In no universe is what the Republican Party ran with even remotely close to qualifying as Machiavellian. Like at all.
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They might not be smart enough for it to be as intricate as what we typically associate with machiavellian, but they are certainly vile and callous enough.
Ruthlessness, maybe. Machiavellan thinking and pragmatism, no.
Let's bear in mind the Republican Party was absolutely blown away by an outsider with virtually no political experience, who subsequently effortlessly supplanted it with his own personality cult. This is the culmination of decades of development of the the Republican Party: a hollowed out shell containing rage and bitterness that crumbled in the face of the first wind and piss demagogue to seriosly prod it, thus leading to a four year torrent of unrestrained id and executive incompetence.
What this really demonstrates is that the Republican establishment was actually a bunch of ineffectual, quivering tools who might have been good at voter suppression, but couldn't achieve the most basic task of keeping a grasp over their own party. Consequently they have about as much power as a man riding the back of a rampaging elephant, merely able to take glee on the occasions the elephant happens to trample something they also want trampled.
Do you ever reconsider your opinions here? You're just so very, very wrong about this one single person, I don't know how the other things you're reasonable about don't ever break the Trump delusion in your head. Trump has been doing what Republicans want his whole term because they've been feeding him what to do, and the Democrats refuse to offer him any other option. The man has no personal political will, he just does what people tell him to do. How is that a rampaging elephant?
You are not without some accuracy - but only very partially so.
There are lots of books and reports by now showing us what Trump and his administration are like. Yes, there are things Trump knows and cares nothing about, and will just sign if it's put in front of him and someone he trusts tells him to sign it. But he's also got his own interests and ambitions, and he's prepared to scream, bully and fire people who don't do what they are told to his satisfaction.
He decided out of nowhere to meet Kim Jong-Un when the State Dept. was clearly totally unaware, and duly handed Kim a load of free publicity for the sum achievement of nothing for the USA. He let Erdogan invade the Kurds, clearly not part of the USA's plan. He subverted the State Dept. for personal gain over Ukraine. And so on. He does stuff as it suits him.
Nor are you considering that he appoints the people who might tell him what to do. He appoints chiefly on perceived loyalty, so they're a bunch of yes-men. Take Peter Navarro, a man of dubious competence, temperament and very strange ideas, so honesty-challenged and confident of his own opinion that he references himself under a pseudonym to defend his arguments. Who is Trump listening to and signing off stuff from? The answer is the incompetents, cronies and kooks like Jared Kushner, Mike Pompeo and Peter Navarro that Trump has himself put into office just because they flatter his whims and preconceptions. Thus the entire administration has been filled with Trump-pleasers, so it has become in large part an extension of Trump and all his many, many flaws.
It is both funny and quite sad to see establishment Republicans like Lindsay Graham flip from Trump haters to desperately trying to curry favour with the president with obsequious Tweets, whilst so obviously being outside the circle of trust and getting no respect in return. People like Trump can spot an impotent bootlicker a mile off, and give them the contempt they deserve, knowing they'll just come back for more. A few like Romney realise they've got nothing and will get nothing from Trump, and so stand up for something tangible other than four more years of this circus.
Ok, but those books and reports are all from people willing to trashtalk Trump. Which is how you get the boot from Trump. It's not that he kicks out people based on policy differences. He kicks people out who are mean to him. He's ultra self-centered. He's not taking ideological stances against people who disagree with him, he's taking personal offense at people insulting him.
If foreign powers boost Trump's ego, he listens to them as much as anyone else, it's not that complicated. He didn't subvert the State Department for personal gain in Ukraine, he just went along with the prosecutor general of Ukraine and Rudy Giuliani who were saying things Trump liked. That's it. That's all it is. No subterfuge. No deceit. Just vanity, nothing more. Suck up to Trump and he does stuff for you, insult him and he does the opposite. It's as easily exploited as anything in the whole world, and stupid spiteful people are declining to take advantage because of what letter is next to his name on the ballot.
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What is the difference between people willing to trash talk Trump and those who are not? Trump takes disagreeing with him AS an insult. Trump's " best people" who know him best are the ones telling us he is dangerous, incompetent, and unfit for office. Many of those actually resigned, were not booted or were booted for refusing to lie or participate in illegal activities at his direction. People telling us that they either refused to break the law for him or refused to go along with insane plans to investigate conspiracies are not " mean" to him. Look at what General Kelly, General Mattis, Miles Taylor, and even his long time friend and lawyer Michael Cohen has been telling us here and he actually went to jail because he did what Trump told him to do in the first place.
Trump literally replaced Sessions because he refused to subvert the depart of Justice to be weaponized against his opponents. Even his Republican DOJ appointees are telling us this:
'He's going to be unleashed': Republican DOJ appointees urge against Trump second term
The officials said they’re backing Joe Biden in the hope of restoring “basic honesty and integrity.”
www.politico.com
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Are you honestly defending Sessions? That guy tried to turn the U.S. into a theocracy. I wouldn't really put the religious right above Trump.Trump literally replaced Sessions because he refused to subvert the depart of Justice to be weaponized against his opponents. Even his Republican DOJ appointees are telling us this:
'He's going to be unleashed': Republican DOJ appointees urge against Trump second term
The officials said they’re backing Joe Biden in the hope of restoring “basic honesty and integrity.”
