Jimquisition: Sexual Failing

[VanQ]

Go and play some good adult visual novels, Jim. Then weep in despair at the fact that Japan, a country that has barely made its first steps into its sexual revolution, actually handles sex in a more mature manner than we do here in the west.

Katawa Shoujo doesn't count. The devs openly admitted that several sex scenes were put in just for the sake of having them.

 

[Mahoshonen]

The problem with the Bioware romances are that they are all optional. While this means they are totally avoidable if you don't like them, none of them seem interwoven into the story very well. Instead, everyone seems to want to jump down your pants the second you recruit them. It's really telling when you compare the interactions between different PCs of different sex. For example, in ME2 I really liked the interaction between FemShep and Jack, but if your playing a guy, the only option you have is to fix her emotional problems with your dick.

 

[Cybylt]

I disagree with Jim on this one. Sex being a "culmination" does not detract from a relationship that the fictional characters may have developed. There are sex scenes all over battlestar galactica, but when mass effect has a sex scene it is a false attempt at trying to be mature ? I use both battlestar and mass effect as a comparison, because sex scenes in both makes sense when the galaxy can be annihilated at any time.

Just because person believes a sex scene was just added just so they can have a sex scene does not mean that was the developers intent or how other people perceive it.

The difference being the sex scenes for Mass Effect are the end point for the relationship. They're a goal to accomplish and the relationship doesn't go anywhere from there, ever. The most you get out of it afterwards is, "Hey thanks for being a pretty cool guy Shepard. Well... uhhh, cya ."

And then you go through canned dialogue about the specifics of their race or whatever.

It might work better the the physical aspect of the relationship came sooner and then was followed by the character opening up more emotionally rather than coming off as a reward for completing their own personal check list and agreeing with them more often than not, or asking them to take care of your fish, or asking them what makes their race different from humans, or merely acknowledging their existence(Traynor, Liara).

The fact that they're just slapped on "because that's what BioWare games do" shows how little thought it actually put behind any of it. And if such little consideration is put into it, why are resources wasted on it to begin with? This is like their version of slapping multiplayer into everything where it doesn't belong.

Although the friendzone is a joke/meme, I think Jim shouldn't get so upset at the idea of it.


The "friendzone" isn't that a woman won't sleep with you because you think you've earned it, it is that the woman is leading the man on with hopes of a relationship when she has no wish for that.

At some point it may have meant that, but it has long since turned into the meaning Jim's stated. Though the people who feel they're in this imaginary zone will say they're being lead on anyway, because being friendly is now apparently the same as flirting and showing interest. See also: "Nice" Guy Syndrome.

Dragon Age 1 did have the gift giving mechanic, Dragon Age 2 however did not rely on it nearly as much, you either won good favor through doing what the character wanted or completely countering what they wanted. The first time I played I missed most of the gifts, and I didn't treat a certain male character politely. He started acting up and I'd pick the option where Hawke would make fun of his tantrum or argue him till he straightened out. I literally only picked two flirt options and spent the rest of the game going against everything this character said said. Now it can either be perceived that the romances in DA2 are made more like Mass Effect, little to no challenge, or you can look at it as a pretty interesting bit of romantic development, because the opposite attracts thing is fun. Then again, there are some shaky ground on the fact you can completely, utterly violate a few character's core beliefs and still lock them into sex.

DA 2 worked a bit differently in that Friendship/Rivalry and Romantic interest were two separate sliding scales. It's neat idea in that there are indeed antagonistic relationships that still result in attraction but the execution was terrible. The two systems having absolutely no interraction is likely part of the problem because you'd think being the complete antithesis to their beliefs would deter them in some way.

 

[Sack of Cheese]

Haha, that Heavy Rain part was funny.
I guess we will have to see how it turns out first... If you don't ever start, how else would you make it right?

 

[Masich Seme]

Already posted on the vid, but I figured I'd post here, too.

Jim, before you dismiss Dragon Age 1 or 2, I'd ask that you play through it and romance Zevran and Fenris respectively.

Right to the end of the game.

Two pretty strong examples of sex being used to build the story rather than being a "reward" at the end of a "romance minigame."

Dunno about the other characters in those games, of course, nor Mass Effect. I'm fairly certain there are a couple in both games that do treat sex like the "reward" for the game. But I still would like to see an opinion regarding those two characters. Their love arcs go through the whole game, and they neither begin nor end with sex.


