KB+M and gamepads for gaming. Why is there such an issue with either being switched?

[gnihton]

Sure, it's better than controller at a few certain things (FPS aiming), but there are also things that controllers do much better: left analogue stick for movment, for instance. With a keyboard, you're essentially stuck with a digital-input, four button layout for movement with the WASD keys. Essentially a D-pad. You get 8 directions of movement if you include pressing two buttons at the same time, but that's it. Even worse, you cannot select pressure. It's a simple on/off step.

With the left analogue stick, you get 360 degrees of movement. You can move the stick in any direction, and your character will match it identically. That alone is a huge step up from KB+M, and perhaps explains why platformers never took off on computers like they did consoles. Even better, with analogue sticks, you can apply varying degrees of pressure to increase movement in increments. Move the stick slightly forwards, and your character can tiptoe forwards. Move the stick halfway forwards, and they can move up to a leisurely walk. Move it all the way forwards, and they can start jogging at a brisk pace. That is something KB+M simply cannot emulate without additional button presses.

Regarding movement, you can emulate 360 movement by moving the camera with your character, but even that is a step down. In console games, you can move your character in any direction entirely independently of the camera, which is great for a) games that use a fixed camera, or b) games where the main character isn't locked to the centre of the camera lens. You can set up the camera in a console game, then move your character entirely independently of it if you want to. Whereas in PC games, you need to have the camera constantly locked behind the character if you want to be able to move it, and thusly move your character through 360 degrees of movement. For shooters, that's ok. For anything that's not a shooter, it's a fair bit more problematic.

I've seen this point made at least twice in this thread, and I'd like to point out how ill informed it is.

It's true that you can't emulate the analogue pressure sensitivity on a KB, and that you're 'locked' (hardly) to 8 directions relative to the camera, but that's really all, and the latter REALLY is practically nonexistent for anyone that has more than a day's experience with a KB+M.

In fact, for everything other than being able to move a desired amount slower than the limit (which is really not necessary at all) I'd argue KB+M is better for movement.

I mean, just look at this [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAEOiIF8Piw].

That's all movement on a KB+M, and you just can't do any of that on a controller. If you're going to try and argue that you can, how about you lead it with video proof.

 

[J.McMillen]

In reference to Dark Souls, the Steam store page states the following:

Notice:
Microsoft Xbox 360® Controller for Windows® (or equivalent) is strongly recommended.


I normally find that 3rd person games that were also released on a console usually play very well with a controller. Also, a lot of retro platformers usually play better as well.

The only thing I'm getting sick of are developers who release a console game on the PC, but all the in-game prompts refer to pressing a button on the controller instead of which key on the keyboard to press. I'm tired of having to play a keyboard and mouse game, with the controller between my hands so I can perform special actions because someone couldn't be bothered to put they keyboard prompts in. That's just lazy design.

 

[Eternal Visitor]

in my (messed up) mind, I see most of the issues surrounding requiring a gamepad for a PC game as one of 2 things:

1: the game REQUIRES an xbox360 pad, and will not work at all, for any reason, with any other inputs. keyboard? nope. gamepad I actually have (PS2 like low budget wired one)? nope. HAS to be an xbox pad or no dice.. if it's not a cheap and painful 360 port, it sure makes the game feel like one.

2: I'm willing to bet that 98% of x86 (and related) PC users have access to at least a keyboard. (tablets would have neither, and I refuse to consider a trackpad viable for gaming beyond turn based), so requiring an input that we don't already have, something we have to buy separately, feels like an (admittedly minor) insult.


probably missing a big point on this one, but that's how I see things.

 

[Waaghpowa]

Whether you prefer M+KB or a gamepad, what's important is choice. Choice is what makes PC gaming so versatile and objectively better[footnote]Yes, I said objectively. You can go on an on about how you "prefer" something, but at the end of the day, PC gaming is objectively better because of the sheer number of choices and freedom a person has. So let's not make a big deal about this.[/footnote]. As long as the options are there, who cares?

 

[J.McMillen]

1: the game REQUIRES an xbox360 pad, and will not work at all, for any reason, with any other inputs. keyboard? nope. gamepad I actually have (PS2 like low budget wired one)? nope. HAS to be an xbox pad or no dice.. if it's not a cheap and painful 360 port, it sure makes the game feel like one.

2: I'm willing to bet that 98% of x86 (and related) PC users have access to at least a keyboard. (tablets would have neither, and I refuse to consider a trackpad viable for gaming beyond turn based), so requiring an input that we don't already have, something we have to buy separately, feels like an (admittedly minor) insult.

