Is this sexist?

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Owen Robertson

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Jul 26, 2011
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I was thinking about how Katniss in the Hunger Games Trilogy is painted as a victim. She has no control over the events and grudgingly enters the tournament to save her sister. She gives her self up for dead and prepares for the worst. I drew some connections to what I'd see from the trailers for "The Last Of Us" where the young woman (I don't know character names yet) seems scared and powerless. A victim. I don't think they are weak characters by any means (and I have high hopes for The Last Of Us to do something with the female lead) but I can't help but see a similarity. Is this a bad thing that studios, publishers, etc might be doing (weakening female characters simply because they are female, rather than for artistic effect) or am I reading too deep into this, thinking it will make a generation of women weak, and coming out looking like a sexist?

1) Do you think this a trend or has this always happened?
2) Do you think it's a bad thing or could some good come of it?
3) Is it sexist to think this may influence young women looking for role models?

I'm kinda tired so if this is too "all over the place" I apologize. I'll clean it up if it's a problem.
 

Tanis

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Aug 30, 2010
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I think 'Hunger Games' is a BAD example.

Look at 'Twilight'.

It's basically about a pedophile vampire who never grew up wanting to 'get it on' with a chick whose main motivation is to serve whatever male tells her to be his.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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Owen Robertson said:
no...its jsut over thinking it, look at "the running man"

on the other end of stuff like this we have to stop making a big deal over female charachters
 

Screamarie

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I don't really know if this is a trend but "victim" females is kind of a often thing in works of any fiction, whether the writer is male or female...It's part of the reason why I quit liking female characters a long time ago because they're A. Victim, B. Bad-Ass ***** Who Needs NO Evil Man! or C. Saint. Don't get me wrong, if I find a female character I like, I like her, but I generally don't enjoy books, movies, or games with female leads for the reasons stated above.

Anyways, "victim" characters can be good. Sometimes you need a victim to make a good story, especially if you're trying to get a point across. Usually though a "victim" can be seen as good as long as they, in the end, find some strength and fight back (this doesn't mean they necessarily have to WIN). If they're being a victim and doing absolutely nothing to stop being a victim then you better have a very good reason for why they don't/can't or you're just making an utterly useless character that only reacts to their situation instead of ever acting on it.

As for the whole influence thing...well I think it's probably sexist if you think it could ONLY influence females, that somehow males would never be able to be susceptible to the subtle imagery and message that these stories give. The thing about it though is that different things influence different people in different ways. I watched the same disney princess crap that my friends did, but instead of wanting the tiara and ballgown like people would a little girl might want...I wanted the swords and to fight the dragons....Don't get me wrong, I still wanted a prince, I just wasn't going to let him leave me behind at the castle.

Also, as to the "The Last of Us" I think the girl is a bit younger than Katniss (though I could be wrong, I've never read the books or seen the movie) so it might be understandable that she needs more care...but at the same time the young girl (from what I've seen in previews) is actually a great help to the male character you play as. She's smart, quick, and plays a major role if NaughtyDog is to be believed.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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Screamarie said:
.It's part of the reason why I quit liking female characters a long time ago because they're A. Victim, B. Bad-Ass ***** Who Needs NO Evil Man! or C. Saint. Don't get me wrong, if I find a female character I like, I like her, but I generally don't enjoy books, movies, or games with female leads for the reasons stated above.
I generally don't find alot of female charachters to fit into all thease neat catagories
 

Pink Gregory

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Unless you know the intent, then it's hard to say.

As for the Last of Us example, could be more to do with the fact that she's young as opposed to a child.
 

Keoul

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I think you're being unfair :L
Any "victim" female character being shown in media is constantly being called an example of sexism. Why can't their "victim" aspect be a part of their character? I agree with Tanis that the "Hunger Games" is a terrible example (it's a teen novel for christs sake it's in no way meant to be realistic) but the girl from "The Last of Us"? it's not even out yet! it could be part of her character development into a strong independent character or become a pivotal plot point for the game. At least wait till the game is released before making assumptions, she's even carrying a rifle on the cover...
Owen Robertson said:
1) Do you think this a trend or has this always happened?
2) Do you think it's a bad thing or could some good come of it?
3) Is it sexist to think this may influence young women looking for role models?
1) It's always been happening, there will always be victims regardless of gender.
2) It has to be pulled off well enough, time has moved on and just having girls as damsels in distress isn't as appealing, having a deep story line is far better and a "victim" back story could give characters more depth.
3) Absolutely, believing girls to be that simple-minded and easily impressionable is pretty sexist. I doubt any girl would think "Damn! that victim looks really cool! I want to be a victim!".
 