Also, far be it from me to say, but isn't it a tad harsh to judge a game that's not even out until next year based on something a developer mentioned in an interview? To take everything we get regarding the game now at face value is a bit... well, contradictory to that whole not trusting game devs, isn't it? You can't make a whole video about developers falsely advertising something, then complain about advertising for something that doesn't exist yet.

 

[kickyourass]

While I agree with alot of what Jim says, there is one point that I kinda have to disagree one. Having sex be the culmination of a romance does not cheapen or make the romance any less mature just on it's own. Sex is often the culmination of romantic arcs at least in stories that allows sex, it's a (A not THE) logical conclusion to a certain type of plot line.

The actual problem is that a good majority of romantic arcs in games are terrible, and is just an excuse to have sex that's just there for its own sake rather then as the climax (For lack of a better word) of an actual relationship. It's really annoying that Bioware is the best at this sort of thing primarily because everyone else is so much worse. At least with them there's an honest attempt to make you genuinely bond with your partner and there's stuff that happens after sex, even if it is painfully obvious which ones are the 'romance' dialog options.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Katawa Shoujo doesn't count. The devs openly admitted that several sex scenes were put in just for the sake of having them.

I don't remember there being that many. I think Emi and maybe Shizune had the most; and the number never got higher than 5. For a pair of ostensibly healthy, horny teenagers over the course of a year that's a remarkable amount of restraint.

Not saying you're wrong, but maybe I was just too distracted to notice.


On the topic of Mass Effect, it only seems that way if you partner hop between games - if you pick one character and stick with them, the relationship becomes that much more natural and normal. I agree though, after going over the evidence, Het!Fem!Shep got really left behind on options.

 

[kickyourass]

The problem with the Bioware romances are that they are all optional. While this means they are totally avoidable if you don't like them, none of them seem interwoven into the story very well. Instead, everyone seems to want to jump down your pants the second you recruit them. It's really telling when you compare the interactions between different PCs of different sex. For example, in ME2 I really liked the interaction between FemShep and Jack, but if your playing a guy, the only option you have is to fix her emotional problems with your dick.

I have to say thank you, I've always had a nagging problem concerning Bioware's romances but could never put my finger on exactly what it was. Now I know.

Now, I've liked a lot of the romances in Bioware games (or at least I've liked the characters involved) but there's always been a nagging feeling that if it was cut from the game entirely there would be little-to-no appreciable difference. I know making the outcome of a story significantly different based on a romance subplot would make things WAY too complicated for everyone involved, but at least have it impact the story while it's happening enough to notice.

 

[Something Amyss]

"Granted in a lot of cases it is"

Yyyyyyyyeah, and that still doesn't dovetail with my point.

If your argument is "I said something that's similar but not quite the same so you're not telling me what I don't already know," then there's a problem with your argument. If not, the point you're making now isn't the one that I was making or where I was going. I take your point, but I don't totally agree.

I mean, the only commonality is that on some level we're both acknowledging pandering. My point that the accusation is spot-on is part of a larger argument about the nature of the industry itself, which could potentially lead to arguments about whether the gaming industry is really interested in anything deeper or whether it's marketing. Art vs consumables and whatnot.

Or we could go down the "but I kinda sorta said something similar" route.

Honestly, don't act like I didn't read your whole post when you clearly didn't bother to pay attention to my much shorter one.

And because I feel it needs to be stated: I read this response thoroughly, too. I merely quoted the most relevant part for space. Though I've spoken to your larger point, so you should be able to infer this.

 

[Riot3000]

Honestly this whole trying to make sex realistic or relationships more "realistic" just seems pointless and dooomed to fail.

I mean it would really be a big disconnect like say in the mass effect games where I am like the savior of universe and can take in a survive things where I should die a fantasy I can enjoy but I am at the mercy of "realistic" relationship expectations. Yeah all of the no for that matter personally I had no issue with Mass Effect sure it was dumb in some parts but I did grow and care for the characters and the ones I romanced and did see it as a "reward". I remember I brought Tali with me on Mass Effect 2 because I did want to take the chance of something bad happening on that suicide mission. If that makes me the "lonely gamer virgin" stereotype I will accepted with grace. I mean if we are getting mad at the insert reward get sex bring up the Fable series especially Fable 2 then again shooting you spouse is grounds for no fault divorce so lets not open that can of worms.

