Is this right, or even legal?

[BlumiereBleck]

That'd make the news here in the States.

 

[Ekit]

I feel really bad for that kid and that wasn't the right punishment to give by the school. What he needs is someone to talk to who understands and sympathises with him.

 

[cdstephens]

From my point of view, schools are meant to DISCIPLINE, not punish. Discipline means that instead of getting kids into trouble, the school should teach them not to get into trouble in the first place. Yes, sometimes that means handing out a punishment to discipline (like a demerit or detention) to give incentive not to be bad, but having him clean the bathrooms for an entire half of a day?

From what I got from the OP, they specifically decided to give him a harsher punishment because he's a messed up kid. Instead of teaching him not to do those types of things again, the school made his life even worse (hence the crying for his mom back bit). Thus, not only will he have a negative view on school for perhaps the rest of his life if this continues, thus discouraging from trying hard in school and being educated, but he's also more likely to steal again and try to get away with it to spite the school. "The school wronged me, so I'm going to steal from them more."

A more appropriate action would have been to sit down with him, tell him what he did was wrong, and perhaps have a conference between him, a teacher, and his foster parents (though I'm not sure how much he likes his foster parents). Instead, the school forced him onto a path that could worsen his life.

And also, he's a freaking little kid with parent issues. Giving him a harsher punishment than normal is like kicking a kid after you took his parents away from him forever. It's cruel, and will make the kid to hate the school. And as a comparison, I am definitely sure that would have made the news here in the US, and whoever decided to hand out that punishment would have been fired by the government.

Sole negative reinforcement is never the answer; the kid needs positive reinforcement too, which he isn't getting. Skinner said that the most effective way to change behavior is positive reinforcement; this kid is receiving none, and is instead receiving a combination of negative punishment and negative reinforcement by taking away his school time and adding something he doesn't like (though that part is positive punishment I guess).

 

[anthony87]

Well the punishment worked. The child felt punished, and probably learned that what he did was wrong. In that regard, the punishment was fitting, although it may have been a bit excessive, I don't see anything wrong with it. Also, why are the cleaners not cleaning the toilets?

That is, bring back caning and corporal punishment, and National Service.

I don't agree with a teacher hitting a child. A parent hitting their own child is acceptable in my view, but a teacher isn't. Why should teachers get to beat other peoples children? National service I do not see anything wrong with though.

Believe it or not, I do see your point. However, with society the way it is now, parents are too afraid to hit their kids. I was hit as a child, when I desevred it, and I turned out pretty damn well. And that's not bad parenting, my parents were always great to me in normal circumstances, they only hit me when I was being properly naughty (and by 'hit' I mean a slap, not a punch). But because the 'political correctness' crowd have deemed it as being cruel to hit kids, even when naughty, and because we apparently live in a more 'enlightened' time, society deems it unacceptable. That's why I feel that bringing back corporal punishment in places like schools will show people that it's a perfectly valid disciplinary tool, provided it's not used to excess. If teachers can do it, then parents can hardly complain to the government that would in this situation be allowing it to occur, and parents would start to realise the simple fact that a lot of kids today need a good slap, and they shouldn't be afraid to do it if necessary.

That being said, we do live in a society where parents expect the state to raise their kids for them and most crappy parents can't be bothered to discipline their kids anyway, so giving proper discipline at school would also be a bit of a help on that front too...

I was never hit as a child, and I turned out great. Straight-A student. Never get into fights (self-defense excluded). I made it into a prestigious university. What possible positive contribution would violence have made on my childhood?

Now that you mention it, why is it that the only people I ever see advocating corporal punishment were beaten themselves when they were children, while the people against it come from both violent and non-violent backgrounds?

Honestly, parenting really isn't about punishing a child when they do something wrong, it's about actually raising a child properly so that they never make those transgressions in the first place. If you REALLY have to resort to physical violence to get a point across to your kid instead of being able to sit down and talk with them, YOU ARE A BAD PARENT.

OP: As has been mentioned before, this is excessive. Scrubbing sinks would have been more appropriate, and wouldn't be as dangerous as dealing with other peoples' waste.

