Jimquisition: Sexual Failing

[Mylinkay Asdara]

I have to be in the disagree camp on this one, at least as it relates to the Bioware games (I haven't played many others with relationships / sex in them personally that you mentioned in the video). I was deeply attached to my romances in ME and DA games and I really enjoyed getting to know and being able to become close romantically to them as I felt might naturally happen if one was going up against horrible odds with a group of people over a period of time. The sex scenes were, admittedly, taken as stand alone, kinda corny and badly done, but that wasn't the crux of the matter for me at all. Then again, I'm a woman, so maybe that's part of the disconnect here - I felt in this episode, despite all you say (that I support) about thinking inclusively about women and girl gamers, that you were really considering this from a solely male point of view. That sex scenes are pandering boobies and sexual gratification at an audience you seem to consider as primarily male, and that... well that flies in the face of considering females part of that audience.

Have you seen the width and breadth of the fan fiction (of varying quality, granted) that spawns from those Bioware romances? They mean something to the story for a lot of people. They mean something to the game for a lot of people. You can take the sex scene out of that and stand it alone and critique it if you care to, and most will come up lacking, but people who are feeling romantically linked to another person do tend to end up in the sack in life as a general rule, barring any obstacles to that outcome.

The God of War sex is tasteless. The sex with hookers in GTA games is meaningless. The sex in a lot of games might have served your point far better than the sex in games that are trying to encompass the idea of romance developing over time (without turning themselves into dating sims, which others have pointed out, is a time/resources issue - it can only be so much of a game so yes, it's mostly talking and gifts but how much do you think it should be? The whole game? Half? Where's it sit for you?), but I have to say Bioware games didn't seem to serve your point. I see your point, it's a valid one in many instances, but your argument is weakened - to my mind - when these are the examples and we're using some Bioware rep who simplified things overly - as they do so very often it's almost exhausting to bother keeping up with it.

 

[treeroy]

Uh. I respect and agree with Jim's views most of the time, but I think he's really wrong here.

I don't believe that sex scenes in Bioware games are forced, or at the very least they don't feel it (which is what counts). When I played Dragon Age: Origins the first time, I genuinely fell in love with Morrigan, and I feel that the sex scenes made that relationship between me and her that little bit more authentic. They weren't about sex, they were about love. The scene itself was not hot, it was awkward, but it was the meaning that mattered. Morrigan is the only woman I feel I've ever loved, and quite possibly will be for the rest of my life - and to have that enhanced in the game by the sex is a positive in my books. And it wasn't a transaction. I didn't level up romance by giving her gifts. I played it as if it was real, I was completely immersed, and my relationship with Morrigan progressed through how I spoke with and acted towards her. That all meant a lot to me, and the sex scenes were part of it.



Jim also dismisses the friendzone too easily. The friendzone is not about wanting sex for being nice, it is about having feelings towards someone who doesn't feel the same way. Perhaps it is different in America - I am only seeing this from the British standpoint - but here, it very much is about one person wanting a relationship and the other wanting friendship. Nothing to do with a sex-for-kindness.

 

[Annihilist]

Actually I've always regarded the "friend zone" as somewhat genuine. It's a situation where you are really good friends with someone you want to have a relationship with, to the point where any further advancement may risk the future of the friendship. What you described, Jim, is not quite what I would have defined it as.

His definition is the one most commonly described by most people. I really wish your definition was the one people used because it's actually one that does not come with the negative connotations the other one has.

That's the definition I've always used. And it's not gender specific either.

 

[CBanana]

It probably isn't the same but the model still shows that the second argument skews higher based based on the part of the graph where X > 0.

The model skews higher based on the assumptions that X is equivalent between Sexsim and Violence and that Y(sexist) > Y(violent). Neither of which are known, so the model doesn't really show anything of value.

Mind you, we're not seeing the forest for the trees since both issues are actually problems. It's just that sexism is more likely to be a widespread problem.

Pretty much any poll you look at will show that more people do not consider the genders equal compared to the percentage of the population based on statistics that commit violent crimes.

Source?

