Is this right, or even legal?

[Sir Prize]

While this punishment may seem harsh, I'd ask if the kid has done it before. We had a group of sixth form who had been stealing food from the cantee, and at first other students said the punishment was harsh. We later found out that it had been a long-term thing. Some of them were supsended for a few days and that's about it.

No offense but having being bullied by a kid from a 'bad background', sometimes they do know how to use it to get away with things. I'm not saying he did, but keep that in mind that kids are very much able to play the 'feel sorry for me' card. However by the sounds of this that might not be the case.

I don't think they should have a kid cleaning toilets unless it's a been a long-term thing, which they have warned him about. If not, then it's just a £1 drink and this school needs to look at their proities.

 

[JPArbiter]

when I was in fifth grade I defaced the cabinet of my principles office after being brought in for some stupid offense (seriously 15 years later I can not remember) My punishment was an entire semester of after school "detentions" doing all sorts of menial tasks including scrubbing toilets, raking leaves and cleaning the outside of lockers.

it sucked, it was thoroughly humiliating, and I admit I deserved it.

in a serious case of "does the punishment fit the crime" I don't think so with this kid. like you said this was a huge amount of forced labor for a 1$ offense. If he was a chronic offender MAYBE this would be justified.

as far as whether or not it is legal, courts in both Britain and the US have repeatedly upheld that when a child walks through the door of thier school, any rights that they had outside are suspended. so while it may not be legal by letter of the law, the school can get away with it.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Considering there is a large number of states that still allow corporal punishment I doubt something like this would be illegal in the US.

Do you live in the US? I've never seen a state the has legal corporal punishment, that is if it isn't outlawed at the federal level. Either way it's just not done any more, and I've never even heard of some one who got corporal punishment at school. Well who wasn't at least as old as my parents(50+) that is.

 

[v3n0mat3]

What he did was wrong, and I say that the punishment was well-deserved. Legally speaking, the school is right to deliver the punishment. I don't think that it befits the crime, but that's really in the eyes of the beholder. Do I believe in corporal punishment? No, but, I wouldn't think that caning the kid would be a bad idea. Though, since he's mentally messed up already, I don't think that it would be a good idea to give out a physical consequence such as caning or flogging. I do sort of feel bad, in a way, since he's so disadvantaged that he can't afford the drink. But, even still, I don't give quarter to anyone that acts out. Especially criminally so.

 

[WaderiAAA]

I don't believe in punishment at schools. Punishment is the lazy way to correct something because you don't have to work yourself, just tell the guilty one to work. You should strive to make your school a place where people don't have to or want to break the rules - like for instance have water that is acctually drinkable.

If the kid is from a functional family, have a talk with his parents, if not... Just talk to the guy basically. If you can talk to him in a way that makes him understand that you care (which you should), then it will have a much better effect.

 

[McMullen]

A very troublesome and messed up kid had stolen a can of drink from our cafeteria. He's in foster care because his dad left him and his mother is a raging alcoholic (although sober for a few months she couldn't go back to the kid), so pretty much hes a messed up kid. His reasons for stealing the can were that he was thirsty, didn't have any money (for obvious reasons). Those are some pretty good reasons but what he did was still wrong. I'm not here to dwell on the action, i'm here to say about the punishment he was given. The school couldn't suspend him for some reason, and detention would never work on this boy. The punishment the head chose was that he had to clean the toilets for half the school say. It isn't just cleaning the sinks and what not, its cleaning all the toilets, the urine filled urinals and the clogged up sinks (clogged up with god knows what). He has to do this against his will and probably in front of passing kids and teachers. One of the things that saddens me about this kid is that punishment doesn't really affect him in any way shape or form, which basically makes this forced labor that will only worsen the child's view of the school. Sometime after he was told that was his punishment my mother said that he came into the school's support room and burst into tears, he said that all he wanted was his mum back. In my point of view that is probably directly linked to being said that you will have to do the humiliating job of cleaning someones filth.

tl:dr. Messed up kid with a bad home life steals a can of drink. Gets the punishment of cleaning the school toilets for half the school day. Later has a breakdown, crying and pleading for his mum to come back.

So escapees, what do you think of this. Can any people good in law tell me if this type of punishment is even legal in the UK?

[EDIT] Just came to me that in my school, the maximum you can pay for a drink is £1. This kid would never be able to pay that back so the school decided that £1 stolen was enough for him to do hours of labor just because he couldn't pay the school back.

[EDIT numero dos!] To people saying that he will learn that he wont do it again, he wont. My mother has worked with him for a long time and she knows that the only thing that will happen to him is that the next time he does it, he'll try harder not to get caught.

[EDIT numero tres!] Removed the bit about him not liking water since many people here are just using that to say that he deserved it, when truly that fact is very very trivial.