Straight-A student, never got into fights etc...sounds like you were a good kid, sounds like your parents never needed to physically punish you.

There's an awful lot of kids out there who aren't like that, who don't care about raised voices or being stuck in their room for a day or two. The fact is that the parent waggling their finger whilst saying "Ah now, no more of that" can only work so well on some kids, if it even works at all, whereas spanking is a shock to the system equatable to putting poop on a dogs' nose in order to train it not to shite in the house.

Please be aware that when I say "spanking" I mean exactly that, a couple of light slaps on the ass and only when the whole verbal punishment thing hasn't worked after multiple attempts. If you have to spank your child, then spank away. If you repeatedly take fists and/or objects to your child for the tiniest (sp?) of reasons, THEN I would consider someone to be a bad parent.

OT: The punishment. I like it. Far too many people seem to have the mentality these days that someone should just be excused from punishments these days because of difficult circumstances. Now I'm really sorry for this but to quote Yahtzee:

"Bull Fucking Shit"

If you're a prick, you get punished. If you're not, you don't.

Simples.

 

[Zorg Machine]

Cant speak to the legallity of it as your in the UK, But is it right? Absofriggenloutely.

The MEs completely baffle me. Its like at every turn they are trying to eliminate responsibility, discipline, or any sort of corrective behavior.

Im sorry, but as your example points out, the normal punishments would not work on this kid. However having to clean the toilets absolutely worked on this kid cause it left him sobbing and crying for his mommy. Now, if it evokes that sort of response then what do you think the likelihood that this kid will try this again will be if he now knows that action will generate this sort of reaction.

And again I may not be in the UK but I would highly doubt it would be illegal. Its not even immoral. Kudos to your headmaster, an effective as well as logical discipline to correct the problem. We need MANY more just like you.

It took a lot of effort and time for me to write this with a civilized tone.
A (currently) parentless child is reduced to tears and is humiliated in front of people who probably have no respect for him to start with and you say it is good? How do people have the balls to read about traumatized children in terrible situations getting reduced to tears and say "well it builds character".
Not to mention that this was essentially slave labor as he worked for hours to pay off one pound.

As I said, it takes a lot of effort to write this comment. I know people who (briefly) lived on the streets as children or were removed from their parents and to hear someone commend the people who gave a punishment that would in normal circumstances be considered harsh and unfair to a child like that...THERE ARE NO WORDS. At least not any that would let me continue my stay at the Escapist.

 

[postblitz]

we have a saying where i come from: an uncaught thief is an honest man

 

[Madkipz]

Cant speak to the legallity of it as your in the UK, But is it right? Absofriggenloutely.

The MEs completely baffle me. Its like at every turn they are trying to eliminate responsibility, discipline, or any sort of corrective behavior.

Im sorry, but as your example points out, the normal punishments would not work on this kid. However having to clean the toilets absolutely worked on this kid cause it left him sobbing and crying for his mommy. Now, if it evokes that sort of response then what do you think the likelihood that this kid will try this again will be if he now knows that action will generate this sort of reaction.

And again I may not be in the UK but I would highly doubt it would be illegal. Its not even immoral. Kudos to your headmaster, an effective as well as logical discipline to correct the problem. We need MANY more just like you.

I'm with you on that one. Not liking the water doesn't really give you an excuse, I'm sorry.

I don't know about the law, but I think this is an effective punishment.

Yea but hours of manual labour cleaning toilets and whatnot is worth a significant more than the theft.

I would think instilling the notion of honest paid work would do him loads of good more than punishment ever would.

as in rather than punish the boy with cleaning toilets. Why not find him some more permanent job that he can do for some form of payment. So next time he doesn`t need to steal but can buy the juice.

 

[Rin Little]

I honestly can't make a good decision on this one. I mean the kid's obviously messed up in the head a bit, but you'd think he'd have enough common sense to think "I don't have money, I have to get the free drink even if I don't like it." But even so, if normal punishment doesn't get it through this kids head that something he's doing is wrong then... I really don't know what else there is to do.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

Cant speak to the legallity of it as your in the UK, But is it right? Absofriggenloutely.