I think in this case the United States would good to look at since it is the country with the highest crime rate but is still relatively liberal on gender issues:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#States
http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/07/01/gender-equality/

We can see that violent crime goes between 0.1% to 1.2% based on the state. We'll go with 0.65% nationally unless you want to crunch the numbers state by state. So 0.65% commit violent crimes in a given year where as 3% of people admitted to not believing in gender equality. It's statistically insignificant but the United States of course would likely be the nation where these two numbers are the closest.

 

[keserak]

. . . it is very much is about one person wanting a relationship and the other wanting friendship.

The relationship includes sex, so, by your own account, you're wrong. You don't get to slam a person for not wanting to be involved with you, and you sure as hell don't get to slam a gender because you're not able to convince them to sleep with you with inducements. The problem with the friendzone is that it automatically begins with self-indulgent entitlements.

There are people that would just be happy to have a friend. To have friends, then criticize them because they won't sleep with you, is the ultimate in jerkish entitlement.

As for sex in games:

I've found that all of Bioware's later games and modern games deal with sex in a terrible and immature fashion -- and therefore agree with Jim. And I also agree that, for the most part, sex in games is "gamified" and immature.

But there's an exception, and ironically enough, it's in a Bioware game alongside immature relationships.

Spoiler: The following run-down involves spoilers, but seriously, no one should care at this point. This game is old.

The game is Baldur's Gate II.

BGII features several romanceable characters. Most of the romances are shit. Two prominent examples include a prissy elf girl who's so irritating and cliche the male author is painfully obvious. The male option is a worthless sack of crap who has little reason to be in your party, thematically or mechanically! Indeed, negative fan response to his epic self-indulgent whining helped fuel better writing in the future by his author, iirc.

But there was, again, an exception. Viconia.

Voiced by Grey DeLisle, Viconia is. . . a fairly terrible person. Or, at least, she used to be, and now is less bad mostly because her circumstances suck and because being civil gets her friends. Better, she's a drow cleric and is a hugely strong member of your party; it's entirely possible to end up with a configuration of characters where Viconia is absolutely the strongest. And thematically, she's wonderful.

She's mean, self-centered, spiteful, and smart, and she tells the truth about people pretty much to hurt them. Now, that's terrible, but when the people she's attacking are being annoying, it's really satisfying. (Which makes you terrible too, but eh, you murder fools for a living, so screw it.)

The Viconia romance is rocky, complex, and annoying. Instead of making her happy, you have to fight her, because a Real Man (tm) stands up for himself. But don't go too far or she'll break it off. If that sounds gamish, well, it is, but it works here because Viconia really is manipulative and cold, so her turning romance into a by-the-numbers series of trials really does make sense. Keep in mind, the same way you're jumping through her hoops for sex, she's jumping through yours. You're both users, she's just being honest about it.

The best part is when you "win." Great, so now you're in a sexual relationship. Does it affect things? Yes.

She dumps you. Coldly.

Things get too real. She gets too close. In fact, the original ending is that both of you just endure huge emotional trauma and she retreats inside and that's that, no more romance. With anyone. A winner is you.

The expansion allows you to -- painfully -- rebuild the relationship. But still, that's a level of complexity that you don't see in video games, like, ever. I won't call it high art, but for a rpg, that's pretty impressive.

BGII has problems. It has plot issues (though not many; it's pretty tight). It has serious mechanical and pacing problems (combat can be ick -- and it's all combat). But the Viconia romance was some good writing.

And Bioware has done its best to be shit on this issue ever since.

 

[wulf3n]

Mind you, we're not seeing the forest for the trees since both issues are actually problems. It's just that sexism is more likely to be a widespread problem.

I'm still not seeing evidence for this.

I think in this case the United States would good to look at since it is the country with the highest crime rate but is still relatively liberal on gender issues:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#States
http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/07/01/gender-equality/

We can see that violent crime goes between 0.1% to 1.2% based on the state. We'll go with 0.65% nationally unless you want to crunch the numbers state by state. So 0.65% commit violent crimes in a given year where as 3% of people admitted to not believing in gender equality. It's statistically insignificant but the United States of course would likely be the nation where these two numbers are the closest.

