Jimquisition: Mass Effect 3: A Gay Erotic Love Story

[Rainboq]

No offense, but I'm going to pick apart that last sentence of yours. Why is not thinking about sexuality, one of the baser component of human psychology, which the repression of has been proven to be harmful, a bad thing? What is so bad about thinking about one of the fundamental concepts of life itself, procreation, seen as a dirty thing? Aside from the obvious, religious reasons, of course.

That's just it. My religion is mostly my viewpoint on sex. Not that sex is BAD aka why people usually do so to have kids or bond with the person they love (even if they doing it out of lust, that's not for me to judge) I don't want to get myself involved in sex directly or think of such matters because that isn't who I am really unless it's a discussion value I get out of it. Also sex encourages actions to one's mind and my past has it's regrets so I stay away from such matters but anyone who wants some- that's fine with me really.

What is lust, but love of a different form? Regardless, sex does have discussion value, its like any sort of excersize, sport or profession.

 

[Rainboq]

You're misinterperting me, I'm saying that you can criticize, not complain. There is a difference, critizism tends to be more in depth and constructive.

Complaints are just negative criticism.

It could be the way your character moves when around other characters. Honestly, there's more to a character than just the dialogue.

What does that even mean? Awkwardly and repeatedly bumping into them from behind? It's pretty hard to show subtle body gestures in a shooting game with stock animations.

Complaints tend to be more general, whereas criticism tends to be more fine in its details. And it could be simply moving slower and pointing the camera at them more often, initiating dialogue with them more frequently and taking them on missions. Also, not every gay guy is constantly shoving his pelvis into people, regardless of what 90s TV says.

 

[Avatar Roku]

-It is not shallow to include homosexual relations in a game. It is shallow to include any sexual relations in a game.

That's a wee bit 'No True Scottsman'. Sexuality is a core component of human relations, and as such, sexuality can and should a part of more adult games that talk about the human condition, like Mass Effect. Hell, even TES and Fallout have sex, just heavily implied.

Yes, sexuality is a core component of human relations, but that doesn't mean it's handled well. I'd argue that sex in general has not been handled well or meaningfully in Mass Effect. I'd honestly prefer if it was just excised completely (though if it's in the games at all, I'd like them to be both straight and gay).

 

[Rainboq]

-It is not shallow to include homosexual relations in a game. It is shallow to include any sexual relations in a game.

That's a wee bit 'No True Scottsman'. Sexuality is a core component of human relations, and as such, sexuality can and should a part of more adult games that talk about the human condition, like Mass Effect. Hell, even TES and Fallout have sex, just heavily implied.

Yes, sexuality is a core component of human relations, but that doesn't mean it's handled well. I'd argue that sex in general has not been handled well or meaningfully in Mass Effect. I'd honestly prefer if it was just excised completely (though if it's in the games at all, I'd like them to be both straight and gay).

Eh, the quality depends on what you've experienced before and your personal tastes, so that's hardly a good argument.

EDIT: Not that I'm saying your point isn't valid, some devs need to grow the hell up.

 

[Drakey]

I was at a conference here in Canada, *Quebec City Cough* in September. EA sat on stage in a talkshow format filling us in on many fun upcoming titles. Mass Effect 3 became the topic, and partway through the chat, samesex relationships came up. and disappeared almost as quick as if they weren't quite sure if it was 'Appropriate' for us buisness folk to hear. And to an extent, some of us weren't mature enough, as neighboring table of fellow 'leaders' began what I call the small town groans.

I spoke up in the huge hall, at least loud enough for nearby ears saying 'um, thats what I WANT to know about'

You just made my millennium Jim. And possibly a fantasy or three. ahem. Thanks man!!!

/Salute

 

[Tony2077]

Heaven forbid people use the comments section to discuss rather than mindlessly worship the content creator.

I love discussions. However, they too often turn into mindless arguments with all the same points being abused over and over.