The MEs completely baffle me. Its like at every turn they are trying to eliminate responsibility, discipline, or any sort of corrective behavior.

Im sorry, but as your example points out, the normal punishments would not work on this kid. However having to clean the toilets absolutely worked on this kid cause it left him sobbing and crying for his mommy. Now, if it evokes that sort of response then what do you think the likelihood that this kid will try this again will be if he now knows that action will generate this sort of reaction.

And again I may not be in the UK but I would highly doubt it would be illegal. Its not even immoral. Kudos to your headmaster, an effective as well as logical discipline to correct the problem. We need MANY more just like you.

I'm with you on that one. Not liking the water doesn't really give you an excuse, I'm sorry.

I don't know about the law, but I think this is an effective punishment.

Yea but hours of manual labour cleaning toilets and whatnot is worth a significant more than the theft.

So? That's kinda how it works, at least in the adult world. So I'm not really seeing your point

 

[cdstephens]

Cant speak to the legallity of it as your in the UK, But is it right? Absofriggenloutely.

The MEs completely baffle me. Its like at every turn they are trying to eliminate responsibility, discipline, or any sort of corrective behavior.

Im sorry, but as your example points out, the normal punishments would not work on this kid. However having to clean the toilets absolutely worked on this kid cause it left him sobbing and crying for his mommy. Now, if it evokes that sort of response then what do you think the likelihood that this kid will try this again will be if he now knows that action will generate this sort of reaction.

And again I may not be in the UK but I would highly doubt it would be illegal. Its not even immoral. Kudos to your headmaster, an effective as well as logical discipline to correct the problem. We need MANY more just like you.

I'm with you on that one. Not liking the water doesn't really give you an excuse, I'm sorry.

I don't know about the law, but I think this is an effective punishment.

Yea but hours of manual labour cleaning toilets and whatnot is worth a significant more than the theft.

So? That's kinda how it works, at least in the adult world. So I'm not really seeing your point

He's not an adult, and such cannot be treated as such since he's a little kid. Your point is irrelevant.

 

[direkiller]

Ive been hit by a parent in front of a teacher

This happend to a buddy of mine(he stoped living with the parrent shortly after this)

infrot of a 5'3"(yea that short) teacher that is built like a tank(can dunk,bench 300lb so on and so forth)

he pined the parent up to the wall and threatened him if he even heard of that happening again.

small schools are the best nothing happened to the teacher

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Cant speak to the legallity of it as your in the UK, But is it right? Absofriggenloutely.

The MEs completely baffle me. Its like at every turn they are trying to eliminate responsibility, discipline, or any sort of corrective behavior.

Im sorry, but as your example points out, the normal punishments would not work on this kid. However having to clean the toilets absolutely worked on this kid cause it left him sobbing and crying for his mommy. Now, if it evokes that sort of response then what do you think the likelihood that this kid will try this again will be if he now knows that action will generate this sort of reaction.

And again I may not be in the UK but I would highly doubt it would be illegal. Its not even immoral. Kudos to your headmaster, an effective as well as logical discipline to correct the problem. We need MANY more just like you.

It took a lot of effort and time for me to write this with a civilized tone.
A (currently) parentless child is reduced to tears and is humiliated in front of people who probably have no respect for him to start with and you say it is good? How do people have the balls to read about traumatized children in terrible situations getting reduced to tears and say "well it builds character".
Not to mention that this was essentially slave labor as he worked for hours to pay off one pound.

As I said, it takes a lot of effort to write this comment. I know people who (briefly) lived on the streets as children or were removed from their parents and to hear someone commend the people who gave a punishment that would in normal circumstances be considered harsh and unfair to a child like that...THERE ARE NO WORDS. At least not any that would let me continue my stay at the Escapist.

He hasn't actually done it yet, and there is some discussions of whether he does it. But the headteacher will very likely not want to not do it. Just clearing up a little bit of wrong info.

 

[imperialus]

Speaking as a teacher myself... First off, your mother sharing this information with you, and then you turning around and sharing it with the internet is immoral, a violation of her professional code of conduct, and quite possibly illegal in and of itself.

