Just trying to save the world
- Thread starter Aramax
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That's silly! Obviously pelting people with lemons is more fun, and requires less initial preparation.Aramax said:
However, I thought the quote actually goes:
When life gives you lemons, throw them back at life and shout "Make your own f****** lemonade!"
dalek sec said:
Fixed for sanity. This sounds like socialism. Which is great. It's never actually been tried before (before you try to argue this point with me anyone, realise what you're getting yourself into). And it's the solution to basically all our problems.Aramax said:
You're on the right track. The things which would stop this from being proper socialism, I have [del]crossed out[/del] and replaced in your definition. These are the same things which would stop your system from working.
Plus "resource based economy" just sounds like barter economy. Which would eventually just revert to what we have now. You may also be interested in LETS [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LETS] and time banking [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Banking].
Optimus Prime said:
It is human nature to work. Even if everything is spoon-fed to us, we still feel a natural urge to be productive.Daye.04 said:
Living in capitalism and knowing no other system for centuries, it is incredibly difficult to separate what is really human nature from what is just behaviour brought on by capitalism, to extract yourself from those ingrained ideas, to step back and see the whole picture of how society could function without money or ownership of the means of production, without being clouded by residual ideas of how people behave under capitalism.
Everyone who is saying that you wouldn't want to work for no obvious reward so that lazy people can sit around all day doing nothing... you are the lazy people who would be sitting around all day doing nothing while the rest of us would be working for no obvious reward so that you can be lazy and sit around all day doing nothing!
The people themselves.Daye.04 said:
They would still be able to have a lot of stuff, they just won't have as much power over everyone else. They can have just as much stuff as they have now, and everyone else will be able to have the same amount (note I said able to have not will have; it's not about equal wealth, but equal access to wealth).
1) That wasn't communism, it was state capitalism [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism].Kukul said:
2) "Western" capitalism has killed over 100m people already and kills about 10m per year worldwide.
No, they're labouring to provide for themselves and others.Optimus Prime said:
Zeke the Freak said:
Likewise, although in my case it is you who has caused me to lose faith.Zeke the Freak said:
Binman totally helps people! There would be all vermin and disease everywhere if it weren't for him!Mazty said:
Only due to a lack of education.
No-one should be driving a Porsche (at least not every day). It is frivolous and vain, and vanity of that kind could not exist with this system.
Having clean toilets is not a reward?Antidamacus said:
Do you get paid for cleaning your own toilet? And yet I take it that your toilet is clean. Explain.
I suppose you could've paid someone to clean it for you but that just begs the question.
Wait your own damn table! Seriously, something like half of the jobs on which resources are currently wasted would be rendered pointless, if they weren't already.
Lucky for you, you wouldn't have to. Remember the bit about money no longer existing?Berithil said:
Everyone would die? Seriously, everyone deciding not to work is not going to happen, so why ask what would happen if that were to occur? You might as well ask what would happen if everyone were to suddenly turn into fish.Berithil said:
Yes thankyou, I read it as a tiny child, as required by school. However, there was never really any attempt to set up communism or socialism, anywhere, ever, yet, or indeed any intention to do so. A country can call itself communist all it wants, it doesn't make it true. The Bolsheviks were wrong to believe it could eventually be set up by first having a bloody revolution to a transitional "first stage". It has to be all at once, or it just reverts back to capitalism.Zeeky_Santos said:
You might as well say that democracy doesn't work by citing the Democratic Republic of Congo, or the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea.
wait wait wait wait, back the fun bus the fuck up.oktalist said:
What is that supposed to mean. Are you saying I am wrong because I want little timmy who-gives-a-damn to work just as hard as Average Joe for the same pay and not encourage for one to not work and the other to work but they both get the same god damned pay? Are you saying those parasites who grub for more luxuries, grub for more free hand outs from the government for free without working a day in there lives, are equal to me, Who knows his place and that he needs to EARN his place in socioty, that he needs to EARN his fun and relaxation, he needs to EARN his keep? You are ENCOURAGING THE FUCKING CANCER OF SOCIOTY! newsflash, PEOPLE ARE NOT EQUAL. When they're born they are, but its the decision of themselves and there parents that makes them better or worse. I am better then the dickweed sitting out side of a diner living in the box who has never even THOUGHT of finding a job. I am less then the person trying to revolutionize the world with his new product. Know your place and try to get higher in life without relying on the government.
Remember, vote for Zeke, my plan doesnt feed the parasites.
Yeah they both would be paid the same... zero.Zeke the Freak said:
Yes.
No you're not.
There would be no government.
There seems to be this idea that socialism is redistribution of wealth, like "each person gets 3 loaves of bread, a pound of butter, a side of beef" and so on. That's not it at all. It simply means you can go into the shop and take however much you want, be it 3 loaves, or 1 loaf or 10 loaves, but why would you take 10 loaves if you're only going to eat 1 or 2? It'd just be extra weight. In this way, getting rid of stupid things that nobody needs, sharing things better, we'd solve poverty and food shortage overnight.
