Just trying to save the world

[munkyforce]

Most of them are the exact same thing that are used differently and appear to be different product. Fail.

Water is not a product, only a capitalist would think like that.

What i'm trying to point at is the fact that the question is so trivial that there are no answer. I can only tell you this much; There will be a lot less products but everything is going to become a lot more practical because there wont be any need to make life complicated like a capitalist system used to.

There will be a wider variety of colors and motifs for everything you need because frankly this will become the only thing left to bother with.

Ok so take 51 things from my list and explain to me how they are in fact the same thing with different uses.

Also the question isn't trivial as you claim that there will be no decline in the standard of living. If you're trying to tell me that having a hot bath and heating water on a stove to clean myself are in fact the same then this system isn't really all that futurist is it?

 

[JWAN]

so, can you find me an example of communism working?

Russia - fail
China - fail
Vietnam - fail
North Korea - fail
Cambodia - fail
Cuba - fail
Poland-fail
Czechoslovakia-fail

what about socialism?

Germany - fail
Italy - fail
France - fail
Japan - fail (until they went back to NOT doing stupid crap with money("The Lost Decade")
Hungry - fail
Turkey - Delicious but also a fail
Canada - fail
Dominican Republic - fail
Mexico - fail

The list goes on, feel free to add to it I know I left some out, my bad I have economics homework.

BREAK DOWN THE WORD COMMUNISM ("commune" what does that mean)


stop renaming communism, hasn't it killed enough people? It made Nazi Germany look like a bunch of armatures.

This is nothing like communism? what? because YOU say so? So If I tell you McDonald's on the east side of town is different than the west side of town it IS different because i say so?

Of course this all depends on your defeniton of fail, if you want to live in a mud hut and eat tree roots go ahead.

I'm going to stick with capitalism

All of those system would work if everyone on this planet would back them but, since those system need money to work, there is greed and greed is at the base of all those systems failure. Capitalism will fall victim to this eventually.

A resource-based economy wouldn't have this flaw.

yes it would, you need some kind of form of payment
ever hear of the worlds first profession? Unless your going to trade pigs and chickens like in the middle ages

why would we want to trade anything with some countries anyway? what would posses us to trade with North Korea for example? Would that not just cause more people to starve because that country cant grow anything to trade anyway? Did you ever read about collectivization? the deaths that brought on because of starvation?

 

[Aramax]

Ok so take 51 things from my list and explain to me how they are in fact the same thing with different uses.

Also the question isn't trivial as you claim that there will be no decline in the standard of living. If you're trying to tell me that having a hot bath and heating water on a stove to clean myself are in fact the same then this system isn't really all that futurist is it?

First of all you need to be realistic, you don't need multiple means of transportation so a single transportation device that could carry you anywhere you need to go would suffice. Anything that hold information is in fact the same product so a computer would cover anything with information on it. Nails and screws are different only in shape not in function. I'm no expert on lubricants so I will let others point the flaws in my logic but I'm sure at the base it's the same thing, they just add different ingredients for different use. Soaps is detergent. Deodorant is perfume. Medicine is medicine. Shoes, pants, shirt, socks are clothing. Razor blades, glass, plate, pan, knife, fork, spoon, lighter, cup, clock, calender are tools. Asphalt, concrete, timber are natural resources. are furniture. tobacco, alcohol are food. bandage are medical tools. Bath, water heater, paint, lights, turf, fertiliser are house commodity... This should cover more then half of what you mentioned.

 

[skitzo van]

Well you might as well give up, we've got you outnumbered on this one, and besides humanity is ready to go, if you want proof watch the hell known as "Fox News"

 

[Danzaivar]

First of all you need to be realistic, you dont need multiple means of transportation so a single transportation device that could carry you anywhere you need to go would suffice. Anything that hold information is in fact the same product so a computer would cover anything with information on it. Nails and screws are different only in shape not in function. I'm no expert on lubricants so I will let others point the flaws in my logic but i'm sure at the base it's the same thing, they just add different ingredients for different use. Soaps is detergent. Deodorant is perfume. Medecine is medicine. Shoes, pants, shirt, socks are clothings. Razor blades, glass, plate, pan, knife, fork, spoon, lighter, cup, clock, calender are tools. Asphalt, concrete, timber are natural ressources. are furniture. tobacco, alcohol are food. bandage are medical tools. Bath, water heater, paint, lights, turf, fertiliser are house commodity... This should cover more then half of what you mentioned.