What would you prefer? Do you think he should be given a slap on the wrist instead? Do you think that an absence of consequences will be more effective than harsh penalties in teaching him not to steal? Do you think they should just humor him and his lame excuses? If you claim you stole soda because you're thirsty, in a place that provides numerous access points for free water, you're a fucking thief and liar and should be treated as such.

Why are you focusing so much on his crying for his mom? This kid, from what you've told us, expects to be able to just take what he wants when he wants. When it turns out that the world doesn't like that and will not respond kindly, it doesn't occur to him to change his behavior, and he instead blames his problems on the cruelty of those whom he has wronged. I am not an expert in sociology or psychology, but I am not optimistic that a kid with that worldview will be anything but a criminal, and I really don't think that pretending his behavior is OK now will change his opinion on how unjust the world is when it punishes him later.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I don't believe in punishment at schools. Punishment is the lazy way to correct something because you don't have to work yourself, just tell the guilty one to work. You should strive to make your school a place where people don't have to or want to break the rules - like for instance have water that is acctually drinkable.

If the kid is from a functional family, have a talk with his parents, if not... Just talk to the guy basically. If you can talk to him in a way that makes him understand that you care (which you should), then it will have a much better effect.

Hate to disagree, but talk is cheap. Having an actual punishment dished out says; "these rules aren't just for show." In that regard he does have be made to understand what he did is wrong, and why he's being punished. But just talking about it, especially with a troubled kid isn't going to hammer the point home.

 

[hutchy27]

That wrong, they cannot possibly be allowed to force someone to clean the toilets and especially the ones at a school, which are some of the worst around. Seriously, once at my school there was shit scatter across the wall and piss literally everywhere but the toilet.

That why I go before school. ¬_¬

 

[McMullen]

Stealing is NOT inherently wrong.

...Um, would you care to explain that?

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I live in Canada but I do know that corporal punishment is still legal in some of the southern states. It may not be practiced anymore but its still legal. Its probably similar to what happened in Canda. Even though most provinces banned in during the 90s and the federal government did in 2004 it had already been phased out long before that.

Banned it you meant, sorry my proper speech nazi flared up. Which is funny because I often misspeak and butcher the English language. But that aside. Strong Negative reinforcement is fairly well proven not to work, which is why corporal punishment is phased out. Makes it a sorta blue law in some places if that's the case.

 

[WaderiAAA]

I don't believe in punishment at schools. Punishment is the lazy way to correct something because you don't have to work yourself, just tell the guilty one to work. You should strive to make your school a place where people don't have to or want to break the rules - like for instance have water that is acctually drinkable.

If the kid is from a functional family, have a talk with his parents, if not... Just talk to the guy basically. If you can talk to him in a way that makes him understand that you care (which you should), then it will have a much better effect.

Hate to disagree, but talk is cheap. Having an actual punishment dished out says; "these rules aren't just for show." In that regard he does have be made to understand what he did is wrong, and why he's being punished. But just talking about it, especially with a troubled kid isn't going to hammer the point home.

That's because the point shouldn't be "hammered home", it should be taught - which is something very different.

I truly believe that if the kid thinks his teacher actually cares about him (and it doesn't seem there are enough other people in his life who cares), then the idea that the teacher will be disappointed if you break the rules will affect you more than the prospect of having to clean bathrooms if you get caught. That's just human nature. I don't know if it is something the kids thinks to himself, it might be on a more subconcious level, but I'm pretty sure he thinks "those people don't care about me, why should I care about their rules?"

 

[Abanic]

Is it legal? Ask a lawyer, not the Internet.

Is it right? Yes.

If he had stolen basic sustenance (bread, meat, veggies, water, etc) then most people wouldn't have a problem, because his situation would be taken into account and nothing would come of it. BUT, he did NOT steal a basic necessity of life, he stole a can of soda - a non-necessity. The Jean Valjean argument goes right out the window.

Does the child need to be punished for this action? Of course. So now the issue becomes: what punishment will instill in him the urge to not do this again? If suspension isn't an option, then you look at detention. Detention isn't different enough from his normal life to have any impact on his future decisions, so the school wisely tossed that option out. Did he want to clean? No? Perfect! A punishment can't be something he WANTS to do or else it becomes ineffective. The only thing I would have added to his punishment was a little recorder repeating the message:

"You're being punished because of the decisions you have made."

You add this to reinforce the fact that he was the one who was responsible for what was happening to him at that point: if he hadn't stolen the soda then he wouldn't have to clean toilets. There is a cause/effect relationship here that the child obviously hasn't grasped yet.

The first measure of a punishment needs to be: "IS IT EFFECTIVE?" not "Is it too much?"

