Ladies, how about you?

[Zannah]

I may not care about minor game elements being sexist. But I sure care about lies being told about my favorite game.
Come on man, stop being so serious! Are you a woman yourself or do you feel you have the obligation to be mad, in the name of the gender?

The developers are not sexist, women work at CDPRojektRed, it is a piece of fiction, and the author of the books thought he'd be different and make a less happy world like for example the lord of the rings. To shake up his story a bit.

Am I entitled to say that Game of Thrones is the worst piece of fiction ever because there's whores and boobs in them, and men parading naked women around in public?

There is a destinct difference between characters *in* a piece of fiction being sexist, and a game being sexist. I don't mind something being realistically sexist (Hell, I loved ADWR), though the actual dark ages were a lot less sexist then you might like to believe. The "everyone cracks crude jokes and swears like a sailor" immaturity, that the Witcher's audience seems to appreciate is annoying.

But then - every single female character in the plot is ragingly incompetent, and every female character that does not immediately succumb to Geralts charms is unabashedly evil, I have a problem. And when the game wants me to sympathize with a guy who's currently spooning a poor witches eyes out because she dared look down on him, and the game expects me to feel glee and that she totally had it coming - then a few more lines have been crossed then I'm willing to follow. And that's not "the game world not being nice and clean". That's the dev-team channeling their childhood trauma.

 

[norashepard]

You haven't played it because if you did then you would know some of the most powerful characters in the Witcher are Triss the mage and the female witches.

And the most important characters are a dragon who turns into a woman, elves, women as well as white males.

Just because there are powerful female or PoC characters in a story, the story is not immune to being sexist or racist. And I have played it. I played the entirety of the first game, and well into the third act of the second. Iorveth is important, yes, Triss is "important" even though she really doesn't do much important to the plot, Ves is important, Roche is important, Dandelion is important, all of these people are important. But even if you're important, you can still be treated wrongly. Like, for a real world example: Hilary Clinton? Arguably one of the most important women, nay people, alive today, and what is one of the most often cited 'flaws' with her? Her appearance.

 

[Zannah]

You make so many assumptions it makes me question how long you've played the games. Side characters crack rude jokes and swear like a sailor. And there ARE female characters who do not bone geralt and can disagree with him. The dragon in female form, Shani from the Witcher 1, Sheala de Tancarville, and many more.

I haven't played Witcher 1, due to the entirely unplayable combat system - I'll admit that I was suckered into witcher2 by the fairly good tutorial (and some Pc-gamer pride), and did finish it, due largely to what I'd call the car-wreck effect. (Since it's not like the raging sexism is the only thing wrong with this turd, just the only one relevant to this thread.

Let's talk about those female characters you mention - spoilers ahoi:

Spoiler

Triss Merigold - that accomplishes jack shit for the first third of the game, then gets defeated by a male mage, turned into a statue and spends the rest of the game as the damsel in distress at the mercy of her male kidnappers.

That Inquisition-lady whose name I forgot - that accomplishes nothing until she attempts to break into a place once, and immediately gets kidnapped, beaten up and needs to be rescued by Geralt. (and never does anything else if you side with the Robin-hood knockoff)

Saskia - Gets beaten in a duel by a fifty-something monarch if you side with the inquisition, gets tricked and poisoned like a complete tool, gets beaten in her dragon form, by a white-haired idiot standing on top a tower spamming light attacks, needed to be rescued by Geralt.

The witches - simultaneously the source of all evil in the world, and almost literally defeated offscreen, by their male assassin, and the exclusively male nilfgardians. Serve little purpose other then to be evil and to be set up for a conga line of humiliation, torture and increasingly cruel and graphic death' that the player is supposed to (and is only allowed to express) feel gleefull about, while the only shown male villains are either not adressed in the game (maybe in the enhanced edition, I wouldn't know) or supposed to be regarded as honorable and given a manly warriors death.

I'd like to hear about those 'many more' though.