Simply put, I see no reason to bash the option for homosexuality in ME3. They wanted to put it in the previous two games too, but unfortunately, we live in society where homosexuality is frowned upon. I don't think it's an issue with writing or retconing; it's an issue with our society. Finally, they decided to say "Fuck it, we're doing it this time" and put the option in the game, where it should have been since the beginning. Sure, it would've been better if it was there from the start (I'm sure some people were disappointed for not having a gay option), but they had to scrap that idea for various reasons. I am not bothered by it though, as I don't see it as that big of an issue. You can play a consistent Shepard and not change anything at all in all three games. You can also decide that it was boring to be paragon and choose to be renegade. Or change your face or your class. There's no viable explanation for that, in-game, and your squadmates are going to address you all the same even if you suddenly went from being a noble soldier to some full-biotic douche, or you had a complete face change surgery. So, why is homosexuality such a problem? If I can completely change the look and morals of my character, I should be able to suddenly decide that my Shepard wants man sex (or woman sex). Or I could just pretend that s/he was gay from the beginning and it was other people who were not, so I couldn't indulge in my desires. Or I could completely ignore this option and play as I played until now. I have three Shepards, neither of them is gay and neither of them will suddenly become gay, because I want to finish relationships with the ones I romanced in ME2. But I could make a new Shepard, romance no one in ME1 and 2 (or romance someone just because I can) and then romance my true and only love in ME3.

There, here's a discussion.

wow that is far better then anything i could ever think of kudos.

 

[Beliyal]

Heaven forbid people use the comments section to discuss rather than mindlessly worship the content creator.

I love discussions. However, they too often turn into mindless arguments with all the same points being abused over and over.

Simply put, I see not reason to bash the option for homosexuality in ME3. They wanted to put it in the previous two games too, but unfortunately, we live in society where homosexuality is frowned upon. I don't think it's an issue with writing or retconing; it's an issue with our society. Finally, they decided to say "Fuck it, we're doing it this time" and put the option in the game, where it should have been since the beginning. Sure, it would've been better if it was there from the start (I'm sure some people were disappointed for not having a gay option), but they had to scrap that idea for various reasons. I am not bothered by it though, as I don't see it as that big of an issue. You can play a consistent Shepard and not change anything at all in all three games. You can also decide that it was boring to be paragon and choose to be renegade. Or change your face or your class. There's no viable explanation for that, in-game, and your squadmates are going to address you all the same even if you suddenly went from being a noble soldier to some full-biotic douche, or you had a complete face change surgery. So, why is homosexuality such a problem? If I can completely change the look and morals of my character, I should be able to suddenly decide that my Shepard wants man sex (or woman sex). Or I could just pretend that s/he was gay from the beginning and it was other people who were not, so I couldn't indulge in my desires. Or I could completely ignore this option and play as I played until now. I have three Shepards, neither of them is gay and neither of them will suddenly become gay, because I want to finish relationships with the ones I romanced in ME2. But I could make a new Shepard, romance no one in ME1 and 2 (or romance someone just because I can) and then romance my true and only love in ME3.

There, here's a discussion.

Which is pretty much what we have been discussing for the last 3/4 pages.

My argument is that the amount of effort adding a gay relationship into the series this late isn't worth it. The development time could have been better spent on additional general content, especially considering the small amount of development time (2 years, which is pretty tight for an RPG, especially one which prides itself on choices).

Not only that but a staple of good writing is foreshadowing and hinting. Making Shepard gay this late in the series seems much more like pandering rather than adding anything meaningful to the story.

Well, maybe you're right and it isn't worth it. However, people are happy about it and they look forward to this option. In my opinion, it is worth it. Not only because it adds new stuff to the game (however insignificant it may be), but it also means that it will be a high-budget popular game, incorporating this issue into its gameplay and story. Which is significant in the context of our real life society and culture. It will not be the first game to do this, but I am glad that it is done nonetheless. I believe it's worth it. You believe it's not. Neither of us knows how much resources and time they spent to make it happen, and what else they could've done with those resources and time. In my opinion, those resources and time are well spent (even if I may never chose that). However, we're now at the point of speculation and guessing (I doubt there's actual info called "How much people and money Bioware used to make two men have sex in Mass Effect 3?". Honestly, I can hardly imagine a conversation where they had to abandon doing some awesome mission because they had to code gay sex. But as I said; speculation and guessing).

I agree that foreshadowing and hinting would've made this better. And originally, homosexual option was in the game, which means, it was there in the writing, with all the foreshadowing and hinting. It would've been great if they left it in the game, and if we had this option from the start. Sadly, they had to remove it. There's still pieces of it left in the games though (such as this [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HaIk0lnQE]; it wasn't just the writing, even the voice acting was already done when they scraped the whole thing). In any case, I think we agree in general; I just live by the "better late than never" motto.