Again, your feeding the parasites of humanity.oktalist said:
and NO GOVERNMENT?
thats one fatal flaw. People will seperate into groups or tribes, each one with a leader, because people cant manage themselves. They need rules and people to protect them. There WILL be crime. Because there WILL be things that people want more of. Drugs for instance. There will be a black market for all the things you'll HAVE to ban to certain people. Guns, drugs and other things of the sort. People need something to work for, and you take away all the legal options, they will turn to Illegal options.
and, again, people WILL die and governments WILL fall because of rebellion. Corperations wont take this lying down. Your taking away their bread and butter.
Entertainment will no longer be made, because no one is gonna make music, make a video game, or host a TV show for free because thoughs are all tedious hard jobs. So youll have a boring "utiopia".
Slaves will probably be put back to use, with people runnin around kidnapping people so they can get paid. Slaves will be used to make the things the government wont. They will establish their own sort of currency. Now i know that sounds kinda far fetched but i assure you that it will happen.
And how about you explain yourself instead of just saying "yes" and "no".
Yes. It is human nature to work. But do you not see how far we're going from human nature? Have you not looked around you on the people surrounding you?oktalist said:
Our previous generation. Most of them would work. No doubt about it. Because they weren't handed everything in their hands. And so they grow up feeling empty inside if they don't work. Our generation? No.
The thing is. About .. Half of our generation would work .. The other half would not. They would slack off without a second thought. How do I know this? because they allready do
Take a look at those claiming to be uncabalbe of working. I don't know how it is at yours. But here. Around 40% of them are fucking the system. They say they have some kind of damage to their backs. Because that's the hardest fraud to detect.
"this is only 40% of people allready screwing the system. Wich would only be like .. 10-20% of all the people" you might say. Shush! I'm not done yet!
The reason why there are so many others that does work is because they haven't figured a plan to fool the government. Or they are afraid of the side-affect of being caught. If you would give them a slight chance of not having to work. They would take it without a doubt.
Now. There would still be about .. 50-60% working. But that's because we haven't had that much of a slack lifestyle yet. Next generation there would be 30-40 saying yes to not having to work and etc, etc. YOu see were I'm going with this. Even though it is in our nature. People are too lazy. They would rather sit inside playing WoW. Have I mentioned the majority of people choosing to live for free with their mothers rather than get out and work?
[HEADING=3][color=3F0548]And no. I'm not one of those who would choose to not work[/color][/HEADING]
Don't tell me you don't see the flaw in letting people choose what they should recieve. You have to see that. One guy would say. "Oh. I do totally deserve a yatch" "Why here you go, good sir""Wait. I meant two yatch""Of course, sir. Here you go.""No .. On a second thought. Five'll do""As you wish, sir. Here's your five yatch". We would run out of resources within the first month. This would never work. You have to realize that.oktalist said:
Screw power. If one guy sees the other with a neat car. This other guy will also demand a neat car. So yes. They will have. If everyone will have equal access, they'll all also eventually have equal wealth too. Easy as Dell. People are just too greedy. They want everything the other has. Period.oktalist said:
If I ever become president, your going to be my VP. lolDaye.04 said:
Good points, but I think the 2 people fighting for this up and left.
BTW, remember a vote for Zeke is a vote for awsome.
Well no government was maybe slightly too strong of a statement, but it's pretty close. Although there would be some sort of minimal court system to enforce laws, lawbreaking would be uncommon, as there would be little motive for it when anyone can have anything they desire.
Also slavery is capitalism, being forced to work a shitty job to stay alive.
Also I've explained too much already in other threads.
And I'd prefer to point you at books, articles, videos where the subject is explained much better than I ever could:
World Socialist Movement [http://www.worldsocialism.org/]
Socialist Party of Great Britain [http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/]
YouTube video (50 mins) [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hentIFNmZFo]
Yes there'd be local self-organisation, no leaders, people can manage themselves.Zeke the Freak said:
Drugs - no problem. Guns - well, you can have a gun, but what are you going to shoot? Bears?
That's what I said.
Who could possibly disagree so strongly with it that they would take up arms against us? Except the 0.01% of people who would lose their power to tell the rest of us what to do. And what are they going to do against the other 99.99% of us?
Lucky for us they won't be able to do a damn thing about it.
People are still going to make art. There will still be artists. Just don't expect to be playing Halo 7, watching Big Brother 2021 or listening to Blink 183.
How would that work? What would be the point? What are you going to buy with money that you couldn't get anyway?
Did you forget again, there's no government? This is getting laughable. Seriously, slaves?
Also slavery is capitalism, being forced to work a shitty job to stay alive.
Again, why? What possible reason could they have for doing that?
The intelligence of a statement is not a function of the number of words it contains.
Also I've explained too much already in other threads.
And I'd prefer to point you at books, articles, videos where the subject is explained much better than I ever could:
World Socialist Movement [http://www.worldsocialism.org/]
Socialist Party of Great Britain [http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/]
YouTube video (50 mins) [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hentIFNmZFo]
Take that to its logical conclusion and you'll be letting handicapped people die if they're incapable of work.Mazty said:
That's why I said "at least not every day". Sure, have a go round a racetrack at the weekend, no worries. But if you drive it to work every day then, to borrow your turn of phrase, you are less valuable to society for it.