 

[norashepard]

You haven't played it because if you did then you would know some of the most powerful characters in the Witcher are Triss the mage and the female witches.

And the most important characters are a dragon who turns into a woman, elves, women as well as white males.

Just because there are powerful female or PoC characters in a story, the story is not immune to being sexist or racist. And I have played it. I played the entirety of the first game, and well into the third act of the second. Iorveth is important, yes, Triss is "important" even though she really doesn't do much important to the plot, Ves is important, Roche is important, Dandelion is important, all of these people are important. But even if you're important, you can still be treated wrongly. Like, for a real world example: Hilary Clinton? Arguably one of the most important women, nay people, alive today, and what is one of the most often cited 'flaws' with her? Her appearance.

I happen not to be american, so I don't know much about her. However, how can the story be sexist if certain characters are sexist and certain ones are not?

Is the story sexist then or are the writers or the novels the games are based on?

Well I'd say it's the writers primarily. The original novels were still rather problematic in some ways, but never went as far as the games have done. And the story doesn't really have so many sexist elements (a few here and there, but none are glaring). But the writers, in their depictions of certain characters, chose to make them either stereotypes, plot devices, or sex scene activators, and that's just a little weird.

But basically all I'm saying is that on the whole games can be good, and not generally sexist, but just because they tried to be respectful doesn't mean they were successful on all fronts.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

*Shrug* Hm, guess playing alot of Pen & Paper RPG's made me immune to gender issues in games.
I play what i feel fits the game and/or my current mood the most. When i can choose it ends up in a roughly 50/50-split over all my games.
And if there's a preset character, i just enjoy his story. So either way im fine.

There could be more female protagonists though. No wait: There could be more interesting protagonists.
More often the characters are more or less stereotypes - no matter the gender, skin color or sexual preferences.
More diversity & depth, then im happy.

Captcha: Brush your teeth
How does it know, that i'm eating

 

[APersonHere]

I honestly choose the gender of who I play as based on the game's setting. When I played World of Warcraft back in 2006 I had an equal number of male and female characters. Oblivion I played as a male, Skyrim as a female. Mass Effect 1 and 2 I played as FemShep (and seeing the male version in YouTube videos is just plain weird to me.) Fallout 3 and New Vegas, again, I chose characters of both genders.

For Saint's Row 3 I chose an overweight blue guy wearing womens' clothing who spoke in the Australian(?) accent. Later I played Saint's Row 2 as a thin hispanic woman, because I wanted a different experience.

I think I prefer to let my interpretation of the characters to guide me and not impose myself on the character. I don't play Gears of War / Super Meaty Hunky Men kind of games anyway.

 

[norashepard]

So you'd rather all fantasy worlds be completely free of sexualized characters or female stereotypes? Good luck finding one.

And could I not also be offended that they decided to make Geralt a boning grump?

Yeah, and how is it so terrible that I would like to see that, when a great many fantasy universes don't have any traces of the same objectification and stereotyping of male characters? It can be done, and it has been done in quite a few fantasy novels. So when people don't bother to do it, it's just silly and lazy and I'm sorry if I don't want to play a game made by silly lazy people who don't care to acknowledge my gender in a way that is more than what is in my pants.

And yes, you could entirely get pissed off that Geralt is a boning grump, especially because he is essentially committing adultery every time he bones grumpily (the game constantly points out that his one true love is missing and he wants to find her, but not enough to keep is pants on evidently). You could also get made that they changed the source text, where Geralt wasn't nearly so sex hungry. You could get mad a whole host of things. But judging by your question, you weren't. So until that hypothetical offense becomes real, well, it isn't real.

 

[Raikas]

I suppose it is in the game itself. Because you're a man who fights in it. But I don't feel empowered when I play it. That is why I see it more as a feeling a person has himself, rather than something intrinsic to the game. It's not a fact that the game is made to empower men.

