Joss Whedon deletes twitter account following mass of feminist criticism

[The Lunatic]

It's not terribly surprising.

Ultimately, these kinds of vile people are the same type who believe "Men can't be raped" amongst other such notions of "Privilege".

Occasionally they moonlight as child torture porn apologist too!

Fucked up people hold fucked up opinions and do fucked up things.

My advice? Stay clear.

 

[snekadid]

You guys realise he's been getting questions about how to write strong female characters for years and the answer is more or less I write a strong character who is female. As for all the people complaining about his interpretation of the word female maybe he thought the question was referring to the sex...

Considering "Female" literally means sex, he was correct. I'm sorry Trans Males, you will never be Female, no matter how many surgeries you get, make up you wear or hormones you take, you can't be Female as that requires XX chromosomes. You can be women, that's a gender thing, but you can't be Female.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

Just for the record I (the OP), am a proud flag waving progressive. I simply find this crucifiction and lack of battle-picking kind of a poor tactic.

Here, here. You're a progressive and you'd like to further your causes of choice? Then don't attack people. Don't insult others. Voice your opinions, but don't scream them. If you do, if you crucify your opponents publicly, you aren't much more than a member of a hate mob.

And for God's sake, Tumblr feminists, there's a world's worth of differences between saying "All men are scum" and "I think women could do with an equal amount of representation in society." One statement feels good but is offensive, the other doesn't contain as much verbal expectoration but gets your freaking message across in a constructive manner.

I'm sorry Trans Males, you will never be Female, no matter how many surgeries you get, make up you wear or hormones you take, you can't be Female as that requires XX chromosomes. You can be women, that's a gender thing, but you can't be Female.

This is true on a biological level, but I've always thought that Trans folk were locked in a process of self-identification, not one of some sort of weird physical transmogrification. I'm pretty sure most Trans folk know that they'll never genetically be the gender they perceive themselves to be. Being intersex or trans is a mental state - to be clarified from mental "conditions", as it isn't one. It's a mental state, but it isn't a disorder.

Chalk it up to society's perception of masculinity and femininity being reductive or alternately enabling for nearly anyone on the planet.

 

[TakerFoxx]

It's an internet thing that does drive me nuts. some people can't accept a man and women being "friends" and insist any friendliness is just subtext for romance and/or sex. Hell, it's why we have Widdow/banner after only a few exchanges on screen before AoU, and Marvel's brief animated movie line went Cap/Widdow.

Eh, I didn't have much issue with the Widow/Banner thing. I just chalked it up to them developing a relationship off camera in the 2 years since the events of the first movie. That's perfectly reasonable to me.

They do kiss at that one point. I wanted them to get it on the whole movie, they had good chemistry going.

They did? Huh, I don't remember that at all. Was it actual attraction? Or was it Widow doing the Femme Fatal routine to accomplish something spyish?

It was a disguise thing. They were going down an escalator when Hydra agents wandered by, so they needed a quick way to hide their faces.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

snip

I'm confused, what aspect of her character is being criticized?

Does it even matter? Any movie or character can be run through the Problem-Matic? in order to manufacture something to be outraged by. And this was a guy who went out of his way to suck up to the "progressive" crowd, and got shit on by them anyways:

Spoiler

Dear Lord, what the fuck is wrong with these people? Is this really all what people can get upset about these days? Not the earthquake in Nepal that has a death toll of 7k and still rising? God, this is right down there with that one collage of spoiled teens' facebook posts about not getting an iPad for Christmas.

I really, really, really hate to break out this phrase, but these are the people who need to check their privilege. If getting upset about Joss Whedon, a man you don't know, have likely never met nor will ever meet, is the biggest problem in your life, I can only be envious of the wonderland you live in.

 

[C14N]

What a bunch of self-righteous cunts.

 

[Redryhno]

snip

I'm confused, what aspect of her character is being criticized?

Does it even matter? Any movie or character can be run through the Problem-Matic? in order to manufacture something to be outraged by. And this was a guy who went out of his way to suck up to the "progressive" crowd, and got shit on by them anyways:

Spoiler

Dear Lord, what the fuck is wrong with these people? Is this really all what people can get upset about these days? Not the earthquake in Nepal that has a death toll of 7k and still rising? God, this is right down there with that one collage of spoiled teens' facebook posts about not getting an iPad for Christmas.

I really, really, really hate to break out this phrase, but these are the people who need to check their privilege. If getting upset about Joss Whedon, a man you don't know, have likely never met nor will ever meet, is the biggest problem in your life, I can only be envious of the wonderland you live in.

Oh dear...Is it just me, or are the majority of the people claiming to be transwomen all white? I mean, it's sorta always funny to see the mindset of straight white guys being the root of all evil and the derivatives of it being held by alot of...people that were straight white guys for the majority of their lives.

Not to say that there aren't black transwomen or other minorities raising complaints, but it seems to mostly be the straight white girls raising hell, presumably the second most privileged combination you can get in life if you go through the logic provided.

 

[happyninja42]

It was a disguise thing. They were going down an escalator when Hydra agents wandered by, so they needed a quick way to hide their faces.

Ah, then whoever wrote that initial article talking about her hooking up with another male Avenger can just go piss off then. xD They're reading crap into something that isn't there.

 

[DrownedAmmet]

This doesn't seem that different to me than when nerds complain about any change made to a character that they don't like

 

[IndieForever]

I can't have been the only person who read Whedon's tweet as 'don't write a male character and then just skin it in a woman's body', surely?

This has always been an issue with writing, from the early days of fiction through to modern interactive fiction (or games as you youngsters call them and our studio has had the same problem from time to time. Most of the writers we work with are male, because most of the writers in the industry are male, and it as a very rare talent who can write a convincing female part. Our litmus test is to pass the scripts around female colleagues, friends and family and I can't recall one time where we haven't had to send them back for a re-work along with some pointers.

