It Dawned on me Today... [Skyrim]

[Agayek]

Nah the Empire wants to kick the Thalmor out, they're just biding time and building up forces and some compromise has to be made so the Thalmor don't own them, and outlawing the worship of Talos is that compromise.

The Stormcloaks are just stupid, fighting against the Empire their god created? That's ridiculous like if Christians just decided to nuke the entire planet if Christianity got banned.

Actually, both of them are pretty fucking stupid.

The Empire could have won the war if they'd pushed for it, instead of settling for the Concordiat. They were finally winning, and the Thalmor sued for peace so they could recover before resuming the murder.

The Empire was pretty damn idiotic for not pushing their advantage while they had it.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Actually, both of them are pretty fucking stupid.

The Empire could have won the war if they'd pushed for it, instead of settling for the Concordiat. They were finally winning, and the Thalmor sued for peace so they could recover before resuming the murder.

The Empire was pretty damn idiotic for not pushing their advantage while they had it.

How is having all your cities on destroyed, your land in ruins, no legion at greater then 50% strength, while the thalmor had untouched lands/cities and a unknown number of forces, left an advantage?

 

[Jynthor]

How will they pull the Dragon-break off? The more I think about it, the weirder it gets.
Let's say you sided with the Stormcloaks, Captain Bailey is dead, but, voila Dragon-Break and now Bailey lives again because he also won at the same time, so, I guess Bailey now has a clone, one of them dead. Will the same go for all soldiers who died during the civil war? Will all those soldiers magically pop back in the world? Who will be Jarl of (random city)Whiterun?
Yeah, it's probably best if they shelf this idea.

The same way they pulled of the Dragon-Break in daggerfall. Not tell you jack shit.

they will never make mention of who was Jarl of what around that time in Skyrim in future games.

All it will be is "shit happened and no one really remembers what exactly happened" like in all previous dragon-breaks.

I suppose, they really got themselves in a bind with this. I'm looking forward to seeing what Bethesda will do.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I suppose, they really got themselves in a bind with this. I'm looking forward to seeing what Bethesda will do.

This is the Elder Scrolls series, were opening up your menu, and pausing time, to drink a potion is something that actually happens.

Where upon death great heroes just load up savegames and rewind time, creating mini dragon-breaks.

Where the construction kit is an actual thing that people, in the game universe, use.

There is no amount of things they could do.

there is no such thing as a Dues Ex Machina, and thus there is no limit.

 

[GonzoGamer]

Those who feud for a place of power are usually self important douche-bags. Look at the presidential primaries.
I'd be cool with the Stormcloaks if it weren't for the whole white supremacist thing.
But they're all kind of dicks. So keep the Jagged Crown for yourself if you want.

 

[Agayek]

How is having all your cities on destroyed, your land in ruins, no legion at greater then 50% strength, while the thalmor had untouched lands/cities and a unknown number of forces, left an advantage?

There's a few advantages they had:

1) They'd just won a major victory in repulsing the Thalmor from the Imperial City, which would have dramatic impact on the morale of both forces

2) At this point, Hammerfell still had their back (and considering that Hammerfell fought and won against the elves, that's a rather significant advantage)

3) The Empire knew the territory much better, and had a numerical advantage (temporarily at least)

4) And any aggressive moves would take the elves completely by surprise, enough so to at minimum force them out of Cyrodil.

There were valid reasons to sign the Concordat (not the least of which is that it would be a very costly war either way), but they went with it when the war had finally turned their way. It was a silly move, especially considering the fact that they'd been invaded and therefore their recruiting efforts would be higher than ever.

 

[Jynthor]

I suppose, they really got themselves in a bind with this. I'm looking forward to seeing what Bethesda will do.

This is the Elder Scrolls series, were opening up your menu, and pausing time, to drink a potion is something that actually happens.

Where upon death great heroes just load up savegames and rewind time, creating mini dragon-breaks.

Where the construction kit is an actual thing that people, in the game universe, use.

There is no amount of things they could do.

there is no such thing as a Dues Ex Machina, and thus there is no limit.