1. I don't think I've seen a PC game that couldn't be played with a K+M. Some games it's just highly recommended to use a controller.

2. So you've spent hundreds, possibly even a couple thousand on a gaming computer and you can't shell out $35 for an XBox controller for your PC. Try playing a flight sim. The cheapest flight sticks start around $35, with some costing several hundred dollars. Plus, what if your processor isn't fast enough, graphics card too old, or you system won't support enough memory? Should you feel insulted because your system is lacking in some way and the developer should have catered to what you own? No, you shouldn't. Being a PC gamer means that sometimes you may have to upgrade your system to play some game, and buying a $35 controller shouldn't be that big a deal.

 

[Savryc]

Eh... There are some strange people out there. Just mute/block/ignore the people that complain about such trivial nonsense and enjoy your gaming however you see fit.

 

[gnihton]

Shnipetty

You didn't specify third person games, and on that topic, the only thing you said in relation to genres was that a mouse is better for fine aiming. You basically said that an analogue stick is superior for movement than a KB, which is a huge piece of nonsense.

Don't get all pissy with me for your own failure to communicate, or at least remember or realise what it was that you communicated.

Also, let me point out that Splinter Cell is available on the PC, and the stealth works just fine without inching along like a beached whale being pushed to sea by a toddler. It hasn't been removed from Steam for being 'unbeatable' or 'broken' or whatever. So no, it's not necessary. There's not some magical force that makes devs implement pressure sensitive features, I'm not even sure if the games you used as examples even support specific gameplay features like variable loudness based on speed themselves.

Also also, you know that your fixed camera argument (with the bobomb example) is completely irrelevant since that was designed with the knowledge that the player would be using an analogue stick. Do you know what the dev would if the game were designed for PC? Not that. Besides, I'm pretty sure you could handle it on a KB+M under those conditions without a problem any way, so I don't understand why you see the need to make a deal of it. YOU might think it's clunky and unresponsive, but the average PC player almost certainly wouldn't unless the game was poorly designed, because they can actually use the input properly.

You'll notice first and foremost that Mario is able to move and turn through 360 degrees without any requirement to move the camera

...
You're not required to turn the camera to turn 360 degrees on a KB either. Do you really not know this? Game movement is based on acceleration with a speed cap, so yes, you can do that on a KB+M, perhaps the circle wouldn't be as fluid on average, but it's still possible, and what's more it it's up to the game designers to decide on the weightyness of your character's movement (so how the acceleration works), meaning that the same movement feel could be easily emulated for a KB if the designers wanted to.

Most games don't do that, because aside from in platformers, people don't want floaty controls, hence why platformers aren't so popular on PC and why KB+M is regarded as superior.

 

[-Dragmire-]

Spoiler: snip

Ever since I've been in the PC gaming scene, there have been numerous times that I have been pretty much ridiculed for using a gamepad with pretty much any PC game compatible with one. I get rude remarks and treated as a moron when I ask if a game supports a gamepad, and I'm called "a dirty console peasant" by quite a few people.

People say that without a shred of irony?

Personally, my favorite FPS control scheme is half a controller(because I can't find the PC equivalent of the wii nunchuck) and a mouse. Sadly, Valve seems to be among the only companies that allow for a controller and mouse to be used simultaneously.


Hotkeys aren't really an issue as my mouse has a few buttons to spare(though I've run into many games that don't recognize the buttons unless I configure it to be something common like middle mouse click) and the available buttons on the controller like L1, L2, L3 and the d-pad if necessary.

maybe the logitech g 13 would be something for you?

but I have no idea how that thing works or if it is compatible wiht most games

I was thinking of something more simple like this.

Sadly, it's not for PC.

Heres what you do.

Connect a Wiimote to your PC via bluetooth

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To-Connect-your-Wiimote-to-your-PC-via-Blueto/

You can then map your movment to the nunchuck control...

Then use the nunchuck in one hand while you use a mouse in the other. I would recommend a logitech G mouse with hotkeys along the side for the buttons you lose like weapon switching by going with a nunchuck.

Edit: Though that thing you showed IS usb, there is always a chance you could map things to it.

Interesting idea, though my PC doesn't have a bluetooth adapter. I may get an external one if I can find it cheap but I don't currently want to buy something that may or may not work. The comments section in the article you linked have mixed results.