You know there are groups who have solutions. Like kill off everyone except for 500 million people who can easily be controlled groups. (Anti Christ Followers and others) THough that isn't very good idea if we want to thrive. A resourse based economy is just asking for a global dictator who will rise up with an army and kill who needs to be killed and then abolish the system and return it to a currency based system. Thus not a very good idaa. Plus when people have everything it breeds stupidity. People need to have to work for what they get other wise we will just go extinct by our own stupidity. When you have everything there is no need to go to war why when you think everyone has everything thing so why would they want to wage a war. Which then leads to further stupid ideas which leads to hinderounces in the system which will make it crash because we can't do "insert extremely long list" for whatever reason and nothing can get done. Can't mine cause we need to protect the environment. Yippy and now how do you expect me to manufacture your ipod without the metal. Can't make that type of plastic it causes harmful toxins which we could just proccess away turning them into benifitial something but nope got to protect the environment. People like to achieve one way or the other. When you have everything or know everything then there is no point to being. You aren't really doing anything usefull so we might as well just get rid of you as you are literaly a waste of oxygen thus we only would need about that 500 million people. Consider that there are 1 billion in china and do the math on your odds of survival. Resourse based is a great idea but we are going to get rid of most of you during it as there would be no point in your existance. It only sounds like a good idea in theory. In practice it is horrible as countries would come to a stand still, nothing would get done, robots would rule mankind...woe what. hold on...Damn apperently they will, continueing people just keep making more people so a global population cap would be put inplace to stop an unlimited growth with the ability to only make x amount of resourses. You get the point. I am against it and for installing a global empire after ridding the world of the element which made it the way it is now. Ultimatly that would be for the best.Aramax said:War against terror, climatic changes, economic crisis, pharmaceutical companies who create half-cures to maximise profits, school shooting, bridges collapsing, etc... what if there was a simple solution to all those problems, wouldn't it be nice?
It's time for all the leaders of this world to start talking about a solution to all of life threatening problems and agree on the most efficient solution to save as many human lives as possible. This solution has been found.
Sure there is no perfect solution and there will always be people who aim for other things then happiness but this solution is the closest thing to eutopia since capitalism/communism/socialism.
I'm talking about a resource based economy [http://www.thevenusproject.com/resource_eco.htm].
Let me try to summarise what a resource based economy would be like;
[ol]
[li] There is no money. Everyone get everything they need to live as comfortable as possible from the government for free. ( House, car, bed, table, fridge, oven, washer, dryer, computer, phone, iPod... I hope you get the idea )[/li]
[li] Everyone who wish to work just need to enlist. You get formation for what you wish to accomplish with your life. In the event of mass laziness, robots will be created for the tasks left that needs to be done. People who dont want to or can't work dont have to.[/li]
[li] ... [/li]
[li] Profits. [/li]
[/ol]
There are different opinions about changing all the known economical systems to a Resource-Based Economy but the dominant opinion is not neutrality.
There's the pessimists who think it would ressemble something like this.
There's the optimist (Like me) who think it would ressemble something like this.
In short, people fighting against a resource based economy are assuming that human nature is inherent. People fighting for it are assuming that human nature isn't inherent but the real question would be "Is it wise to keep a monetary economical system under such circumstances?"
In the last great economical depression our modern society litteraly became a shithole where it was less obvious to survive then in the wilderness and many were left to themselves and a good example of this would be the multitude of kids working in coal mines.
All of our current economic systems failled to help us survive as a species a multitude of times... so often that today the whole world is left hungry for change. But the meaning of this "change" is not something that the politicians, the beurocrats or the aristocrats of your society are going to make because those individual dont really care about anything else then their precious money and if they wish to prove me wrong then ask of them to talk publicly about the many benefits of a ressource based economy.
For freedom.
Edit: The whole debate is hypothetical because theoricaly it's possible that the war will just end, that the climate will just restore itself to what it used to be, that the economy will just restabilize itself, that the beurocrats will become more responsible and start to really care about the lives of others, that everyone will stop being lazy go out of boundaries for their salary no matter how much they hate their work, that all the hobos of the world will just find a job, that the third world countries will stop starving to dead and that violence in the world will simply cease... but it's unlikely.
Are you willing to wait and see what will happen or do you guys want to start something that could ultimately save us all?
_____________________________________________________
People fighting against a resource based economy are assuming that human nature is inherent and that everyone need incentive in order to work for a society.
People fighting for a resource based economy are assuming that human nature isn't inherent and that everyone can live a happy life if all of their needs and desire are being fulfilled while they work for society.
Which one are you?
_____________________________________________________
Of course i'm against drastic changes to society because that would create more pain and suffering then anything else. This is why we should take steps toward a definitive change.
[ol]
[li]Talk about it to everyone you know or invite people you know to join the discussions already in place.[/li]
[li]Make people sign a petition to see how many would actually desire a change toward a resource-based economy.[/li]
[li]Send the petition to ellect officials.[/li]
[li]Start a political party that would support a change for a resource-based economy.[/li]
[li]Vote democratically.[/li]
[/ol]
Today is phase 1.