I'm not going to comment on the punishment as I don't know enough about education in England to have an informed opinion. It is not the approach I would have taken, but without actually knowing the student I'm not about to start spouting off ideas about what they 'should' have done.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

Cant speak to the legallity of it as your in the UK, But is it right? Absofriggenloutely.

The MEs completely baffle me. Its like at every turn they are trying to eliminate responsibility, discipline, or any sort of corrective behavior.

Im sorry, but as your example points out, the normal punishments would not work on this kid. However having to clean the toilets absolutely worked on this kid cause it left him sobbing and crying for his mommy. Now, if it evokes that sort of response then what do you think the likelihood that this kid will try this again will be if he now knows that action will generate this sort of reaction.

And again I may not be in the UK but I would highly doubt it would be illegal. Its not even immoral. Kudos to your headmaster, an effective as well as logical discipline to correct the problem. We need MANY more just like you.

I'm with you on that one. Not liking the water doesn't really give you an excuse, I'm sorry.

I don't know about the law, but I think this is an effective punishment.

Yea but hours of manual labour cleaning toilets and whatnot is worth a significant more than the theft.

So? That's kinda how it works, at least in the adult world. So I'm not really seeing your point

He's not an adult, and such cannot be treated as such since he's a little kid. Your point is irrelevant.

My point was that the person was saying that punishment shouldn't ever force a person to do more than they took. That's legally silly.

Furthermore, we don't know how old the person in question is. Are they at least 16? That's, if I'm not mistaken, the age of consent in the UK. If you're able to decide to screw, you're able to act like an adult.

 

[MonsterTess]

I myself work with "problematic children". Schools are there to set rules and boundaries, because let's face it we have rules and boundaries in the world. The second that the school let's these rules and boundaries slip you get children that do whatever they like. However, I am standing alongside the position that the school is NOT there to raise a child.
I see it a lot of times at my work, parents thinking that they can just drop their kid off at school and it will be educated AND raised for them. So the school, however irritating this punishment for this kid might have been, set their rule at no stealing and gave him this punishment. They might have been complete dickheads and may have reported him to the police...
This kid however, if what you say is true about his mother being an alcoholic and so and so, he should get counseling, someone to lay his problems to (but possibly not your mother).
But I think that your mother should also look up the word 'confidentiality'. Because she clearly didn't understand it. Especially since the fact that you are on that school too, you get sensitive information to you and you have the choice to talk about or not. Which you do.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Speaking as a teacher myself... First off, your mother sharing this information with you, and then you turning around and sharing it with the internet is immoral, a violation of her professional code of conduct, and quite possibly illegal in and of itself.

I'm not going to comment on the punishment as I don't know enough about education in England to have an informed opinion. It is not the approach I would have taken, but without actually knowing the student I'm not about to start spouting off ideas about what they 'should' have done.

I tried my hard to keep everyone anonymous, and didn't mean to harm anyones rights. I just wanted to know if this was wrong, right, illegal or legal. Also, this kid will have to do the punishment in school times, so other people are obviously going to know about it, and those people will know him much better than you lot do. I am sorry if this is breaching confidentiality, I will ask for this thread to be removed if this will come to anything.

 

[cdstephens]

Cant speak to the legallity of it as your in the UK, But is it right? Absofriggenloutely.

The MEs completely baffle me. Its like at every turn they are trying to eliminate responsibility, discipline, or any sort of corrective behavior.

Im sorry, but as your example points out, the normal punishments would not work on this kid. However having to clean the toilets absolutely worked on this kid cause it left him sobbing and crying for his mommy. Now, if it evokes that sort of response then what do you think the likelihood that this kid will try this again will be if he now knows that action will generate this sort of reaction.

And again I may not be in the UK but I would highly doubt it would be illegal. Its not even immoral. Kudos to your headmaster, an effective as well as logical discipline to correct the problem. We need MANY more just like you.

I'm with you on that one. Not liking the water doesn't really give you an excuse, I'm sorry.

I don't know about the law, but I think this is an effective punishment.