Now, should his environment be taken into account to determine if he should be disciplined? Absolutely not. Part of the issue here is that BECAUSE of his environment he has not received adequate discipline. The proper response here is not to give him even less than what little he already received, but to establish a proper level and to maintain consistency to help this child grow into a fully-functioning adult. EVERY child has issue growing up, some have more than others, but the test of a child is to overcome whatever issues they have experienced and become a well-balanced human being.

He burst into tears NOT because he was being punished but because of his life situation. He probably DID want his mommy back, but he needs to get it through his head that it's not gonna happen - no matter how much he misbehaves, cries, screams, or bitches. He needs to understand that he was dealt a tough hand but he has to play it as best as he can. I think ToastiestZombie needs to go scrub some toilets and realize that it's not "degrading" or "humiliating", it's not pleasant but it's a necessity of modern society and somebody has to do it.

 

[JoesshittyOs]

School Cafeterias are literally where all my money used to go to until I decided that it wasn't worth it.

People I know ended up sometimes spending around 80$ a week there.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

That's because the point shouldn't be "hammered home", it should be taught - which is something very different.

I truly believe that if the kid thinks his teacher actually cares about him (and it doesn't seem there are enough other people in his life who cares), then the idea that the teacher will be disappointed if you break the rules will affect you more than the prospect of having to clean bathrooms if you get caught. That's just human nature. I don't know if it is something the kids thinks to himself, it might be on a more subconcious level, but I'm pretty sure he thinks "those people don't care about me, why should I care about their rules?"

The hole in that logic is that most people don't give a damn what others think, that's real human nature. If you can't reinforce the message that the rules are there for a reason then the lesson is not taught. This is especially true with children. If there is no consequence for breaking the rules, or in a broader sense the law, then why even have it? He most certainly committed a crime, theft is against the law, and there fore the punishment makes sense. Sitting him down and talking to him is an important part, especially because he is a child. Still you need a punishment to back up the message. That being: if you break the rules/law then you get punished for it.

 

[hiks89]

...Justice

 

[Robert Ewing]

Serving the community in a certain way to help right the wrong of his destruction of the community is absolutely fucking fine.

I don't give a shit if he cries for 2 years straight, that kid stole, so he has to pay. If he goes through life thinking that he can do this sort of thing, he's going to be far more troubled than he is now unless they put a stop to it, and put him on the straight and narrow.

 

[AlloAllo]

...

That... well, that's kind of complicated.

Now, let me say that if it happened here, the rule would pretty much be "dude, bring the money tomorrow" for a couple of days and then a big shrug followed by a "whatever"- and I went to a private Catholic school, so you can imagine.

Doesn't he have friends? I mean, I spent High School asking my friends some food with the biggest puppy dog eyes ever, surely he could try to use the same approach?

Uh, regarding the issue. Well... yes. Stealing is bad, sure. But that isn't going to teach him anything, other than school sucks and that he will never be able to talk to anyone again lest he be called "Stealy Pee-Spot-Spot". Which is EXACTLY the kind of thing you want to teach to a kid that has problems with people.

I don't know? Talking to him seems a reasonable idea, and if he continues a punishment is the way to go but- all this fucking mess for ONE POUND? Jesus Christ, peope. Tell him that he can't do it and make him bring the money the next day. You incredible wankers.

The hell were they going to do if he destroyed a classroom, shoot him in the face?

 

[WaderiAAA]

That's because the point shouldn't be "hammered home", it should be taught - which is something very different.

I truly believe that if the kid thinks his teacher actually cares about him (and it doesn't seem there are enough other people in his life who cares), then the idea that the teacher will be disappointed if you break the rules will affect you more than the prospect of having to clean bathrooms if you get caught. That's just human nature. I don't know if it is something the kids thinks to himself, it might be on a more subconcious level, but I'm pretty sure he thinks "those people don't care about me, why should I care about their rules?"

The hole in that logic is that most people don't give a damn what others think, that's real human nature. If you can't reinforce the message that the rules are there for a reason then the lesson is not taught. This is especially true with children. If there is no consequence for breaking the rules, or in a broader sense the law, then why even have it? He most certainly committed a crime, theft is against the law, and there fore the punishment makes sense. Sitting him down and talking to him is an important part, especially because he is a child. Still you need a punishment to back up the message. That being: if you break the rules/law then you get punished for it.

Okay, so I guess we disagree on the whole human nature thing.

Your statement that people really don't care what other people thinks is kinda contradicted by the fact that you care to reply to something a guy on the internet who you don't know at all has to say. If someone don't care what other people think about them, then it is usually because they don't feel like people give a damn. Sadly, that is often the case, but it can also be changed at any point. If not, this kid will never feel included in society and will end up having a really miserable life. Punishment won't stop him from criminal activities, because there is always the chance that he just doesn't get caught - and what does he have to lose?