What exactly am I defending Sessions from? Disagreeing with Sessions politics doesn't mean he was wrong to refuse Trumps repeated and extremely public demand for him to weaponize the DOJ. I don't like Sessions at all, but Trumps attempts to subvert the DOJ even then were far from subtle. Hell, nothing Trump does is subtle. He just blatantly and publicly tells people to break the law and they either do it or refuse as Sessions did. This idea that Trump only fires people that are mean to him is asinine. Trump fires people who will not break the law for him or pander to the insane ideas he pushes. That doesn't mean those people are good people or have good policies by any means though, that is another topic all together.
The reason so many people are willing to trashtalk Trump is that his administration is leagues ahead of any administration in decades for its dysfunction, chaos, corruption, and the sheer ineptitude of the president himself. The very existence of those books is a warning, never mind their content.
Your argument here is essentially that Trump is an ignorant and easily manipulated child - the only logical conclusion of which is you're making an argument that he's not unfit to hold office because he's unfit to hold office in a different way. That is how bad it is and what your "defence" of Trump has come down to.
But it's not even true. Trump is absolutely not the sort of bumbling tabula rasa, waiting to be imprinted, that you portray him as.
He's a narcissistic monster, and I really mean monster. Narcissists such as Trump are not some sort of reasonable, fair play, "quid pro quo" types where they reward the person who flatters them the most. They are cruel, arrogant, and domineering. They will set up a competition for who will give them the most love and admiration, and they will take all that love and admiration from all sides, and then they will do whatever the hell they want. You can flatter them, cajole them, praise them all you like, but if they can make a few bucks by screwing you over, you're screwed. Sometimes they'll squash you no matter what you do: they enjoy squashing people, because it makes them feel powerful. Someone in good repute, "I know them", "we've got a good relationship"; The same person when in trouble, "I don't know him": stop being useful to someone like Trump, you're dead to him - there's no loyalty and no friendship. You don't exist as a fully formed, independent person to Trump, he only views you as a tool to manipulate to get what he wants.
Secondly, people like Trump still have beliefs and values. Trump is macho arsehole authoritarian: he admires Putin and wants Putin to admire him in return. Putin will always count for more in his eyes than someone like Merkel. Trump clearly has a huge grudge against Obama: he's going to tear down Obama's accomplishments whether or not he's been flattered to do otherwise. I suspect he's at least mildly (if not substantially) racist, and he will favour white people over black. If you want to pass a bill that will personally cost Trump money, I doubt any amount of buttering him up will do. He's vindictive: if you've opposed him in the past, no matter how much you suck up to him, he's not going to trust you and will look for an opportunity to take you down.
This cute idea that Trump can just be filled with flattery and will duly pull out the goods is little more than a psychologically comforting fantasy. He's not nice and safely controllable, and it is not everyone else's fault that he wasn't prodded in the right direction. He's got his own beliefs, his own motivations, and carries out his own actions, and they're the main part of how we've ended up with this clusterfuck of a presidency.
I'm not now nor ever have been the defense of Trump you make me out to be. Thank you for finally noticing. My problem is your blatant, blatant wrongness.
What more can I say? You've invented a fictional villain for which you lay blame for any and everything you can. That's all this is. You've lost all rationality about this one individual person, and your assessment of him would predict literally none of his behaviors.
It may be a matter of you needing to take off your rose tinted glasses than everyone assessing him wrong. It is irrational to ignore everything he has actually done here and what the people close to him are actually telling you and pretend he is something better at this point. The reality is Trump is a unethical, immoral,lying, incompetent, unfit for office con man. That is not even getting into his actual politics yet. Most of what he does is well beyond that. We have numerous advisors telling us that he is ordering them to do illegal things and that he is unfit for office. That is not " inventing this fictional villain" Refusing to acknowledge that and dismiss everything anyone ever says and believe him instead is what is irrational.
Just think for a second, if what everyone is saying about him is 100% true. What does that actually mean he is here?
What can I say, you're worse than Agema.
Case and point "ordering them to do illegal things". Like, that sounds horrible. but I understand what actually happens. The man is ignorant of the law, and really ignorant of civics. He has to ask his advisors what is and is not within his power as president. When he says "i'd like to do this thing, can we do this thing?" and someone says "no", you can technically describe that as ordering them to do illegal things, but rational people recognize that it's not criminal to be ignorant of the law. Ignorance does not excuse him from the law, but displaying ignorance of a law doesn't mean you violated it. Like, right now there's an argument being made that Trump's family giving RNC speeches from the White House is a campaign finance violation. "Oh my God! He's having his family break the law to steal government resources for his own campaign!" Or, unique circumstances have speeches being given from people's homes... Yeah, he's not Dick Dastardly, no matter how much you want him to be.
