John Carmack Says No Dedicated Servers for Rage

[SimuLord]

John Carmack is one of the people who made PC gaming what it is today. Few people know the platform better, I'd wager.

So it's really interesting to see him saying this.

Sid Meier, Brian Reynolds, Rick Goodman, and Gabe Newell would like a word with you.

To be honest, I think Carmack was likely more influential than any of them, and probably a better programmer even today.

I mean, he can program on the PS3, so that automatically puts him above Gabe

More influential than Reynolds and Goodman, definitely. On Newell's level, indisputably. But Sid Meier is the grandest of grandmasters, the guy who managed to refine the turn-based empire builder (Civ), the tycoon game (Railroad Tycoon), and even the trading sim (Pirates!, with apologies to Daniel Dumont) into what they would ultimately become, the Michael Jordan of game designers. Carmack can't carry Sid's jock.

I also completely brain-farted on Will Wright as well---Wright is the anti-Carmack, doing for nonviolent gaming what Carmack did for the Tarantino-lover's side of the hobby.

Still, might as well agree to disagree---I'd sooner argue the merits of first-person shooters vs. real-time strategy games with frothing Valve fanboys (search "2004" and "Game of the Year" on these forums...)

 

[TZer0]

I'm actually relatively ok with the lack of a server. AS LONG AS: they come up with a solution that offers the same features that servers did, especially the kicking ability and the low ping rates.

So you're okay with the removal of dedicated server support, as long as all the functionality of dedicated server support remains?

I suppose I can't disagree with that, but it's a bit of a reinvention of the wheel, is it not?

A more or less impossible task. P2P-gaming will never match DS-gaming in the FPS-genre. It works in games where you don't need a low ping, like RTSes (Company of Heroes uses P2P if I'm not wrong) but this lack of dedicated servers is a rather disastrous thing for FPSes on the PC.

 

[Chrissyluky]

I really am glad i decided not to preorder anything inf ward puts out . stuff like this happens.

 

[mattman106]

What did Carmack do that was really, and I mean REALLY good in the past 7 years or so? And I mean, really, worthy of mentioning.

Wolfenstein from 2009 was at best a decent game. Quake Wars was good, but I doubt he had much to do with it.

I was thinking the exact same thing. People in the games press treat him like some sort of luminary but his success is way in the past John Cormack and the a certain extent the whole of id are a washed up relic who failed to change pace with the rest of the world. The gaming media needs to stop giving a shit about what he says until he makes another grade A game.

 

[Spongebobdickpants]

well fuck u to ID your not getting a penny off me

 

[Do4600]

Well fine then I won't buy your game either.

 

[HyenaThePirate]

Well it certainly does suck to be a hardcore PC gamer right now doesn't it? It's a shame really that this is happening, without Mods and stuff PC gaming would become like console online gaming. Fun for a while, that is until the next game comes out. Mods give life into games and can keep them going for years. But alas, no more.

Correction:

Without mods and stuff, PC gaming would become like the DREAMCAST... something gamers fondly remember for it's pleasant surprises and good times, but ultimately slipped away into history when it got left behind because nobody will be making games for it with any frequency justifying the cost of constant upgrades.

 

[Booze Zombie]

I don't get it, unless it's just something they're doing to save on coding and porting times, in which case...

Fuck 'em.

 

[Zer_]

I don't get it, unless it's just something they're doing to save on coding and porting times, in which case...

Fuck 'em.

No... Not at all. id has all the dedicated server code they could ever want. We have yet to even see what kind of multiplayer Rage will have, and for all we know the move to non-dedicated multiplayer might make sense.

 

[Carnagath]

John Carmack is, first and foremost, an engineer. Always has been. Yes, he is one of the best at what he does, but he is really no more than an ambassador for technical innovation (with emphasis on technical). He used to be more relevant when game development was done on a smaller scale and when there weren't at least a dozen more studios out there with insanely hardcore hiring policies that allow them to constantly amaze their customers just as much, if not more. I don't like the fact that we are moving towards a more centralized, unified and "secure" community format for gaming, but since most people out there actually prefer to buy a console once every 5 years and be done with it instead of pouring 1,000$ on their gaming rig every year for the priviledge of smooth gaming, I find it reasonable and can't say I didn't expect it.

 

[mokey91]

I'll stick with TF2, thank you very much.

But if Serious Sam 3 loses dedicated servers....there will be blood.

 

[ucciolord1]

...i..id...
id has abandoned us.....
IT WILL ALL END SOON!!! THE END IS NIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

John Carmack Says No Dedicated Servers for Rage

More bad news, PC gamers: John Carmack, the Big Brain at Rage [http://www.idsoftware.com] probably won't offer support for dedicated servers.