You mentioned that before, where ever did you get that from?

 

[SajuukKhar]

There's a few advantages they had:

1) They'd just won a major victory in repulsing the Thalmor from the Imperial City, which would have dramatic impact on the morale of both forces

2) At this point, Hammerfell still had their back (and considering that Hammerfell fought and won against the elves, that's a rather significant advantage)

3) The Empire knew the territory much better, and had a numerical advantage (temporarily at least)

4) And any aggressive moves would take the elves completely by surprise, enough so to at minimum force them out of Cyrodil.

There were valid reasons to sign the Concordat (not the least of which is that it would be a very costly war either way), but they went with it when the war had finally turned their way. It was a silly move, especially considering the fact that they'd been invaded and therefore their recruiting efforts would be higher than ever.

1. a morale boost that means nothing considering any attempt on Valenwood, Elsweyr, or Alinor would result in them outrunning their supply lines as nearly the whole of the imperial province, the place all supplies would have to go to, was destroyed.

2. the entire southern-coast of hammerfell had been taken, most of the Redguard's cities were either gone or captured. They aren't really wouldn't be that much of a help resource wise or strength wise.

3. Actually since all of The empire's blades had been killed the empire had been effectively blind in Valenwood, elsweyr and Alinor for years, they knew nothing of the enemy's land. furthermore they had no idea on the thalmor's numbers.

4. That is debatable the thalmors wanting peace shows that they at least considered that The empire might attack.

 

[doomspore98]

Hah! I dont have to worry about racist assholes or elitest assholes any more.
I helped out the stormcloaks but always had my own plans that were being set in motion.
They basically consisted of waiting for the right time to murder ulfric and take his throne.
I did this after his big speech and challanged him to fair combat as is the tradition in skyrim.
Though just before I could finish him my horse stole the kill and took my rightful place as the king of skyrim.

You can do that, Oh my god. Or are you just joking, if that is the case RRRRRRR.
I sided with the stormcloaks because they fucked up the DB, BTW spoilers. As a loyal member to sithis and the "Family" that cannot be forgiven.

 

[SajuukKhar]

You mentioned that before, where ever did you get that from?

Using the inventory
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_23
"'The immobile warrior is never fatigued. He cuts sleep holes in the middle of a battle to regain his strength.'"
.
.
Loading saves
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_11
'The ruling king is armored head to toe in brilliant flame. He is redeemed by each act he undertakes. His death is only a diagram back to the waking world. He sleeps the second way. The Sharmat is his double, and therefore you wonder if you rule nothing.
.
.
The construction kit
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_19
?Vivec put on his armor and stepped into a non-spatial space filling to capacity with mortal interaction and information, a canvas-less cartography of every single mind it has ever known, an event that had developed some semblance of a divine spark.
.
.
All is part of CHIM
http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_3
"CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled."
.
.
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_12
" 'I told you,' Vivec said, 'I am meant to be the teacher of the king of the earth. AE ALTADOON GHARTOK PADHOME.'

With these magic words, the King of Rape added another: 'CHIM,' which is the secret syllable of royalty.

Vivec had what he needed from the Daedroth and so married him that day. In the hour that Bal had his head, the King of Rape asked for proof of love."

 

[PurePareidolia]

Skyrim is just showing you that life sucks and you gotta deal with it.

I have problems believing a game about becoming a legendary magical dragonslayer who can do anything or go anywhere is genuinely trying to tell me life sucks and I should deal with it.

This being Bethesda it's more likely they wanted to make it an interesting moral choice but both were so evil there was no point in chosing either.

That's what I've been trying to figure out, how are the stormcloaks evil? I submit that maybe I'm just thick and missed an obvious piece of evidence, but no one seems to want to point it out to me. :/

Well if you go into the Thalmor Embassy you can see that Ulfric Stormcloak is apparently a Thalmor Sleeper agent trying to destabilize the Empire's hold on Skyrim. Additionally they're racist against anyone who isn't a Nord and if you talk to some of the Imperials the ban on Talos worship wasn't even enforced until they started causing trouble so they're actually causing the problems they claim to want to solve. Nobleish goals aside, if they win, the Empire won't be strong enough to fight against the Thalmor on their own, and even if they take back Skyrim for a while, the Empire's the only thing keeping the Thalmor from just coming in and taking the country personally.

