Is this right, or even legal?

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

snip

After re-reading the OP and the rest of the thread, I am actually starting to agree in this case. However, too often I see the "It's Stealing. Therefore, it's wrong" cop-out. It just bugs me when people refuse to think about something.

 

[Signa]

I don't know why this is even a question. If crying has become a way to make someone feel remorse for handing out a punishment the crying person rightly deserved, then I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

 

[Robert Ewing]

Serving the community in a certain way to help right the wrong of his destruction of the community is absolutely fucking fine.

I don't give a shit if he cries for 2 years straight, that kid stole, so he has to pay. If he goes through life thinking that he can do this sort of thing, he's going to be far more troubled than he is now unless they put a stop to it, and put him on the straight and narrow.

Well even though I'm not a follower of the "straight and narrow" philosophy, you make a good point. You have to live within the law. You are absolutely right, for a crime like theft, community service is perfect. What it comes down to is he screwed up, broke the law, paid his debt to society, and he'll get over it. Hell he'll learn an important lesson from it.

Exactly, and never, EVER underestimate the lengths a person will go to, to get out of a punishment, or anything that doesn't achieve incredibly high levels of instant gratification.

Given death, or a good days work for free. I'm sure a lot of 'troubled' kids would gladly choose death.

 

[McMullen]

I don't know why this is even a question. If crying has become a way to make someone feel remorse for handing out a punishment the crying person rightly deserved, then I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

I think you just made the most sane and concise comment on this whole thread. I can't believe how many here are treating this as unfair punishment.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

Stealing is NOT inherently wrong.

...Um, would you care to explain that?

It is my belief that blanket statements ALWAYS have an exception and the statement that "Stealing is wrong" falls under this.

Who is stealing? Who is being stolen from? Who needs it more? Who really earned it? Who would do better with it? What good might come out of one person or the other having it?

All of these things (and more) must be factored in when deciding whether an act is wrong or not.

Yes, stealing is [i/]usually[/i] wrong, but in some cases it may not be. Thus, we CANNOT conclude that stealing is always, and inherently, wrong.

Stealing is ALWAYS wrong, it doesn't matter what the motives are, or who could it have helped more. The fact is when you take something that isn't yours you've done somebody wrong. Somebody, or several somebodies had to pay and/or be payed for that item. You just taking it no matter from who, or what the motivation is doesn't make it right.

If that is what you believe, then I cannot change that.

However, I think that NOTHING is wrong by default. There is an exception to [b/]every[/b] rule and this is no different.

I would like to mention that I have come around somewhat is this case. The kid didn't need it, he wanted it and had no good reason to take it.

 

[AlloAllo]

I do remember with sadness the Laboratory we didn't get because we lost one euro.

Either that's really bad sarcasm, or the saddest thing I've ever heard.

You know what they say, de gustibus non disputandum est! 8D

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Would it encourage him to do it again? I don't know.

What I do know is that I had a couple of pretty shitty times in my childhood. Not as bad as this kid's, but still bad. And I also know that if someone made me do a humiliating job for what probably feels like a justified and miniscule crime I would have started resenting them pretty quickly.

I wasn't a bad kid, but being treated like shit would have made me into one.

And I also wouldn't be surprised if that kid is beginning to silently hate authority. To him, the people who took him away from his mum and the people who make his life suck harder in school might as well be lumped under 'authority figures' and teaching somebody to hate those in never going to do them any good.


I'm not saying that he should have just been allowed off with no mention of this ever again. But the situation could have been handled soooo much better than this.

I can agree with that. I guess it all depends on how old the kid is. If he's young, A stern warning or maybe detention would probably suffice but if this kid was middle school or older... I wouldn't go easy on him. So perhaps the severity should be chosen in relation to age, not circumstance.

I've been through shitty times as a kid but I'm glad nobody let me off. Learned how not to get caught thanks to them. See, teach a kid a harsh lesson the first time and they'll make sure they're never caught again. Then if they steal something as an adult, they'll try not to get caught, remembering how much it sucked. That's a good lesson.

I've been subject to some pretty unfair punishments, this one seems fair to me. It's not like when I went to school in eighth grade, cross dressed, and was made to vacuum, sweep and cleen the entire eighth grade wing. All because the dean thought I was just being rebellious, and she didn't approve of a boy wearing a skirt.

In fact it went to screwing up my elective classes, I was taken out of a technology class, and put in to home economics. Though the kid I switched places with was pretty glad, and Home Ec freaking rocked. I was even forced to dress down for PE, and shower afterwords alone. Because I couldn't well dress down with the girls, and the teachers didn't want the boys teasing me for wearing lingerie.

At any rate he bought and paid for his suffering when he stole the soda, and I can't blame the head master for leveling that kind of punishment.

 

[AlloAllo]

I've been subject to some pretty unfair punishments, this one seems fair to me. It's not like when I went to school in eighth grade, cross dressed, and was made to vacuum, sweep and cleen the entire eighth grade wing. All because the dean thought I was just being rebellious, and she didn't approve of a boy wearing a skirt.

In fact it went to screwing up my elective classes, I was taken out of a technology class, and put in to home economics. Though the kid I switched places with was pretty glad, and Home Ec freaking rocked. I was even forced to dress down for PE, and shower afterwords alone. Because I couldn't well dress down with the girls, and the teachers didn't want the boys teasing me for wearing lingerie.