 

[Gather]

In my mind it's a little too late to worry about creating a "Gay ark" for Shepard. Two games where Shepard fallen in love with, connected with and romanced a member of the opposite gender (Or at least one Ken Doll with a women's body and the same gender) which makes the amount of time and effort to do the 180 decently isn't worthwhile.

That or it's just hamfisted in there as people shrug it off as Shepard approaches Male Steroid dude and says to his previous lovers; "I'm only interested in men." as they just shrug it off. Happens all the time, after-all

Edit: And then maybe some comments from homophobic humans/aliens (Who happen to be demonized in every possible way before-hand) which you must put down with a renegade bullet or a paragon parable

 

[secretsantaone]

You're misinterperting me, I'm saying that you can criticize, not complain. There is a difference, critizism tends to be more in depth and constructive.

Complaints are just negative criticism.

It could be the way your character moves when around other characters. Honestly, there's more to a character than just the dialogue.

What does that even mean? Awkwardly and repeatedly bumping into them from behind? It's pretty hard to show subtle body gestures in a shooting game with stock animations.

Complaints tend to be more general, whereas criticism tends to be more fine in its details.

So why would I have the right to criticise but not complain if it's just a matter of focus?

And it could be simply moving slower and pointing the camera at them more often, initiating dialogue with them more frequently and taking them on missions.

Moving slow and bringing people into life threatening situations = being flirty. Alrighty then.

Also, not every gay guy is constantly shoving his pelvis into people, regardless of what 90s TV says.

Nice work trying to paint me as homophobic by taking it out of context. In context, I was pointing out how hard it would be to convey something as subtle as flirting using stock shooter animations.

 

[goliath6711]

Heaven forbid people use the comments section to discuss rather than mindlessly worship the content creator.

I love discussions. However, they too often turn into mindless arguments with all the same points being abused over and over.

Simply put, I see no reason to bash the option for homosexuality in ME3. They wanted to put it in the previous two games too, but unfortunately, we live in society where homosexuality is frowned upon. I don't think it's an issue with writing or retconing; it's an issue with our society. Finally, they decided to say "Fuck it, we're doing it this time" and put the option in the game, where it should have been since the beginning. Sure, it would've been better if it was there from the start (I'm sure some people were disappointed for not having a gay option), but they had to scrap that idea for various reasons. I am not bothered by it though, as I don't see it as that big of an issue. You can play a consistent Shepard and not change anything at all in all three games. You can also decide that it was boring to be paragon and choose to be renegade. Or change your face or your class. There's no viable explanation for that, in-game, and your squadmates are going to address you all the same even if you suddenly went from being a noble soldier to some full-biotic douche, or you had a complete face change surgery. So, why is homosexuality such a problem? If I can completely change the look and morals of my character, I should be able to suddenly decide that my Shepard wants man sex (or woman sex). Or I could just pretend that s/he was gay from the beginning and it was other people who were not, so I couldn't indulge in my desires. Or I could completely ignore this option and play as I played until now. I have three Shepards, neither of them is gay and neither of them will suddenly become gay, because I want to finish relationships with the ones I romanced in ME2. But I could make a new Shepard, romance no one in ME1 and 2 (or romance someone just because I can) and then romance my true and only love in ME3.

There, here's a discussion.

Sure we could decide to go completely against the grain and completely flip from paragon to renegade and vice-verse in-between games if we want to. But where's the fun in that? The Mass Effect Trilogy was built around the fact that "Choices Matter". A decision made in the first game could have the potential to bite you in the ass in the third. Going from peace-loving diplomat to kill-crazy psychopath is going to make a character appear inconsistent and unstable. And if that's what the intention is, fine. Just be sure to recognize that.

 

[Guilherme Zoldan]

I had never heard so many words for dick before...

 

[Beliyal]

Heaven forbid people use the comments section to discuss rather than mindlessly worship the content creator.

I love discussions. However, they too often turn into mindless arguments with all the same points being abused over and over.