So even if they're not evil, they're pretty definitely a bad thing for Skyrim.

 

[Unsilenced]

I know everyone hates the stormcloaks, and it's easy to see why, but I didn't roleplay a reasonable sort of character. After nearly being executed just for entering the country, her attitude on the Empire was pretty much set in stone. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXbB1QU3Ato&feature=related]

Plus, she was an assassin, and that just lent itself more to taking on a giant empire than a couple of irate bearded guys drinking mead.

 

[Hal10k]

Snipsters McGee

Look, I know what Kirkbride says and the general consensus on the forums, but I still prefer to think that stuff is there because Vivec is coked out of his mind.

 

[Kimarous]

I sided with the Empire. Do I think the Empire is perfect or the "good" guys? Hell no, but I sure as hell don't want to give the Stormcloaks what they want. Besides the fact that I consider the Stormcloak jarls to be generally worse than the Imperial ones, their agenda of independence will doom everybody. The Empire as a whole couldn't defeat the Dominion, and Hammerfell could barely fight them to a standstill. Why do you think Skyrim fighting alone would fare any better? Furthermore, considering that Skyrim is the last land bridge holding the Empire together, what do you think will happen if it breaks away? The Empire will fall apart... High Rock, Cyrodiil, and the last remnants of Morrowind will stand on their own... and on their own, the Dominion will swallow them up. "Oh, but Skyrim is a harsh land that is hard to invade." Yeah, from SEA, maybe, but why invade from sea when you can simply march from High Rock and Cyrodiil? Independence will only give the Dominion more fronts to invade Skyrim from, thereby giving them a higher change of victory!

Oh, and to the people who think the Empire is about "destroying cultural diversity"... evidence, please? Besides, the few things I have seem them stamping out are GOOD things to stamp out. "Yeah, we can kill our king any time we want if we think he's weak. It's a cultural thing." Do you seriously think that's WORTH keeping? I'm sure the real world countries that practice this mentality are getting by just fine... OH WAIT!

 

[SajuukKhar]

Look, I know what Kirkbride says and the general consensus on the forums, but I still prefer to think that stuff is there because Vivec is coked out of his mind.

Whats funny is..... Kirkbride is the guy who actually wrote the 36 lessons of Vivec..... BY HIMSELF.

The only person who can really say what it means..... is him.

Vivec was far from crazy.

Also the entire concept of Dragon-breaks was Kirkbride's idea.

 

[Hal10k]

Look, I know what Kirkbride says and the general consensus on the forums, but I still prefer to think that stuff is there because Vivec is coked out of his mind.

Whats funny is..... Kirkbride is the guy who actually wrote the 36 lessons of Vivec..... BY HIMSELF.

The only person who can really say what it means..... is him.

Vivec was far from crazy.

Also the entire concept of Dragon-breaks was Kirkbride's idea.

Vivec wasn't crazy. The guy who left an asteroid suspended in midair over his own house and wrote a religious text about having dick-fight with Molag Bal.

I think we can agree that he was at least a little odd.

And I'm well aware of Kirkbride's statements and contributions. My point is that, while Kirkbride says the idea of CHIM should be taken literally, this isn't acknowledged in the game. From the point of view of the player, the 36 Lessons may just be drunken ramblings conjured up by Vivec that he had published because he's a god, so why not.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Vivec wasn't crazy. The guy who left an asteroid suspended in midair over his own house and wrote a religious text about having dick-fight with Molag Bal.

I think we can agree that he was at least a little odd.

And I'm well aware of Kirkbride's statements and contributions. My point is that, while Kirkbride says the idea of CHIM should be taken literally, this isn't acknowledged in the game. From the point of view of the player, the 36 Lessons may just be drunken ramblings conjured up by Vivec that he had published because he's a god, so why not.

http://uesp.net/wiki/Loreocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Cyrodiil
Indeed, if the history of the Nords is the history of humans on Tamriel, then Cyrodiil is the throne from which they will decide their destiny. It is the largest region of the continent, and most is endless jungle. Its center, the grassland of the Nibenay Valley, is enclosed by an equatorial rain forest and broken up by rivers.