If you understand what happened, then why after being told it was illegal did he demand they do it anyways? The issue here is Trump doesn't care what is legal and what is not. Trump places himself above the law. It has 0 to do with him being ignorant of the law. it has 100% to do with he just doesn't care that it is.
I would be thankful if all he had his family do was give speeches. I am not thankful he put unqualified Jared Kushner in charge of procuring medical supplies and equipment in the middle of a pandemic. I am not thankful he is using his position to secure contracts for his daughter, or putting his families business ahead of US business. Trump does not seem to understand the difference between the two. Trump takes nepotism and emoluments clause exploiting to the extreme. I would be thankful if Trump would just get his kids a job working for someone else so they were staying out of US affairs, but he isn't doing that. Hell, he could go get them jobs working for that place Biden's kid was working for. That would be a huge improvement over what we are dealing with now. At least they would be bothering someone else instead.
They are not telling us that he was ignorant of the law, they are telling us that he KNEW that and it didn't matter to him. You again are just making excuses for him because you think his poo smells like roses. The funny thing about Trump is, he would argue he knew what the law was to your face and tell you it didn't matter and you would STILL make excuses for him. When they get him in interviews, he admits all the bad shit he does because he doesn't see a problem with it. Trump thinks he IS the law and he gets to decide what is and is not the law at will..
Trump Claimed 'Magical Authorities' Allowed Him to Do Illegal Things, Says Former Deputy
In a new video, former Homeland Security chief of staff Miles Taylor blasts Trump as vindictive, ill-prepared to be president.
www.rollingstone.com
Trump says he's the nation's top cop, a debatable claim
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump asserts that he is the nation’s top cop, a title more typically accorded the attorney general.
apnews.com
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My assessment of Trump is a basic reasonable summary of narcissists. Seriously, look it up: they are genuinely horrible people. Added to this are considerations of his own beheaviour, plus some delightful insights from various people who know and have experienced Trump. Including one Mary L. Trump (PhD in Clinical Psychology). Yeah, she's got an axe to grind - but she's got a lot of info and the expertise to use it.
My view of Trump as being a dangerous loose cannon is more accurate than yours of an aimless dweeb twiddling his thumbs waiting for someone to tell him what to do, at which point he demands someone pays him enough fawning admiration before he'll go out and do it. That is completely inconsistent with with his behaviour as observed by us and by others behind closed doors.
No, you don't. Read this.
Trump launches a raging rant at Kirstjen Nielsen, who explains what he wants is illegal. Sessions muddies the water because he's in high dudgeon and wants to curry favour, and then at the end of the meeting it is confirmed to Trump Nielsen is right and it's illegal. And then he continues pestering her to do it anyway. Never mind that anecdote showing us what it is like to oppose Trump.
What sort of man toys with the patently absurd notion of pardoning himself? Who encourages staff and associates to knowingly break the law saying he'll just pardon them? Who rigs the DoJ under an AG on the basis of slavish obedience to presidential power and whim? He cheats on his taxes, he cheats his business partners, he cheats on his wives, he cheats at golf, he lies pathologically. This is the measure of the man. He just happens to be ignorant as well.
You can't even summarize your own links in the correct order.
You made it sound like Trump suggested something, was told it was illegal, and then looked to a sycophant for support, but the conversation happened in basically reverse order of that.
Sessions made the wrong suggestion, then Trump concurred, then he was informed she was right afterwards.
And he doesn't "continue pestering her to do it anyway", rather he pesters her about suggestions by Lou Dobbs he saw on TV.
In an argument where I'm telling you he's easily influenced and you say he's the driving force, you took an article with examples of precisely Trump being easily influenced and managed to flip it on its head. I'm telling you, your perspective on Trump is all wrong, you're not even properly understanding what you're reading.
It wasn't just about shutting down the border however:
Trump Claimed 'Magical Authorities' Allowed Him to Do Illegal Things, Says Former Deputy
In a new video, former Homeland Security chief of staff Miles Taylor blasts Trump as vindictive, ill-prepared to be president.
www.rollingstone.com
You can't have trump not wanting them to tell him it is illegal anymore if he didn't know it was illegal. He also wouldn't have told people he had " magical authorities" that let him do illegal things anyways if he hadn't been told it was illegal in the first place.
I think you're getting angry and over-hasty. I see your point, but the article states, second paragraph, "And when the then secretary, Kirstjen Nielsen, warned the president that shutting down the border would be illegal, the then attorney general, Jeff Sessions, approved the radical measure – despite it being against the law."
This is also in the wider context that Trump continued to claim he would shut the border later.
Would you care to actually address the other issues raised, and lil dev's points? It's all very well dickering over a technicality, but you've got a vast amount you've left unanswered.
Not particularly. I addressed the only evidenced claim that Trump isn't just an easily manipulated wiener, and the evidence didn't hold up.