...

To be completely fair, everything seems pretty fair if you're comparing it to that. Holy shit, dude.

 

[Signa]

I don't know why this is even a question. If crying has become a way to make someone feel remorse for handing out a punishment the crying person rightly deserved, then I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

I think you just made the most sane and concise comment on this whole thread. I can't believe how many here are treating this as unfair punishment.

Too bad it's 5 pages in and no one will read it.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I've been subject to some pretty unfair punishments, this one seems fair to me. It's not like when I went to school in eighth grade, cross dressed, and was made to vacuum, sweep and cleen the entire eighth grade wing. All because the dean thought I was just being rebellious, and she didn't approve of a boy wearing a skirt.

In fact it went to screwing up my elective classes, I was taken out of a technology class, and put in to home economics. Though the kid I switched places with was pretty glad, and Home Ec freaking rocked. I was even forced to dress down for PE, and shower afterwords alone. Because I couldn't well dress down with the girls, and the teachers didn't want the boys teasing me for wearing lingerie.

...

To be completely fair, everything seems pretty fair if you're comparing it to that. Holy shit, dude.

Well no one said being transgendered is easy!

 

[mrwoo6]

A lot of you guys are complete missing the point,

the OP ins't saying that the child shouldn't be punished, hes saying that child was punished unfairly.If someone does steal something the justice system changes the punishment regarding the severity of the crime and the motivation for it. This child stole $1 pound, he was then made to work for half a school day, that's 3 hours here, and in terms of work that more than pays off the cost.

He shouldn't have had such a harsh punishment.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I'd have refused point blank. They can't force you into doing manual labour as a punishment, only a court can do that.

Seriously, I'd have told them to jog the fuck on!

And to answer your question, as far as I know. No it isn't legal and I really don't think the punishment is either fitting or proportionate to the crime. Detention would have sufficed.

Well if he refused couldn't they have expelled his ass? That'd make it pretty hard to get in to another school at any rate...

Besides that if it's classified as community service, and yes they could push it because he did commit a real crime... Well then wouldn't it be legal? Would you rather have him sent to juvenile hall/detention/jail? I'd rather take the in school community service and not have a pre-adulthood crime on my record.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

tl:dr. Messed up kid with a bad home life steals a can of drink. Gets the punishment of cleaning the school toilets for half the school day.
So escapees, what do you think of this. Can any people good in law tell me if this type of punishment is even legal in the UK?

Had similar punishments when I was young. Nothing illegal/immoral here.

This is the problem
Later has a breakdown, crying and pleading for his mum to come back.


The child needs support and care badly. The punishment was right, but a little harsh. It's the reason that should be dealt with - and fast.

 

[AlloAllo]

Well no one said being transgendered is easy!

Quite, if the whole fuss about Chaz Bono is of any indication.

Personally I'd pay for somebody to tell them that in Italy there's a transexual in the Parliament. Oh, their faces.

...But we're going Out of Topic. Sorry!

Yep, not fair, but this is way too harsh for just one pound. You really want to make him clean something, make him help the janitor with the canteen... though I still think that it's too much for a soda.

I'm now going to disappear.

 

[maddawg IAJI]

Yes, they can do it. No, the punishment does not fit the crime, but I think the punishment is meant to teach him a lesson. Also, doesn't your school have public drinking fountains he could have used?

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I don't know why this is even a question. If crying has become a way to make someone feel remorse for handing out a punishment the crying person rightly deserved, then I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

I think you just made the most sane and concise comment on this whole thread. I can't believe how many here are treating this as unfair punishment.

Some of us read that far. And agree.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

A lot of you guys are complete missing the point,

the OP ins't saying that the child shouldn't be punished, hes saying that child was punished unfairly.If someone does steal something the justice system changes the punishment regarding the severity of the crime and the motivation for it. This child stole $1 pound, he was then made to work for half a school day, that's 3 hours here, and in terms of work that more than pays off the cost.

He shouldn't have had such a harsh punishment.

The point is he wasn't only paying for the soda he stole, but also the community damage it caused. I could steal a soda from a continence store and get hit with a 500 dollar fine for it. That translates to 50 hours of community service where I live. Was it too harsh? Not really, he had to do 3 hours of work to pay back his debt to society. That's a pretty light sentence, cause even where I live juveniles still have to do community service. Even if it's only half the time an adult would do.

 

[Silva]

Cleaning the toilets is quite likely what a kid who steals stuff all the time may end up doing after school, so in a way this would act as a reality check for him. But on the other hand, I'm not sure if it's a hygienic punishment for a child to be given. Quite likely, it is in breach of government regulations to do this to him.

I'd also like to point out that the child's age does make a huge difference on the validity and justice of the punishment, so it should be in the OP.

Not only that, but it IS an extreme punishment for the simple act of stealing a can of drink. There's even syndromes for this which he could potentially be diagnosed as having, such as kleptomania, and these tend to reduce the severity of thievery charges in many different countries. For a good reason as well.

Let the punishment fit the crime - I'd say that if the school really has to be the system that punishes him, make him clean the cafeteria in the school, after hours if he wishes, and save the cleaning lady some work there. That way, it's slightly less humiliating, definitely more hygienic, and also somewhat of a reminder of where he stole the item from. If he steals something from there while on the job, that's when I'd be saying either it's kleptomania or just a kid who needs to clean toilets.