I read this as Whedon warning the questioner not to simply write a part that had meat and two veg (i.e. write from a solely male point of view) and then assign it to a character with boobs because you end up with something quite unrealistic.

I didn't read it as an attack on trans-gender people *at all*.

Perhaps I'm just too old to be looking for attacks and -phobias in every single sentence I read on the internet.

 

[Olas]

Good for him.

I can't even remember the last time I heard the word "Twitter" in a sentence that wasn't about something stupid and negative.

Let's just... not...

 

[MajorTomServo]

Spoiler

Spoiler: Surely you can't be serious

OT: Black Widow and Hulk's relationship was extremely forced and out of nowhere, calling herself a monster because she couldn't have children was harh (but, I mean, in the heat of the moment she might be emotional about it), and being held in a dungeon for a bit was unnecessary. But being out for blood like this is disgusting, especially since Joss is a rather outspoken feminist an made freaking Buffy. One fuck-up shouldn't negate a lifetime of work.

 

[EHKOS]

I mean, besides Zoe, he really can't. I haven't watched Dollhouse though. It makes me wonder why a lot more people don't just walk away from social media if they're famous. Seems to be a lot more trouble than it's worth. "Let me just check my instagram for all the mean comments the haters left me while I took a nap."

 

[cleric of the order]

Black Widow probably shouldn't exist in the first place. Nor Hawkeye for that matter.

You have a super soldier, a being with literally infinite strength, a God who can control lightning, the smartest man on earth that has one of the most advanced suits of armor on the planet verses... a guy who can aim good and a woman who has some spy training. Woo. Exciting.

funny you should say that

All you have reminded of is the difficulty of running a back crusade party.
You end up with like a handful of mortals and chaos space-marines and the whole thing is hard to balance.
Doesn't mean it is impossible, just difficult (and I trust Josh), copping out on something that could make an experience because a outraged group was against it is selling the work short.

 

[Callate]

It's not 100% clear to me that it was "feminist" criticism, or at least that alone, that drove Whedon off Twitter; there's some mention elsewhere of comic fans being irked about this or that, and heaven knows any fandom can have its share of miscreants. If anyone has anything more solid that Oswalt's claim regarding the departure, I'd love to hear it.

That said, I'm beginning to feel a special kind of loathing for the kind of people who think "entitlement" is something they snarl at other people and are incapable of indulging in themselves.

 

[maninahat]

Can't say I'm not surprised. That's what happens when you try to appeal to this crowd, they may shower you will praise for the short run but as soon as you make a single comment they can consider "problematic" they'll turn at the drop of a dime and pounce like rabid wolves. Guess Whedon had to learn that lesson the hard way.

Whedon has never not been the source of controversy for his approach to feminism and female characters. I tend to find his depictions of women a little seedy and suspect, what with them all being re-skins of the "smart talking, kung-fu kicking babe who sporadically curls up into a bare-foot, sobbing ball" template. He's also never been keen of negative criticism of his work (you should see how he reacted to Alien: Resurrection).

Life isn't a Saturday morning cartoon, some feminists acting like pricks on Twitter doesn't automatically make their opponents the good guys.

OT: Probably best to hold back until an official statement comes from the man himself, this is the Internet, he could have deleted his twitter next week and we'd be blaming a different outrage of the day. These things know no political boundaries, a twitter mob is a twitter mob.

Wholly and entirely agreed on both points.

I think the thread title could be alarmingly irresponsible, given that Joss hasn't given his reasons at all. I object to the inference that any criticism from a feminist perspective is somehow without value - "mass of feminist criticism" seems rather clickbait emotive, given how poorly the term and [broad] ideology is understood by most people (it seems).

As for why Joss isn't on Twitter anymore? Until he says, I'm not going to react, no matter what Patton may say. I'm guessing it's a combination of factors. Hell, it could have more to do with his seemingly increasingly contrary position with Marvel Studios.

Agreed. I don't doubt the possibility that a wave of feminist criticism could be enough to piss anyone off enough to want to leave, but until I actually see him saying that's the case, I won't jump to that conclusion.

 

[DonTsetsi]

There is one proven way to deal with such attacks - mock them. Yeah, both social and actual media will still attack you, but at least you get support and respect from a lot of people.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

People push things to far. The thing they fight for gets lost in all the hatred. Its like PETA. They fight for animal rights yet they lose followers because they act so over the top. Sorry but but attacking the guy that wrote Buffy tv show as anti feminist is just stupid. That guy writes strong female woman.

 

[bossfight1]

BLURGH. See, when it comes to feminists discussing movies/games, I'd always assumed it was usually them asking that we get more female characters that aren't sex symbols (Ivy Valentine, for example); that's the SENSIBLE position, in my mind. Argue your position civilly, don't make an ass of yourself - I know, pipe dreams, but it'd be nice if more people would consider that.

But this crap is just ludicrous. With Whedon's tweet on strong female characters, I got NO implication of hatred towards transgenders - basically him saying one of the rules is "Be a girl." Okay, sure, he might've been able to phrase it a bit better, but still, an army of idiots chose to twist it into something transphobic when it clearly wasn't.

Spoiler

And of course there's THAT crap, and people making such a fucking fuss over it that just adds fuel to the fire. Oh, a character is different in the movie to what they were in the comics? Yeah, sure, throw a bunch of volatile shit at the director, THAT'S reasonable. "YOUR MOVIE RUINED MY LIFE" (top-left corner)-- If your life was ruined by a piece of cinema, then it was clearly in shambles to begin with, dumbass.

Yeah, Twitter's a real piece of shit a good portion of the time. Whedon probably made the right call.