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_36_Lessons_of_Vivec
With these magic words, the King of Rape added another: 'CHIM,' which is the secret syllable of royalty.

http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Heimskr
""Let me show you the power of Talos, Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now in royalty and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.""

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_3
"CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled."

.
.
Bethesda has used CHIM as the official in-game lore explanation as to why Cyrod is no longer a nearly endless tropical jungle, as described in the original "Pocket guide to the Empire", but instead the generic mid-evil fantasy landscape we see in Oblivion.

Tiber Septim CHIMed away the jungle.

To say CHIM is "not acknowledged by the game" is factually wrong.

 

[Altorin]

I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, but it dawned on me today. Imperial and Stormcloak are both bad guys. Honestly, one wants to rid the world of cultural diversity and the other just wants to ignore it and bully it. I mean the Stormcloaks are racist assholes and the Imperial are conquering asshole...It's just a choice of the lesser of two evils.

The Imperials aren't "conquering assholes"

Skyrim has been part of the Empire since the Empire was an Empire. The first Emperor was a Nord. The whole subtext of the game was about him. The Empire just finished fighting a War with the Thalmar, a war that they were losing, and then the Thalmar allowed them to surrender as long as they (along with many other stipulations) conceded that Tiber Septim never ascended to godhood, because the idea of a human ascending to godhood was completely anathema to the Thalmar.

They're trying to keep the Empire in one piece, and they have Stormcloaks in Skyrim actively attempting to sabotage all of their efforts. They're not "conquering" Skyrim. They're just trying to keep Skyrim from falling to pieces.

and while you could certainly argue that the Stormcloaks are racist, they mostly just see the Empire as collapsed - to the Stormcloaks, the thalmar beat the Empire (because they totally did), and they resent that the Empire which their race helped found has been reduced to licking Altmer boots. In their eyes, they're just the new world order, and the last line of defense against the thalmar. To them, the Thalmar and the Empire are one and the same.

Boiling the conflict between the Empire and the Stormcloaks down to "racist versus jerks that execute random people" is just not the right way to do it. It's actually a very complex and nuanced situation if you think about it. Even the Stormcloak's racism is completely justified - they're actually still fighting the war against the Thalmar - the ruling group of elves (along with the Khajiit, who folded to the Thalmar immediately) who have infiltrated their empire's highest levels and are trying to take their god away. You might not care about God, but the people of Skyrim care deeply about Talos worship. He was their guy.

Anyone who doesn't side with the Empire is a fool. The facts are there that the Empire is the lesser of two evils and actually have the capability to take out the greater evil.

I disagree that the answer is as simple as that, like I said, the real question of "Stormcloak vs Empire" is, "Did the Empire Lose itself in the war against the Thalmar?" The Stormcloaks are sure that they did, and would like to see the broken Empire and its Thalmar masters (the Thalmar really kicked the Empire's ass that hard) out of Skyrim so that a new Empire can be founded in the same way Tiber Septim ascended.

The Empire sees itself as not destroyed, the Stormcloak see the empire as destroyed. And they both have good arguments. The Empire's Main argument is that it still has an emperor, and the conflict between them and the thalmar is resolved. It's trying its hardest to return things back to normal. The Stormcloaks see that the empire has fallen and been completely infiltrated by the same enemy that threatened to destroy them all. They completely hate the thalmar, and see the empire, which is rooted fairly heavily in Skyrim as a rotten core that needs to be removed so that they can be safe from the Thalmar's influence.

You're probably right that the Empire has a greater chance to bring stability to Skyrim - if they wipe out the Stormcloaks, then the last war against the Thalmar will be finished - in victory for the thalmar. Everyone will be safe, but they'll be safe under Thalmar rule, where humans are subjugated, because the Thalmar are pulling all of the strings.

Is it foolish to consider that?