So rather than everything everyone could ever WANT, to everything everyone could ever need?

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

Get this through your skull. What you want is just the End-Game of communism, when money is removed and people only work if it's needed, and do so for the greater good rather than personal gain.

Rather than converting a perfectly functioning society to just 'test' if your dream system works, why not get a gang of people and make a new sovereign entity, if it prospers i'm sure the world will follow suit. Communism was demonstrated and cast aside in much the same way, if it WAS successful it would have almost certainly spread and taken most of the world and become the dominant system, but it didn't.

--

By the way on the water front, you don't pay for water, you pay for the chemicals they put in to CLEAN the water, and the logistics to TRANSPORT the water. Technically it's a service rather than a good.

If air becomes so polluted that you can't breathe it, or if you lived on a space station, you WOULD pay for air. Not because 'Capitalism is evil' but because it cost money to process and refine that air, just because you don't see a value doesn't mean a value isn't there.

 

[Aramax]

You basically just said that you aren't going to give someone the time of day unless it suits you...

So by default your world couldn't work if YOU were in it. If no body worked (because I don't think there is a single human being out there who would work for free), than society would crumble. Who's going to build these robots? Who's going to repair these robots? No one, so no one doing nothing means that everyone will die. So unless your plan was to kill everyone in the first place, than that's a pretty satirical way of saving someone.

I'm not going to argue with you on the fact that I don't want to give the time of day to people who have a clock in the operating system of their computer they're using. Arguing with some people on the Internet is useless so I don't do it when I know it's going to be pointless.

If you want to point out a real flaw in a resource based economy that would not be based solely on pessimism then send me a private message. I guess it will take some time before I get that badge...

You say no one would want to work, I say everyone would want to work.

Nobody knows for sure... unless we try.

 

[Aramax]

Well you might as well give up, we've got you outnumbered on this one, and besides humanity is ready to go, if you want proof watch the hell known as "Fox News"

I don't really care how many zombies there are. Just don't bite me.

 

[Aramax]

By the way on the water front, you don't pay for water, you pay for the chemicals they put in to CLEAN the water, and the logistics to TRANSPORT the water. Technically it's a service rather than a good.

If air becomes so polluted that you can't breathe it, or if you lived on a space station, you WOULD pay for air. Not because 'Capitalism is evil' but because it cost money to process and refine that air, just because you don't see a value doesn't mean a value isn't there.

Who needs altruism anyway.

 

[Naeberius]

your resource based economy is the final step in Karl Marx's idea of a perfect society. the first few steps require money to advance and become self-sufficient. that was were Russia first fell down. next step is the government taking control of all goods,services and trades, this is where every attempt at socialism stopped. Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely. Once one has power they rarely give it up. after the govt takes everything and distributes it evenly then the govt breaks down and then you have your resource based economy (or lack thereof).
(ps if you stop reading a post because you dont like the first word then you are not accepting any possibilty that you could be wrong or misled and must be some kind of extremist.)

 

[Danzaivar]

By the way on the water front, you don't pay for water, you pay for the chemicals they put in to CLEAN the water, and the logistics to TRANSPORT the water. Technically it's a service rather than a good.

If air becomes so polluted that you can't breathe it, or if you lived on a space station, you WOULD pay for air. Not because 'Capitalism is evil' but because it cost money to process and refine that air, just because you don't see a value doesn't mean a value isn't there.

Who needs altruism anyway.

I see we're past the 'reasonable discussion' phase and on to the 'you're all idiots because none of you see my genius' phase.

If you want to see the flaws with your resource based economy, go ask ANYONE in eastern Europe. They'll explain where it falls down to you from first hand experience.

Of course, you don't want any opinions other than agreement so here we are.

 

[Jussycartwright]

So, to whoever supports this 'perfect equal world and everyone's happy' idea.. Have you ever read a little book called "Animal Farm", by George Orwell?

No? Okay, go do it now. (Or just wiki the general outline. whatever.)

Does the concept sound familiar?

 

[Ranooth]

This world can't saved. Were all human therefore suffer from the flaws of humanity and so our creations and ideas are flaws, no one person is perfect therefore no one can save it.

Now my advice is to just go to the pub, get drunk and have some fun.

 

[Aramax]

So, to whoever supports this 'perfect equal world and everyone's happy' idea.. Have you ever read a little book called "Animal Farm", by George Orwell?