[http://www.infinityward.com/] Despite the best efforts of Infinity Ward, it was widely seen as yet another example of the "dumbing down" of videogaming in favor of people who get confused when they're confronted with more buttons than they have fingers on one hand.


Permalink

I love that quote.

Indeed.

 

[MoNkEyMaFiA]

As a console only player, I don't get what all the fuss is about. Whats so special about the dedicated servers anyway? what do they do differently to console online? why are companies dropping it in favour of other methods, and how are those other methods meant to be better?

So many questions!

If you have never played on a PC, and your multiplayer experience has only been delivered to you via matchmaking, then you will never really understand. But try to imagine a host hosting a game while never turning his console off, and you can always reach that room and play there whenever you want, night or day, because its always on. Now imagine that host has a Pentagon grade internet connection and his X360 can handle 64 players in that room. On top of that, the guy whos the host is actually resurrected Ghandi, so you will all be treated with respect, anyone using racial slurs, being offensive or just detrimental to gameplay experience via TKing or exploiting glitches, is going to be removed from that server forever.

Now imagine dozens and dozens of custom maps running on that server, which you will get for free, because IWs not making them. Then imagine entire communities and forums built around that one room (server). You recognize people who visit that same room, you befriend them, you have fun with these familiar folks.

The story goes on, and thats what were missing. All of it is gone.If your a console player you don't know what your missing but for a PC gamer its like trying to sell me a "outhouse" after I got used to indoor plumbing.

This isn't about giving the PC gamer or buyer what he wants.If Infinity Ward had asked 12 PC gamers what they wanted in a room NONE of them would have said Peer to Peer.Its a inferior experience over Dedicated Severs(DS).
So why go down that route?...In a word Greed & Control.
With DS You can mod,make maps and share your own content,and other do too.
Were talking massive amounts of content http://www.codutility.com/
And it all free.

Console gamers have to pay for any extra content..why because they dont control their severs so they HAVE NO Choice.
So...if you can take away PC gamers ability to do the above they WILL have to buy what you give them.O..thats the GREED bit.The fact that the online game plays inferior or your giving PC gamers a worse experience isn't the issue.
The Future of PC gaming
Imagine the heal of a boot stamping repeat'ly into the face of a PC gamer while the voice of ACTIVISION blairs out "BUY WHAT WE GIVE YOU..NOT WHAT YOU WANT!"

 

[Arcane Azmadi]

This is why I hate the success of MW2 so much- because, in the eyes of developers, its success justifies such bone-headedly moronic moves such as this. Carmack basically admitted that id wouldn't be doing this if IW hadn't done it first, so if MW2 had totally failed as a result that would have dissuaded them and all other developers from merrily following the blind leader over a cliff. But since the console nitwits with no standards of quality have made it such as stupidly over-the-top success (88% of sales have been for consoles so far) they're getting the mistaken idea that this kind of bullshit is acceptable because they'll still sell millions. I weep.

 

[B4D 9R4MM3R]

Oh dear...

I honestly do not know what to say. Other than I hope a trend is not being set.

I would be interested in hearing Carmack's explanation for this.

 

[xDarc]

From the article: "How does it make the experience better for anyone?"

It makes the experience better for Carmack, all the way to the bank! God damn sell out. He's just jealous because MW2 sold more copies of Doom in one day than Doom did throughout it's entire life time... and he wants a piece of that maximum-profit-pie.

 

[ReverseEngineered]

It's sad to hear that many companies are dropping dedicated servers, and I understand their reasons, but to say that dedicated servers are somehow a relic of the past and unnecessary doesn't make sense.

Dedicated servers have many definite advantages. Moderation, customization, community, a "meeting place", dependable pings, and even more difficulty cheating. Of course, all this comes at the cost of having to run a server -- a cost that can either be bourne by the developers or the players.

Don't get me wrong: peer-to-peer has its advantages as well. Matchmaking makes joining a game less complicated and using the player's computer as the server takes the load off of the developers or specific players who would have to provide dedicated hardware.

But all in all, dedicated servers were an advantage to the player. For the bit of added complexity to find a server, you got many benefits. Most of the benefit of peer-to-peer goes to the developer, who no longer needs to host servers or even be dependent on users to host their own servers.

So, really, I can understand why developers chose to take the peer-to-peer route, but hopefully it's clear why PC gamers are disappointed by this and why dedicated servers aren't just a relic that the old guard is fighting to hold on to. Dedicated servers have some real advantages to players; the move to peer-to-peer is in the developer's best interest, not the gamers'.

 

[Gh0st1y_H]

This post is biased as hell. Summary: "Dedicated servers have been huge, and have worked 10 times better than this terrible matchmaking service that keeps popping up. However, if Carmack says that dedicated servers are stupid, then they must be stupid."

Why are developers so determined to underwhelm us with crappy feature after crappy feature?