Jimquisition: Hardcore Hypocrisy

Recommended Videos

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
Jim Sterling said:
There are hardcore gamers out there so proud of their self-styled character trait that they shall defend it jealously. For indeed, it is they who get to judge whether or not others are worthy of being called gamers, it is they who decide what is and what is not a true videogame, and they shall brutally eject any fail to live up to their high standards. It's just a shame that their standards are bollocks and their judgments hypocritical.


Hardcore Hipster here: I've been championing hardcore iOS games before Jim Sterling made a video about it

My game to Champion is Rage on the iOS but NOT the version that was reviewed at launch, but the game subsequently updated (after the metascore had been set) to include REALLY GOOD gyroscope controls that makes it not just very fun to play, but engaging in a really unique way.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,759
0
0
But Jim, Mario Kart is totally a hardcore game! You're just "bias" because you like your casual shooters!

MonkeyPunch said:
Does anyone actually consider themselves a hardcore, or casual gamer?
I consider myself a "casual" gamer. Whether or not my definition matches yours or anyone else's is a different story. I won't own a Wii, I don't play titles like Mario Kart, and I don't own an iphone, but I also don't take games as super srs as a lot of the so-called (and self-labeled, I might add) "hardcore" crowd.

Is it two dimensional? Well, when you look at the breadth of what the terms cam mean, not really.
 

Movement_Machine

New member
Oct 17, 2011
30
0
0
i actually played infinity blade on a giant touch screen at Dave&Buster's and well... it was fucking sweet!i spent like 10 bucks on it. so i agree with the argument that it could hold up as a classic game if it were released in the 80's. its also awesome over all. simple or not.
 

Cpu46

Gloria ex machina
Sep 21, 2009
1,604
0
41
Otaku World Order said:
So... Call of Duty is casual and Mario Kart is hardcore? Did I wake up in the Bizarro universe or something?
Try playing Double Dash with 4 players going through the final stretch, both racers perfectly in tune with their partners, neck and neck down to the last moment with a blue shell bearing down on you and tell me Mario Kart isn't hard core. I have lost blood over that game.

OT: All kidding aside (though the story really happened) the gaming industry really needs to drop the whole casual/hardcore argument. You can be a hardcore Tetris/Mario/Wii Sports Resort player as easily as you can be a hardcore Halo/Battlefield/COD player. You get what you put in, nothing more and nothing less.
 

MrLumber

New member
Jan 13, 2009
160
0
0
I'm really hoping that entire thing was sarcastic, because Jim's misconception of the word deep (or at least in the usual gamer lingo 'deep', which I assume he's using) is rather astounding. I think had he used the word 'complex' instead this entire thing would make sense, because yes, more complexity does not inherently make a better game. Depth, on the other hand, is an entirely different beast and IS what separates good games from bad 90%-100% of the time.

For those of you confused, or unaware, by the distinction I'm trying to draw is that a complex game has 50 different options, a deep game has 10-15, but upon exploration and experience with the game it is revealed that by combining these elements an enormous amount of possibilities is discovered. An excellent example is Pokemon, easy to pick up and complete and generally straightforward, even simple. But upon a longer exposure to the game it is revealed that genuine mastery of the game is a long (but not necessarily arduous) road, filled with relevant decisions the player can make.

It seems to me Jim doesn't really understand this, because he draws comparisons to the retro age with games that simply don't hold up against them. The original Mario is certainly simple, but it is also deceptively deep. Advanced run-throughs of the game take a good long while to figure out, and require not only a mastery of the game, but of its systems and layout. This is where IOS games really fall down, is that they aren't that well designed (in comparison to the genuine classics, not that they are inherently bad) and are simply ... well simple, and can be completed very easily in a single run-through, and where player decision making is virtually non existent.

Additionally he's comparing games from over twenty years ago, to something made very recently. The fact that that is what it stacks up against is not actually a good case for the game in question.

Personally I find that the IOS would matter more if serious designers actually payed any heed to it, because currently most up-and-comers focus on making downloadable titles for consoles or PC for two reasons. One, they are easier to develop, and two, most 'actual gamer' devs aim to make games for people with history in the medium, perhaps that's a dated perspective but a common one nonetheless. Larger devs also have very little experience designing for tablets and whatnot, meaning they are more likely to develop for consoles and PCs. Until people actually start making games that are more enjoyable, and memorable, on the IOS, I think I'll stick to my other gaming devices.
 

matell

New member
Oct 13, 2010
69
0
0
this guy can put it better than me (sorry for not knowing how to embed): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otyXtzLNxoI&feature=player_embedded#!

I grew up with Fallout, Planescape Torment and Deus Ex. When I ***** about gaming "not being hardcore" I ask where can I find games like these now-a-days. (Human Revolution was ... good, just not as mind-boggling as the first).
Yes the origin of video-games is about entertainment, but so was that of the movies, and that of music. And those industries are not ALL ABOUT FUN now, are they?.
I generally agree with Jim, but this episode made me post my first feedback about his show, BECAUSE IT'S OK TO WANT MORE FROM AN INDUSTRY.
 

Trapilon

New member
Mar 27, 2010
10
0
0
First: This discussion has to die. It's useless.

Second: @Deviate (post 12) made really points, though.