Simply put, I see no reason to bash the option for homosexuality in ME3. They wanted to put it in the previous two games too, but unfortunately, we live in society where homosexuality is frowned upon. I don't think it's an issue with writing or retconing; it's an issue with our society. Finally, they decided to say "Fuck it, we're doing it this time" and put the option in the game, where it should have been since the beginning. Sure, it would've been better if it was there from the start (I'm sure some people were disappointed for not having a gay option), but they had to scrap that idea for various reasons. I am not bothered by it though, as I don't see it as that big of an issue. You can play a consistent Shepard and not change anything at all in all three games. You can also decide that it was boring to be paragon and choose to be renegade. Or change your face or your class. There's no viable explanation for that, in-game, and your squadmates are going to address you all the same even if you suddenly went from being a noble soldier to some full-biotic douche, or you had a complete face change surgery. So, why is homosexuality such a problem? If I can completely change the look and morals of my character, I should be able to suddenly decide that my Shepard wants man sex (or woman sex). Or I could just pretend that s/he was gay from the beginning and it was other people who were not, so I couldn't indulge in my desires. Or I could completely ignore this option and play as I played until now. I have three Shepards, neither of them is gay and neither of them will suddenly become gay, because I want to finish relationships with the ones I romanced in ME2. But I could make a new Shepard, romance no one in ME1 and 2 (or romance someone just because I can) and then romance my true and only love in ME3.

There, here's a discussion.

Sure we could decide to go completely against the grain and completely flip from paragon to renegade and vice-verse in-between games if we want to. But where's the fun in that? The Mass Effect Trilogy was built around the fact that "Choices Matter". A decision made in the first game could have the potential to bite you in the ass in the third. Going from peace-loving diplomat to kill-crazy psychopath is going to make a character appear inconsistent and unstable. And if that's what the intention is, fine. Just be sure to recognize that.

Well, I never changed my Shepard like that. I see no point in it really, I choose to play as a certain class, with a certain face and certain morality and I play it like that in both games. However, I guess some people don't find that fun. Personally, I'm not into creating a mentally unstable inconsistent character who changes completely between the games. But the homosexuality issue is not that hard to justify in-game. And if it is to some people, they can just ignore it completely. Even though, I believe they put it in because they could finally do so, without fearing people tearing them apart for it (although, that's questionable, since we're having these discussions). I mean, Fox tore them apart for even putting actual three seconds of sex in ME1. If homosexuality was an option too, it would've turned into a Crusade. But now, it's the end of the franchise, and whatever happens, it all ends so, even if people complain, it will not, in any way, mess up their work (and profit) and hamper next parts of the franchise (because there won't be next parts, at least not with Shepard. ... I suppose). And maybe it opens a path for new games with this option. In the beginning, there's always the biggest uproar. Each new try will provide less and less complaints, hopefully.

 

[secretsantaone]

Well, maybe you're right and it isn't worth it. However, people are happy about it and they look forward to this option. In my opinion, it is worth it. Not only because it adds new stuff to the game (however insignificant it may be), but it also means that it will be a high-budget popular game, incorporating this issue into its gameplay and story. Which is significant in the context of our real life society and culture. It will not be the first game to do this, but I am glad that it is done nonetheless. I believe it's worth it. You believe it's not. Neither of us knows how much resources and time they spent to make it happen, and what else they could've done with those resources and time. In my opinion, those resources and time are well spent (even if I may never chose that). However, we're now at the point of speculation and guessing (I doubt there's actual info called "How much people and money Bioware used to make two men have sex in Mass Effect 3?". Honestly, I can hardly imagine a conversation where they had to abandon doing some awesome mission because they had to code gay sex. But as I said; speculation and guessing).

I agree that foreshadowing and hinting would've made this better. And originally, homosexual option was in the game, which means, it was there in the writing, with all the foreshadowing and hinting. It would've been great if they left it in the game, and if we had this option from the start. Sadly, they had to remove it. There's still pieces of it left in the games though (such as this [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HaIk0lnQE]; it wasn't just the writing, even the voice acting was already done when they scraped the whole thing). In any case, I think we agree in general; I just live by the "better late than never" motto.

Is it really worth it if it's cheapened? Surely it would be better to finish off this franchise and start a new one with a homosexual character, rather than shoe-horning it in so late. To me it just seems patronising, like 'here's your token gay relationship, now leave us alone.'.

On the issue of resources spent, let's have a look different at what different elements go into a videogame.


Writing - Someone has to write the romance, which characters, how it progresses, how it ends up etc.