EDIT:

The pic I linked is a product that supposedly gives the 360 mouse controls though I hear it's not perfect. Having it 360 compatible may mean it works on PC as well but it doesn't state that on their site.

 

[EnglishBlues]

You could always get a Splitfish Frag FX controller and have the best of both worlds. Left side is the analogue/d-pad side of a gamepad controller, while the right side has all the gamepad buttons fixed to a mouse in place of the right analogue stick. Works for consoles and PC. Boom, problem solved.

I've been using one for my PS3 for the past year, and honestly, I think it should be the default control input for damn near all gaming where you have camera control.

 

[bliebblob]

Sounds to me like there's no real problem whatsoever, you're just asking assholes. It's not 100% clear who exactly you asked, but as a rule of thumb don't rely on people who you can't punch in the face. That VERY much applies to asking questions to online communities.
But if I misunderstood and the replies you quoted actually came from your friends, you need new friends buddy.

 

[viranimus]

Well it is my understanding the hatred for using a gamepad on PC is that purists get upset because they think/feel that it degrades PC gaming, making it no different than console gaming, when it becomes abundantly clear for 90% of games a controller isnt just sufficient, but actually much better and efficient.

I have to think a lot of the resentment of gamepad users toward k&M is the perception that it is "superior" despite more often than not being pointlessly convoluted and needlessly complex and forcing your hands to work in non ergonomic configurations

Each has their strengths and weaknesses, K&M in my personal estimation moreso when forced into WADS configuration with no native ability to adjust it.

I grew up as a console gamer. However ive been PC gaming since the late 90s as well. From my experience there are very few games that "NEED" M&K configurations. The only type that truly needs it being Isometric perspective games. Even shooters do not need it, though for most people they do benefit from mouse control. However as the saying goes, It is a poor craftsman who blames their tools. So too is applicable to FPS shooters who think K&M is required, or that you can only play with a gamepad with things like auto aim assist.

Either or, for the most part it is simply matter of personal taste. No right or wrong.

 

[Tanakh]

The only thing about the argument, is that the keyboard + mouse combo is better for certain genres. (first person shooters, primarily)

And RTS, MMOs, ARTS, Fighting Games; I would say all mayor Esports except maybe sports, wouldn't know about those.

 

[LetalisK]

You could always get a Splitfish Frag FX controller and have the best of both worlds. Left side is the analogue/d-pad side of a gamepad controller, while the right side has all the gamepad buttons fixed to a mouse in place of the right analogue stick. Works for consoles and PC. Boom, problem solved.

I've been using one for my PS3 for the past year, and honestly, I think it should be the default control input for damn near all gaming where you have camera control.

I had one of those and...eeeh. It felt like a poor man's KB+M and I could feel how it was having difficulty translating mouse input to analog stick input for the game. Just felt really clunky. I upgraded to a XIM3. Fucking expensive, but so worth it. It's a damn near 1:1 ratio to the point I could not tell the difference between using a keyboard and mouse on my PS3/Xbox 360 and on my PC and I could even customize all my input better than even on a PC. However, considering this console generation is about done, I wouldn't suggest buying it now unless it's somehow also compatible with PS4/Xbone.

Just looked and they have a much cheaper version now, but it doesn't quite look like it has the insane customizibilty of the XIM3. Edit: The XIM Edge, as it's called, I guess has all the customization put up on the TV screen instead of on it's own personal screen. That's probably why it's so much cheaper. And considering PS4 is utilizing the same input..."stuff" as PS3, I think the Edge would work with a PS4 as well, but that's just speculation right now.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

because they're arrogant ass clowns, did you really need that answering?

we all have our preferences, mine being keyPAD and mouse

although i do use a pad on 3rd person games. dont know why

oh yeah, n reason you dont get this issue on consoles is because KB&M isnt an option

 

[Daygall65]

Skyrim is my prime example, there are so many things I wish I could do in it that aren't an options because of the limitation of a controller. EG button mapping limitations.

I want to play as a Gandalf-esq character, which in Skyrim in all its forms including modded is so far impossible.

What I wish I could do is have my Staff and Sword in hand and it works base like dual wield but the staff has no power attack, holding blocks\deflects but push BOTH buttons and it's a combo swing like Gandalf did on the walls of Minas Tirth. With using the staffs ability *Fire ball, frost, lighting, etc* With a dedicated CAST button like Oblivion had for magick, but it's only for staff.

Above example, perfectly doable on KB+M, I'm not sure how they'd do it on a controller.