Third:
 

mjc0961

YOU'RE a pie chart.
Nov 30, 2009
3,847
0
0
kiri2tsubasa said:
I have always used this definition of gamer. Do you play games, 'yes', do you like playing games, 'yes', do you know how to get the games that interest you (retail, DD, etc), 'yes', congratulations, you are a gamer.
Or how about we end the labels: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/8031-Extra-Punctuation-Dont-Use-the-Word-Gamer

I'm going to go watch some TV now. I guess that makes me a TVer, as I must label myself based on what I do for entertainment. *eye roll*
 

sordcooper

New member
Sep 14, 2010
26
0
0
a bit tangential, but the only real gripes i have with IOS games are not that they're too simple. or that they're too casual; its that i cant get them on my pc! seriously! i would fling money at my laptop hard enough to blow a hole through it if i could get a pc compatible version for angry birds or infinity blade!... and no i wont buy an i-phone.... unless apple makes a deal with bethesda and you can buy an apple pip boy...
 

Dastardly

Imaginary Friend
Apr 19, 2010
2,420
0
0
Jim Sterling said:
Hardcore Hypocrisy

There are hardcore gamers out there so proud of their self-styled character trait that they shall defend it jealously. For indeed, it is they who get to judge whether or not others are worthy of being called gamers, it is they who decide what is and what is not a true videogame, and they shall brutally eject any fail to live up to their high standards. It's just a shame that their standards are bollocks and their judgments hypocritical.

Watch Video
Everyone that gets in on the ground-floor of a medium or industry wants to immediately lock the door behind them. We grew up eating the baby-food and peanut-butter-and-jelly sandwiches of early arcade gaming, and eventually moved up to the steak-and-potatoes of "grown up" games. The industry grew up with us, increasing the challenge to meet our ever-increasing expertise.

Along the way, we've forgotten that, while we're older now, new gamers are still being "born." Just because I'm not eating strained peas anymore doesn't mean they should be taken off the shelves.

This is not to suggest that casual games are only for kids. It's simply to suggest that not every game can cater to the hardest-core sensibilities. We still need casual games for:

1. Yes, the newcomers. The younger kids who don't have decades of prerequisite knowledge and experience that allow them to take on hardcore games right out of the gate.

2. The other end -- the former "hardcore gamers" who are now old enough to have families and responsibilities that might just take up more time than they used to.

What's happening is unfortunate, but not uncommon. A group of people use a particular medium to build an identity, and then they want to declare a moratorium on new recruiting so they can keep things their way forever.
 

Arfreid

New member
Aug 13, 2009
86
0
0
MonkeyPunch said:
Does anyone actually consider themselves a hardcore, or casual gamer?
Seems a bit two dimensional and restrictive...
Exactly, the term "Hardcore" is IMHO nothing but a publicity stunt of some videogame companies, saying that games that are simple, not realistic or not violent are for kids, and that true gamers need more depth and better graphics.

True gamers play videogames because they have fun. Games now a days are so diverse that there is something for everybody and there are gamers for every kind of game. Calling them names or telling them that they are not true gamers is to spit to the wind. End of story.
 

Right Hook

New member
May 29, 2011
947
0
0
I totally agree but for me to truly feel like I am enjoying a game I need at least a D pad and an A and B button, I've had fun with Iphone games but the touch screen just doesn't do it for me, especially if I'm going to be playing for more than a few minutes.
 

Scrustle

New member
Apr 30, 2011
2,031
0
0
Didn't Jim do another episode on the same subject? Seems familiar to me... But anyway he's right yet again. And what's more anyone who says smartphones games are all "shallow" are ignorant fools. There's countless deep and long games out there if you look for them. The RPG category on iTunes is full of them. And don't forget several of the early Final Fantasy games have been ported on to iOS. So have the DS remakes.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Daystar Clarion said:
Still doesn't explain why you gave Mario Kart that score for 'not changing anything', then MW3 ended up with a very high score.
No, the reviews explained that.

You should read 'em sometime.
 

Sixcess

New member
Feb 27, 2010
2,719
0
0
I don't hate casual games.

I hate the industry for dumbing so many games down so that those smug, middle class cunts in those video excerpts might consider playing them.

The industry is in love with the idea that their games will gain wider recognition and acceptability - which translates either into being played at parties by 'non-gamers' or, on the flipside, being played by the multiplayer jock crowd - how else explain Bioware's desperate whoring to multiplayer other than their acceptance of the stereotype that single player is for nerds, brah... Each is as bad as the other.
 

boag

New member
Sep 13, 2010
1,623
0
0
Elitism is common to all forms of social structures in people.

I´m not sure why that is, but it is ingrained in people as to a establish a pecking order.

I cant seriously fault or blame people that do this, because it is what they are taught their whole lives.

In order to be considered exceptional and admired you have to "raise these supposed standards", I cant fault people with this line of thought, because I would be Hypocrite myself, since everyone at one time or another takes this stance.
 
Dec 14, 2009
15,526
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Still doesn't explain why you gave Mario Kart that score for 'not changing anything', then MW3 ended up with a very high score.
No, the reviews explained that.

You should read 'em sometime.
You're right, I was wrong to bring it up here.

I apologise.