Dialogue writing - After that, the dialogue between the characters needs to be written including multiple speech trees and paths for different conversation choices

Voice acting - Then they need to get the voice actors in to record the lines and the sound editors to get it into a fit state

Animation - Someone needs to animate the romance scenes, including a presumably unique sex scene which uses no stock animations

Coding - After that, someone needs to actually put all the different elements into the game and not have it clash with everything else

Quality control - The romance needs to be played through multiple times under different conditions to make sure there are no bugs or errors



So probably quite a bit of time I'd imagine.

 

[SoulSalmon]

Jumping back to the age verification...
Yes I can see why it was placed there, but is this really any worse then having an MS-paint image of a guys dick on screen accompanied by Jim saying "Those fucking cunts" repeatedly?

Meh, it doesn't really matter, when I first saw the verifier I was thinking "So help me, if this verification is only here because of homosexuality I am fucking GONE" so I'm just glad there was a legitimate reason behind it.

 

[Beliyal]

Is it really worth it if it's cheapened? Surely it would be better to finish off this franchise and start a new one with a homosexual character, rather than shoe-horning it in so late. To me it just seems patronising, like 'here's your token gay relationship, now leave us alone.'.

On the issue of resources spent, let's have a look different at what different elements go into a videogame.


Writing - Someone has to write the romance, which characters, how it progresses, how it ends up etc.

Dialogue writing - After that, the dialogue between the characters needs to be written including multiple speech trees and paths for different conversation choices

Voice acting - Then they need to get the voice actors in to record the lines and the sound editors to get it into a fit state

Animation - Someone needs to animate the romance scenes, including a presumably unique sex scene which uses no stock animations

Coding - After that, someone needs to actually put all the different elements into the game and not have it clash with everything else

Quality control - The romance needs to be played through multiple times under different conditions to make sure there are no bugs or errors



So probably quite a bit of time I'd imagine.

Quite possible, and yet, even after all that time and resources spent, they decided to just remove it from the first game, for example. If it really cost them so much to do it, wouldn't it be wiser to let it there and use it, instead of removing it and virtually throwing money and time away? That seems like a huge loss to me, if it really is so costly (time and resources wise). But anyway, since ME3 is the final game, I think they really didn't cheap out on this and I can't picture them choosing between some essential story and/or gameplay part and gay romance option, and then choosing that they'll do the latter. Probably, they had the time and resources for both. Maybe I'm too trustworthy and/or naive though.

As if for it being cheapened; well, we can't tell yet, maybe it will truly look cheap and cheesy as hell. In which case, I will probably change my mind and conclude that they shouldn't have been trying to put it in if they couldn't have done it properly. But maybe it turns out to be good, "natural" and awesome. I guess we have to wait and see. And I'm sure some people won't mind even if it ends up being cheap.

 

[Avatar Roku]

-It is not shallow to include homosexual relations in a game. It is shallow to include any sexual relations in a game.

That's a wee bit 'No True Scottsman'. Sexuality is a core component of human relations, and as such, sexuality can and should a part of more adult games that talk about the human condition, like Mass Effect. Hell, even TES and Fallout have sex, just heavily implied.

Yes, sexuality is a core component of human relations, but that doesn't mean it's handled well. I'd argue that sex in general has not been handled well or meaningfully in Mass Effect. I'd honestly prefer if it was just excised completely (though if it's in the games at all, I'd like them to be both straight and gay).

Eh, the quality depends on what you've experienced before and your personal tastes, so that's hardly a good argument.

EDIT: Not that I'm saying your point isn't valid, some devs need to grow the hell up.

I hear you, I suppose it is pretty subjective. For that matter, Bioware handled it better than most devs (*glares at Team Ninja*). Hell, some of the romances actually were quite well written (I never romanced her, but I'm told Jack's was good, with it being cheap sex like she was expecting with you being renegade, and a meaningful relationship if paragon). It's just that I feel that they were all rather tacked on, secondary or even tertiary compared to the main parts of the games (EDIT: TO say nothing of Kelly Chambers *rage*), to the extent that they were never really given the attention they deserved. In a way, that's one reason I find this whole controversy weird; it's such a secondary part of the game.

 

[manic_depressive13]

How was that deserving of an age verification? So crudely drawn penises are fine but the line is drawn at reading aloud slash fic?

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

*slow clapping*

We are in the presence of a master satirist. Oh and that filter won't stop the kids from being turned gay.

 

[Eddie the head]

Umm... What the fuck?

 

[ADDLibrarian]

Wow. Then all the yaoi fangirls cream their drawers, missing the joke, but still happy.