Well, I don't think the idea of male power fantasy is about empowerment in a general sense - it's about (to be blunt) fighting and fucking. And fighting and fucking is very much an part of the first game (we can argue about the lady cards being a non-essential minigame, but they were memorable and worked with the overall game so I think it's fair to talk about them).

And again, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing - I was entertained, myself - but I think it's fair to say that it's a bit problematic (and maybe more than a bit, depending on your perspective).

Is the story sexist then or are the writers or the novels the games are based on?

Some of it is probably more about it being male-focused than sexist, no? At least in the context of this thread, it seems like that's the bigger issue.

 

[LiMaSaRe]

I apologize for posting in your thread as a male, but Im OT
I don't have any problem playing a female in games really. It can be a fun change, roleplaying as someone that different from myself. Really even in first-person-customizable-character-self-insert games I construct characters entirely different from myself and play as them.
I don't get too much the appeal of customizing a character anyway, but one of my best guy-friends can happily spend 2 hours painting a virtual dirtbike before a race so it's not a gender thing.

 

[Raikas]

In or history it was mostly men who were soldiers and leaders.

Uh, when did anyone say otherwise?

I don't get too much the appeal of customizing a character anyway, but one of my best guy-friends can happily spend 2 hours painting a virtual dirtbike before a race so it's not a gender thing.

Indeed. I usually play male characters, but I appreciate having the ability to customize them and find that adds to replay value in a major way. I've loved some games with set characters, of course, but given the option I'd always go for the one that I can customize.

 

[MetalMagpie]

If given a choice, I prefer the game's main protagonist to have a fixed gender, because I like the protagonist to be a fleshed out character, not just a template for me to project onto. I like getting to know them over the course of the story, until I really care about their struggles.

We've had games in the past with multiple characters with stories, so I don't see why these have to be mutually exclusive. Hell, most aspects of a "create an avatar" deal don't change anything story specific, so you could still have the same story with a fleshed out past, only changing the pronouns. Most of the time, gender doesn't inform character very strongly. It might, but it doesn't have to. And if you can do something like Alien with no specific genders in mind, then why would writing a game be different?

I'm not saying they have to be mutually exclusive. But I've personally never played a game that allows you to pick the gender of the character and has them be a full character, rather than a glorified avatar for the player or a mute puppet following a bunch of NPCs.

(Just to be clear, I don't count any character you get dialogue options for as a "full character". If I'm making decisions about what they say, then that ruins my fun of getting to know them.)

You can certainly write characters who can have their gender swapped with no issues. But it doesn't work with all types of character, especially if their interactions with other characters (of fixed gender) are going to be static. For characters who don't have gender-dependent traits like "flirty" or "sexist", a gender swap won't affect them strongly, but it is likely to still affect them in small ways. For example, people I know who are fans of Mass Effect find the scene where Shepard head-butts another character kick-ass when Shepard is male, but hilarious when Shepard is female, which may or may not be the reaction the writers were looking for!

More importantly, swapping gender is very likely to affect how other characters response to the protagonist. Some games like Dragon Age Origins try to cope with this by programming in different responses depending on which gender you picked (so random NPCs can know whether to remark on the hero's bosoms or not), while other games like Mount and Blade don't even bother to swap the pronouns.

I have no problem with having the option to play through the game using different characters (although I can't think of a game like this I've ever played), as long as they're all individual characters with their own personalities. Playing the same story again, but with a different hero who reacts to situations in different ways is quite a fun idea. As long as that doesn't mean the plot needs to be dull/simplistic/predictable in order to cope with multiple people as the hero.

 

[Zannah]

I've personally never played a game that allows you to pick the gender of the character and has them be a full character, rather than a glorified avatar for the player or a mute puppet following a bunch of NPCs.

While I have a ton of issues with your post, atleast some of which are somewhat related to the underlying topic but that I really can't be bothered to take apart - Try Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines - drastically different dialogue depending on which clan you choose, up to and including drastically changing the gameplay.