Yea but hours of manual labour cleaning toilets and whatnot is worth a significant more than the theft.

So? That's kinda how it works, at least in the adult world. So I'm not really seeing your point

He's not an adult, and such cannot be treated as such since he's a little kid. Your point is irrelevant.

My point was that the person was saying that punishment shouldn't ever force a person to do more than they took. That's legally silly.

Furthermore, we don't know how old the person in question is. Are they at least 16? That's, if I'm not mistaken, the age of consent in the UK. If you're able to decide to screw, you're able to act like an adult.

He cried saying he wants his mom back in a child support group, so I presume he's not 16. And also I'm somewhat sure that the punishment of a child matches the crime more than with adults, so that's a generalization on my part.

 

[jawakiller]

Water: it's fucking delicious.

I think this is a little off. Working with limited information, of course, but it sounds like the kid's life has gone seriously downhill and he wanted a bit of pleasure. To use your analogy, it was probably more like stealing a steak because you don't like the tasteless gruel you're forced to live on every day. People need some pleasure, and a child (I'm assuming too young to get a job, but I suppose I don't know for sure) in that kind of situation isn't going to have a lot of legal options. That's not to say he should be let off entirely, but I think the school may have been in the wrong to react as if he needs to be taught as harsh a lesson as possible.

I'm not saying I don't feel bad for the kid. He has a bad life, I feel sorry for him. But the logic is simpler then you think it is. He stole for pleasure not necessity. In other words, he took soda because he wanted one. He didn't need it. That's my argument.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

Cant speak to the legallity of it as your in the UK, But is it right? Absofriggenloutely.

The MEs completely baffle me. Its like at every turn they are trying to eliminate responsibility, discipline, or any sort of corrective behavior.

Im sorry, but as your example points out, the normal punishments would not work on this kid. However having to clean the toilets absolutely worked on this kid cause it left him sobbing and crying for his mommy. Now, if it evokes that sort of response then what do you think the likelihood that this kid will try this again will be if he now knows that action will generate this sort of reaction.

And again I may not be in the UK but I would highly doubt it would be illegal. Its not even immoral. Kudos to your headmaster, an effective as well as logical discipline to correct the problem. We need MANY more just like you.

I'm with you on that one. Not liking the water doesn't really give you an excuse, I'm sorry.

I don't know about the law, but I think this is an effective punishment.

Yea but hours of manual labour cleaning toilets and whatnot is worth a significant more than the theft.

So? That's kinda how it works, at least in the adult world. So I'm not really seeing your point

He's not an adult, and such cannot be treated as such since he's a little kid. Your point is irrelevant.

My point was that the person was saying that punishment shouldn't ever force a person to do more than they took. That's legally silly.

Furthermore, we don't know how old the person in question is. Are they at least 16? That's, if I'm not mistaken, the age of consent in the UK. If you're able to decide to screw, you're able to act like an adult.

He cried saying he wants his mom back in a child support group, so I presume he's not 16. And also I'm somewhat sure that the punishment of a child matches the crime more than with adults, so that's a generalization on my part.

I've known college age people who've done that when under conditions like this. I wouldn't put it past him

Speaking as a teacher myself... First off, your mother sharing this information with you, and then you turning around and sharing it with the internet is immoral, a violation of her professional code of conduct, and quite possibly illegal in and of itself.

I'm not going to comment on the punishment as I don't know enough about education in England to have an informed opinion. It is not the approach I would have taken, but without actually knowing the student I'm not about to start spouting off ideas about what they 'should' have done.

I tried my hard to keep everyone anonymous, and didn't mean to harm anyones rights. I just wanted to know if this was wrong, right, illegal or legal. Also, this kid will have to do the punishment in school times, so other people are obviously going to know about it, and those people will know him much better than you lot do. I am sorry if this is breaching confidentiality, I will ask for this thread to be removed if this will come to anything.

Actually, if anyone related to this issue sees this, you or your mother could get into legal trouble, if my Ethics and Law class taught me anything. I'd recommend asking the thread to be locked, if you want to avoid any potential litigation