No? Okay, go do it now. (Or just wiki the general outline. whatever.)

Does the concept sound familiar?

http://www.george-orwell.org/Animal_Farm/index.html

Open chapter 1
Ctrl F
Type the word "Money"
Proof of failure

A resource-based economy is a non-monetary system. I could swing the fact that the book Animal farm is just a big pile of propaganda BS but that would just be stating the obvious.

Just for my own enjoyment, here's a part of the book that contradict any similarities to a resource-based economy.

"One Sunday morning, when the animals assembled to receive their orders,
Napoleon announced that he had decided upon a new policy. From now onwards
Animal Farm would engage in trade with the neighbouring farms: not, of
course, for any commercial purpose, but simply in order to obtain certain
materials which were urgently necessary. The needs of the windmill must
override everything else, he said. He was therefore making arrangements to
sell a stack of hay and part of the current year's wheat crop, and later
on, if more money were needed, it would have to be made up by the sale of
eggs, for which there was always a market in Willingdon. The hens, said
Napoleon, should welcome this sacrifice as their own special contribution
towards the building of the windmill."

I hope you understand what i'm saying.

 

[JWAN]

http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=142831590507&h=-5gi0&u=qp9gr&ref=mf

this relates but you need to listen to it carefully to grasp it

 

[Aramax]

http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=142831590507&h=-5gi0&u=qp9gr&ref=mf

this relates but you need to listen to it carefully to grasp it

Always link directly to the url you want people to see. It saves time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioQooFIcgE

Can you explain to me what's the difference between oligarchy and republic?

It's just the laws that changes and the people has something to say since they can vote in a republic. Oligarchy is just an inch away from republic and a republic with a decaying society is even more dangerous then any oligarchy you can name... but if I had to chose I would still chose a republic since it's a lot safer. And we're not talking about forms of government but forms of economic systems.

Apples and oranges.

 

[Jussycartwright]

Ah, but the initial idea of this farm was "All animals are equal"
(Same as this utopian society idea)
As we all know, this ended up becoming "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"

-That's exactly what'll happen with your utopian society if you allow humans to get involved. It's all greed and selfishness that corrupts everyone in the end.

Anyway, there's another story - There was(not sure if what's happened to it now)a cult that was based in Western Australia, that decided that they would make themselves self-sufficient. Everyone would be equal, everyone would do a share of the work, and the fruits of their labour would then be shared among everyone. Good in theory, yeah?

So, this plan worked for a bit, but then a few of these people decided that they were more equal than others...

See where this is heading?

But yeah, in the end chaos ensures, the plan goes to hell and it becomes yet another crazy cult out there!

Summary: If there is any chance of your utopian plan working, your best bet would be to first rid the world of humans. They suck.

P.S.

Apples and oranges.

http://improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume1/v1i3/air-1-3-apples.html

 

[Aramax]

That's exactly what'll happen with your utopian society if you allow humans to get involved. It's all greed and selfishness that corrupts everyone in the end.

How can you tell? There never was a resource-based economy adopted by all the nations of the world or anything similar in form or proportion.

The more this discussion goes on the more i'm convinced of the conclusion I always end up with every single time I start this discussion so I will end it with the same logic I always end up with.

You adore your own greed and selfishness to such a degree that you are willing to fight for it. Pandora's box was open and all that is left is hope. Here's hoping that the world will notice before it's too late.

 

[Zeke the Freak]

That's exactly what'll happen with your utopian society if you allow humans to get involved. It's all greed and selfishness that corrupts everyone in the end.

How can you tell? There never was a resource-based economy adopted by all the nations of the world or anything similar in form or proportion.

There has never been a tree in space, yet i know it doesnt make Jesus.
A hypothisis based on past and current events is a safer, more logically approachable way to all this.

BTW, remember kids, a vote for Zeke is a vote for awesome

 

[Aramax]

A hypothisis based on past and current events is a safer, more logically approachable way to all this.

A test is always more definitive and less conditional. The only fact that you guys have brought up in this discussion was that you were scared of the consequences of a shift from a capitalism system to a resource-based economy system even after I mentioned that it was a last resort plan in case the situation, with every troubles I mentioned in the main post, keeps on deteriorating.

So what is motivating you to keep arguing with me that it's the best solution to our current problems?

Fear or greed?