Abomination

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I am looking forward to the new Tomb Raider as I can see Lara's progression being very similar to Jason Brody's of Far Cry III.

The whole sexism thing has pushed into serious knee-jerk territory. The very moment or concept of something bad happening to a female is suddenly sexist somehow. Writers are being hamstrung, forced to walk on eggshells and fearing insulting the increasingly loud and dominating presence of the female demographic fanbase in gaming media.

Of course there was the whole threat of sexual assault that got everyone?s' collective knickers in a knot, yet one of Jason Brody's male friends is implied was raped and how much blow up was there about that? Virtually none, of course. And it was only the typical "rape is bad" (and should never be mentioned anywhere, ever, in any media) folks banging their well-worn drum about it anyway.

Why did I bring up Lara? Because as far as I can see the whole thing about the new Tomb Raider is Lara isn't suddenly some amazing gymnast, parkour champion, supermodel, female-batman, Trinity gunfight stunt-double - she's fit but otherwise pretty normal. She's also a victim from the get go and overcomes.

Lara, like Hunger Games, isn't a victim BECAUSE she's a woman, she's a victim who HAPPENS to be a woman. The protagonist could have easily have been male and their love interest could have easily been female and the same story could have been told.
 

MetalMagpie

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Owen Robertson said:
Is this sexist?
If you have to ask the question, it's probably not. ;)

In some stories, the lead character is a bad-ass mother-f**ker (e.g. Alice in Resident Evil). In other stories, they start out as more of a victim, but may end up becoming a hero anyway (e.g. Richard Mayhew in Neverwhere). Both are totally valid for both genders.

Worth thinking about: People have been worrying about the corrupting influence of fiction since books first achieved widespread distribution. Society hasn't crumbled yet.

The more you look at history, the more you realise the things we worry about don't actually change. Back in the 1500s (when Shakespeare was writing his plays) a grumpy Londoner wrote a letter to a friend complaining that traffic in the city had become "intolerable" and that young people were too lazy to walk anywhere anymore. My granny says exactly the same things now!
 

Rawne1980

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Owen Robertson said:
"The Last Of Us" where the young woman (I don't know character names yet) seems scared and powerless. A victim.
That might have something to do with her being 14.

How would most 14 year olds, male or female, handle a hostile situation where they could die at any second?

That's right, they would be scared shitless and powerless ..... a victim.
 

IronMit

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Jul 24, 2012
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There's a Danger of over-compensating and making every female character Michelle Rodriguez to satisfy the 'omg it's sexist brigade'.

The 14 year old girl in the 'last of us' helps the main character out by causing a distraction and throwing a brick at someone's face. She seems more useful then 'scared and powerless'. Maybe she has a character arc? maybe she has the capacity to show both bravery and fear. Or maybe she's a boring blank slate. None of these will be remotely sexist.
 

Comocat

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Did you read the book or watch the movie even? She doesn't grudgingly enter the tournament, she does so to save her sister. The entire series is about her making hard choices to survive while at the same time coming of age. When I was 14 I was struggling with writing coherent paragraphs, not being hunted by my fellow classmates.
 

Legion

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Oct 2, 2008
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So it doesn't matter that all of the other tributes are in the same boat, half of them male? How can it be sexist when neither gender is being discriminated against?

Not to mention the fact that she is the toughest and most capable of all of them. She kept her area half-fed, is capable of hunting, using a bow and generally surviving, despite not having any real training beyond having to learn it to survive. She willingly enters the "games" to save her sister, so is not victimised.

Honestly, it's a very poor example.
 

Olikar

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Sep 4, 2012
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The Hunger Games is a bad example because, if I recall correctly, the male protagonist is shown to be considerably weaker than Katniss in almost all respects.
 

Angie7F

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Nov 11, 2011
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i think sexism is a flawed concept because people have differences and differences really do exist.
pretending that they do not exisit make the world a very bland and boring place.
 
Apr 24, 2008
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MetalMagpie said:
Owen Robertson said:
Is this sexist?
If you have to ask the question, it's probably not. ;)
Yes. Let's not try to manufacture contraversy.

Abomination said:
I am looking forward to the new Tomb Raider as I can see Lara's progression being very similar to Jason Brody's of Far Cry III.

The whole sexism thing has pushed into serious knee-jerk territory. The very moment or concept of something bad happening to a female is suddenly sexist somehow. Writers are being hamstrung, forced to walk on eggshells and fearing insulting the increasingly loud and dominating presence of the female demographic fanbase in gaming media.
Seems like a fair comparison, and I agree with the sentiments.