As for the whole friend zone, nice guy thing people get up in arms about Jim I like you but the sheer black and white view of it was off. All internet spat fest at this is just that I don't where the whining butt smiffing begins or the self righteous butt sniffing ends so IMHO to hell with it all. I swear these things are becoming the equivalent to racial slurs.

My last point before I get too ranty is that trying to make the relationships way to realistic defeats escapism and laughing at the dynamics of human relationships. I mean its like we can't enjoy the absurd cultural dissonance when it comes to establishing human relationships I swear people would be more relax about them IMO if this were the case.




I mean why not treat life like a dating sim.

You are on date what question do you ask?
Option A Wow you have a really nice rack?
Option B Inquire about her penis size preference
Option C Ask about her club activities South University for they piqued your interest and made you want to know more about her.

You choose option C

She is upset that you did notice her rack which was she the reason she wore that dress no wdemon lord Baal has come from hell to enslave the human race.

Bad Ending

 

[Icehearted]

A frightening amount of men genuinely believe that women are living slot machines, spilling sex into your lap if you deposit enough emotional currency into it.

A frightening amount of women also genuinely believe they are living slot machines, spilling sex into his/her lap if he/she deposits enough emotional currency, or even material goods into it. Women that give sex as a gift on special occasions. Women that give sex to make a friend feel better. Women that give sex out of pity. Women that give sex for a drink, or for positive attention, or to exploit a man with poor self esteem and something she wants, or for World of Warcraft gold. Women that give sex as a reward for practically anything, rather than having sex for love, procreation, or just plain old fashioned being horny and wanting to have sex. It is a commodified item in the eyes of women as well as men. Men are not the sole bearers of responsibility for the perception of female sexuality, women are not so powerless that they cannot shoulder this issue or be as ashamed of it as well.

Don't even get me started on the female perspective of the "friend zone". It's bullshit to imply this is a male oriented perspective at all. Hell, I've known women angry or hurt about being "friend-zoned" themselves, which included women that were pouring in emotional currency solely to have that sexual payoff in the end, and a man had the audacity to withold sex for their kind behavior, gifts, or pandering.

I otherwise agree with your points on this "maturity", but women are not powerless, nor do they lack a command of sex or their sexuality. If we're wagging fingers let's be fair about it.

 

[Caelbain]

Wall of text.

I fail to see how this invalidates any of Jim's arguments or makes it ok for men to think this way.

Having a terrible attitude towards women is still a bad thing, even with some women doing it themselves, so... what are you arguing exactly? Do you really think that someone like Jim would genuinly believe such issues to be completely onesided?

 

[Fiairflair]

This episode of Jimquisition made me laugh more than any other.

There are pornos with a more nuanced approach to adult relationships than that.

Classic.

I am hard pressed to think of a game with mature sexual content. It could be argued that AC2 used sex in a way that developed the main protagonist and gave depth to the cultural setting of the game. But they followed it up later with the horse race girl.

Easily the worst offender is The Witcher. The ladies want your body, gents! Collect them all!

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Wall of text.

Wow. Since when did one longish paragraph, one medium-length paragraph, and a short paragraph become a "wall of text"? It takes like 10 seconds to read.

There are clearly delineated paragraph breaks and everything. A "wall of text" would be something like a thousand words with no paragraph breaks. I don't agree with Icehearted's position on this, but calling a post with more than a few sentences a "wall of text" is just ridiculous.

 

[actelon]

I personally liked how after being there for Meril and standing by her side in the darkest of moments, which was done after deliberation, not just to meet the 'end sex' goal, that she moved into Hawke's home but then sadly in the final act everything changed, she moved out but then at the end she was there for you and still loved you.

I really love the romance storylines in Bioware and yes they could do so much more with it, but note I said the romance, I didn't say "Oh I lurve dem titty scenes". Cos I don't, it's the precursor I like and I really like it to be expanded more after any love scenes occur. Liara and FemShep was one that spanned the entire story and I don't think it's fair to slander Bioware so much. Yes sex for the purpose of sex is pretty vapid and doesn't mean 'mature' in the psychological sense, but it is mature content in some context in terms of the age of the player.

Bioware waiting until a third game to introduce a gay male love interest, now that was silly yes.

My problem with Dragon Age is that in the first game there were a bunch of Irish words and titles, but little accents and proper pronunciations and then in DAII the elves were all fecking Irish...But that's another um story.