The problem here is that one Data set (Crime_in_the_United_States) utilises data obtained by the FBI regarding reported crimes nationwide [http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/1tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_1_crime_in_the_united_states_by_volume_and_rate_per_100000_inhabitants_1993-2012.xls], the other works from a data set consisting of 26,210 interviews across 21 nations [http://www.pewglobal.org/about/]. That means at the very most only 26,190 Americans were interviewed. Not exactly a great cross-section of the community.

edit: So at most we can say 785.7 americans think women shouldn't have equal rights. Thats 0.00000025% of the american poplation.

 

[Nurb]

When American women expect men to pay for everything the only way to start a relationship with them is to spend money on them.

Yup, that sure is "all American women"
It's like you got your world view from a bad 90's stand-up comic or something.

That's still the expectation as a rule though, dude. There aren't many women initiating contact and asking for a first date and paying for it.

Then meet other women... dude?

I think you missed the point, buddy

 

[CBanana]

The problem here is that one Data set (Crime_in_the_United_States) utilises data obtained by the FBI regarding reported crimes nationwide [http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/1tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_1_crime_in_the_united_states_by_volume_and_rate_per_100000_inhabitants_1993-2012.xls], the other works from a data set consisting of 26,210 interviews across 21 nations [http://www.pewglobal.org/about/]. That means at the very most only 26,190 Americans were interviewed. Not exactly a great cross-section of the community.

I see you're not convince by the empirical evidence I've gathered. What empirical evidence do you have that suggests the converse?

 

[wulf3n]

The problem here is that one Data set (Crime_in_the_United_States) utilises data obtained by the FBI regarding reported crimes nationwide [http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/1tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_1_crime_in_the_united_states_by_volume_and_rate_per_100000_inhabitants_1993-2012.xls], the other works from a data set consisting of 26,210 interviews across 21 nations [http://www.pewglobal.org/about/]. That means at the very most only 26,190 Americans were interviewed. Not exactly a great cross-section of the community.

I see you're not convince by the empirical evidence I've gathered. What empirical evidence do you have that suggests the converse?

edit: [I don't have evidence but I'm not the one making a claim]

I only accept Complete Empirical evidence, not minor data sets consisting of less than 0.0000083% of the population.

edit: The FBI data is fine, but the Pewglobal data is of such a small portion of the global community it's practically meaningless.

It'd be like asking one household what they believe and applying that belief to an entire state.

 

[chiefohara]

*snip*

I thought it was odd that someone else wrote the same thing I did. You got your quotes mixed up there

Maybe it boils down to the player or the semantics of how different relationships are seen in Mass Effect or DA:O, but as a 32 year old man, ill view and enjoy the 'relationship simulator' in a completely different way that a 13 year old boy will.

Exactly, that's the whole point; How you percieve these things and especially with a bit of life experience.
Some days I feel convinced that the whole gaming community is fresh out of high school with all the energy, zealous vigor and righteous naivite that we see in these topics.
Makes me feel old.

My biggest comfort is that all these people who passionately argue for or against percieved sexism in gaming, will one day realize that it doesn't matter much, when you're working, have kids and a wife/husband. You just sort the bullshit from what's important.

One of the best episodes you've ever done. I don't always agree with what you say on the show but damn, you hit the nail on the head.

Exactly how did he hit the nail on the head, in your opinion?
I'm asking because I think this is one of the most rash and poorly thought out episodes he's done, if not the most, so it's a bit surprising to see people completely and blindly agreeing to it.

oops, my bad. Sorry bout that

 

[CBanana]

Complete Empirical evidence, not minor data sets consisting of less than 0.0000083% of the population.

edit: The FBI data is fine, but the Pewglobal data is of such a small portion of the global community it's practically meaningless.

It'd like asking one household what they believe and applying that belief to an entire state.

Well, if you're saying it's an outlier, then PROVE IT. I've said that the numbers are statistically insignificant but that the numbers in the United States should be the closest.

 

[Yuuki]

Hmm wondering where the Witcher games would fall into this. The sex scenes are there for being there, but at the same time one could argue they are quite tastefully done and at least somewhat gratifying to watch (at least from a male perspective).