I'm just going to ask a basic question, and this is serious because I don't know. Maybe there is.

Are there ANY games that you can name that let you do this?

The primary reason I ask this is because almost everything wrong with gaming is blamed on consoles, even if there's a more realistic expectation. I get the keybinding thing, by the way, but are we sure it's not just because the Gandalf thing isn't quite a staple of fantasy? There's a lot of things that happen in RPGs that make it difficult to represent things like the ubermensch of Tolkien's dry little power fantasy[footnote]and my opinion on Tolkien's work as a boring pile of steaming crap is one of the main reasons I wanted to point out that was asking a serious question, because the two aren't related[/footnote].
I get that it's doable, but the question is: is it done, or is it done often?

Often, there is a slightly more Occam's Razor reason behind these decisions. They're easier or easier to manage.

Oblivion did it, though not in the same way. You could have a touch based spell equipped in the same hand as a sword and use the cast magicka key to use the spell without sheathing the sword, so you could use like a drain life spell while the other guy was guarding against a physical attack, and then swing with the mouse key.

The Gandalf example was just a personal gameplay wish haha. My example was meant to be a template for "Multiple uses of X limited by key bindings*

 

[Yuuki]

I can only see you being ridiculed if you asked that question in PC FPS circles, specifically online multiplayer/competitive communities.

I'll use an example of a thread I recently saw in a Crysis 3 Multiplayer thread:
> Newbie says he's terrible at multiplayer, needs tips
> We proceed to give him tips
> Newbie explains that it's kind of hard for him to pull off what we suggested, his aim & movement sucks
> We tell him that more practice is the only cure
> He finally reveals that he's using an analog controller to play
> We tell him that he needs to immediately make a switch to KB+M because a controller puts him at a huge disadvantage and greatly limits what he can do
> Newbie proceeds to tell us that he's never giving up his beloved controller and is convinced he can learn to play well with it
> We /facepalm

As for why you would get yelled at for playing Witcher 2 or really ANY singleplayer title with a controller on PC, I have no freaking idea. Last I heard Witcher series are RPG's that don't really require any specific aiming/targeting, you just run around swinging your sword right? Sounds like a very gamepad-friendly game.

Driving games especially are really great with a controller. I tried to play Dirt 3 with a keyboard...without variable inputs (i.e. triggers/analog stick) for acceleration or turning, you can only turn at a set angle, you can't fine-tune how hard or shallow you want to turn. That's the limitation of button-based inputs.

As a PC-only gamer I personally won't give a shit what people use to play a singleplayer game (i.e. on their own), it doesn't affect me. Only if we're playing an online FPS and you come to me asking for advice, the first thing I'll confirm is whether you're using KB+M

Basically for anything that requires any kind of aiming (FPS) or precision-work (RTS/MMO), KB+M is your best friend. Feel free to use a controller, but stick to singleplayer for your own good

 

[CrystalShadow]

The only thing about the argument, is that the keyboard + mouse combo is better for certain genres. (first person shooters, primarily)

And RTS, MMOs, ARTS, Fighting Games; I would say all mayor Esports except maybe sports, wouldn't know about those.

I'll give you RTS and MMO's, but fighting games? 0_o? What are you smoking? XD

No, respectfully, you're overstating things here.

I have played far too many PC games that suffer horribly from dodgy controls because of trying to shoehorn keyboard & mouse into genres that don't handle it very well.

There are admittedly a reasonable number of cases where it doesn't matter one way or the other, but those clearly don't amount to anything in these cases...

There are more genres that benefit from keyboard & mouse than just FPS, true, but your list includes some pretty weird choices... XD

 

[Tanakh]

I'll give you RTS and MMO's, but fighting games? 0_o? What are you smoking? XD

You concede RTS and MMO's, I would assume the ARTS genre (or MOBA if you prefer) would naturally be included.

As for fighting games, the KB is better than a gamepad, that is due the input shortcuts it allows; tough I must admit it takes a while to get used to it and grapplers are especially tricky. Of course a hitbox is even better ( http://www.hitboxarcade.com/ ), as you can see is essentially a keyboard, but due the comfort it offers and the posibility of accelerating double taps with thechniques not possible in a regular KB it is just better. For more about the techniques easy on a button based controller and near impossible with a dpad or a stick, see the youtube hitbox vids, great stuff.

Again, I do not remember an Esport in which a controller would be the input of choice. That is not to say you can't win on a controller.

On that note, i need a hitbox... not sure if i should get it right now tough, change of consoles and stuff.