Anyone can be the victim of an attack, so how is an attempted rape on Ms Croft sexist? If we're talking about gender representation in that scene, I think that men are being depicted in a far worse light... Don't you? The whole thing was tantamount to nothing more than a storm in a teacup. And if I remember correctly, the devs buckled, apologised and removed it. In which case, well done, you've managed to impose your own brand of censorship on someone. It would be nice if we weren't dressing up this bullshit as if it was somehow enlightened.
 

Entitled

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Hunger Games is clean. Context is important. It is a YA novel, written mainly for a female audience, with Katniss being an identifiable heroic protagonist. Yes, first there is conflict that forces her to fight, like in most stories. In fact, there are a bunch of stories wit the exact same plot type, The Running Man, Battle Royale, etc, with male protagonists being forced to fight each other in the same way.

In fact, I would say that even Battle Royale itself is more likely to be sexist against women, after all, there, the male hero's love interest was a wounded gazelle needed to be protected all along, while every second other girl in the class was in love with him, the only major female antagonist was entirely defined by her sexuality.

Compared to that, at lest Hunger Games continues to revolve around the female hero as a three-dimensional protagonist who is the cneter of her own story, makes her own choices, and has her own love interests (as opposed to be her being a love interest).

Abomination said:
Lara, like Hunger Games, isn't a victim BECAUSE she's a woman, she's a victim who HAPPENS to be a woman. The protagonist could have easily have been male and their love interest could have easily been female and the same story could have been told.
There is one problem with that:

"She's definitely the hero but? you're kind of like her helper. When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character."

- Ron Rosenberg, Tomb Raider producer.
Maybe that one guy way just an ass, and the rest of the writers well-intentioned. If he wouldn't have said that, I would agree with you, I would say that we can give the studio the benefit of doubt, that Lara just happens to be female.

But they sure aren't making it easy, with making comments about how her feminity is an important part of her needing to be helped.

As a general rule, it's not individual works that are sexist (unless they are very blatant), but trends. We can talk about how LIKELY a work is to contribute to sexism, based on how much it conforms to trends, but that's not the same thing as "the writers of this are horrible people".

A film is not sexist for failing the Bechdel test (it might just HAPPEN to have a lot of important male characters), but the trend that SO MANY movies fail the Bechdel test is sexist. A damsel in distress is not sexist, she might as well be a dude. But it is a sexist trend when "damsel in distress" is a well-established cliché, while a "dude in distress" is a rare, self-conscious subversion of it. It's not sexist to call out a female public figure for being fat/old/ugly, if you might as well say it about a male (Gabe Newell is fat, lol). But when any less-than-model-like woman appears in the news and there is a flood of comments judging her entirely through her physical attractiveness, that is a sexist trend.

In that sense, The Last of Us is also suspect of following a bad trend. Along with The Walking Dead (game), Taken (movie), and similar stories, that are all about a stubbled, middle-aged hardasses trying to protect a young girl. It seems to be a variation on the romantic "damsel in distress", replacing it with a daughter figure.

It doesn't CONFIRM that either of those are specifically sexist, it's only Tomb Raider that's producer was foolish enough to gloat about how consciously they are using a sexist trend. The rest of them are just suspicious.
 

FIREY950

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Dec 17, 2012
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The thing about it though is that different things influence different people in different ways. I watched the same disney princess crap that my friends did, but instead of wanting the tiara and ballgown like people would a little girl might want...I wanted the swords and to fight the dragons....Don't get me wrong, I still wanted a prince, I just wasn't going to let him leave me behind at the castle.
 

bojackx

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I agree with Tanis, The Hunger Games is a really bad example. Katniss was hardly a weak character, and seemed a lot more helpful than the guy she had to keep saving.

As for weakening female characters, I'd say that it's easier to make women appear weaker because that's how it always was back before everything had to be looked and questioned about whether its content was sexist or not.
 

Doom972

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Dec 25, 2008
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Personally, I think that this trend of finding and attacking stuff that are presumably offensive to females or sexist enforces the notion that women are powerless victims (and they aren't). Women are just as powerful as men and they can deal with stereotypical characters without knights in shining armor rushing to defend them.

Writers think up characters, some of which may conform with stereotypes while others may not, and they aren't obligated to balance out the stereotypes we've gotten used to (or sick of).

We have centuries old stories about powerful male heroes and fragile female victims. The idea that both sexes are equal is, from a historical point of view, new. It'll take some time before this stereotype, like many others, will go away.

I'd love to see more stories about powerful, confident, yet feminine female characters, as right now there are very little of them.