Also - I'm really interested in those amazingly interesting protagonists everyone is playing, that are totally so much better then giving the player customization freedom - would anyone be interested in naming a few for me?

 

[evilneko]

Meh.

Naturally I prefer a female avatar, but it's not gonna stop me if the game is decent.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

I've personally never played a game that allows you to pick the gender of the character and has them be a full character, rather than a glorified avatar for the player or a mute puppet following a bunch of NPCs.

While I have a ton of issues with your post, atleast some of which are somewhat related to the underlying topic but that I really can't be bothered to take apart - Try Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines - drastically different dialogue depending on which clan you choose, up to and including drastically changing the gameplay.

Also - I'm really interested in those amazingly interesting protagonists everyone is playing, that are totally so much better then giving the player customization freedom - would anyone be interested in naming a few for me?

Originally, I was gonna do a humorous list of great PCs in games which feature Dialogue trees, thereby playfully invalidating them as characters, as specified by the rule-set posted above by someone else.


Now, for some games I feel wouldn't do that well with giving the player a choice to customize their gender:

Deus Ex,DX Invisible War and DX:HR
I don't know why, but these character just wouldn't be the same if they were to be gender swapped, might be because I am biased or something or sexist or misogynist or whatever, but something about the very tight pacing of the story makes it very clear that all of it was written with a male character in mind, and most of it wouldn't work with a female character in his place.

Then again, their games feature dialogue trees, so I guess they don't qualify as "great characters".

Ramza Beoulve - Final Fantasy Tactics.
The way the game is set up and Ramza is presented to you, as an heir to a noble house etc, with his sister and his relationship with her being important to the plot, it becomes quite apparent, that in this very game world, Ramza could not be a female, not because females can't kick ass (Agrias anyone?), but because it seems to be very apparent that his is a very traditional upbringing, and since the game already centers the plot on his revolution, adding to that by having him be a her revolting against the traditional role set for her by society, as would be necessary to make it possible to have a female character in the game, would feel kinda weird, like having one too many plots, seeing as the plot is already quite complex as is, also the dynamic between the player character and the sister would have to be changed drastically, with the sister sticking to a more traditional role and the PC being an "unconventional" rebel, as would the dynamic between the player character and the older brothers of house Beoulve, which in turn means that the plot would have to be drastically altered to accomodate for giving the player the option to choose their gender.

Metal Gear Solid - Big Boss.

Why should we not change him?

The beard. That magnificent, wondrous, powerful beard.


The Arkham Series - Batman.

Because he is Batman.

Okami - Amaterasu.
Being based on japanese mythologie, changing her gender would be kind of weird, would it not?



Now for some games which could quite possibly do the gender shake-up:

Vanquish: The protagonist is a robot zipping around on the battlefield and firing of one-liners in addition to firing his weapons. Don't really see a reason why he couldn't be a she.

God Hand: Seeing as this game is all kinds of crazy, the protagonist could well be a badass streetfighting woman instead of the badass streetfighting man. Some NPCs would have to change to accomodate for this though.

Any of the usual "Space Marine WHAAARGLSP Spungarglweewee" games.
The "characters" are mostly superficial anyways, so why not give player the option to choose their gender?

 

[APersonHere]

Also - I'm really interested in those amazingly interesting protagonists everyone is playing, that are totally so much better then giving the player customization freedom - would anyone be interested in naming a few for me?

How about the protagonists to Silent Hill 2 and 3? Lara Croft? Ethan in Heavy Rain? You DEFINITELY can't stick boobs or a dick on those characters and expect the plot to play out the same.

Elder Scrolls / Bioware games are actually the minority in that you can pick the character's gender and customize the hell out of them. As a result, Elder Scrolls basically has no characterization for the protagonist (you don't even get a prerecorded male or female voice to speak with), and Bioware games will inevitably fit into the "Man with Boobs" trope where your gender only determines differences in 1/1000 NPC/player interactions.