Lauren Southern speaks to Feminists at "SlutWalk".

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tm96

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Skatologist said:
Fappy said:
BloatedGuppy said:
Fappy I've had it up to here with your tireless clown bashing. I'm putting my foot down!
Clowns get what they deserve! I mean, come on! They prance around with those sexy noses with no regard for their own safety, for Christ's sake! How stupid could they be?!

And that face paint?! It's a lie to entice young children into laughing! IT'S MANIPULATION, GOD DAMMIT!
Of course they deserve all those pies to the face! (We were talking about cream pies right?)
I always thought they liked banana creampies the best. Warm, creamy and sticky.
 
Sep 13, 2009
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Oh man, this video... I didn't expect it to be good, but I just love how they cut it in such a way that it cuts off the responses to when she launches her "zingers".

For the record, the 1/10 rapes are reported statistic, to my knowledge, comes from comparing the number of reported rapes the police get to the number reported in anonymous surveys. Or, as the woman was trying to say in the video, they go to women's shelters, but don't report it to the police
 

carnex

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BloatedGuppy said:
silver wolf009 said:
I have always been curious where the number of unreported rapes come from. What do you have to do to count a rape as reported? How do you come to a percentage when, by definition, you don't have information to draw upon since the acts are going unreported?
I'm not sure either. The statistics have always seemed fuzzy. The general consensus is that unreported cases of sexual assault/rape is very high among women and men.

One thing to keep in mind is that the overwhelming number of reported rapes are not the oft publicized "stranger rape", where a masked man jumps from the shadows and assails a passerby. It's almost always a friend, or acquaintance, or even a lover. Which seriously complicates the question of "do I report this". What if it's a parent? Or a coach? Or a priest? There was a very moving set of photos of male rape victims on Imgur the other day, holding up signs about their experiences. A Dad said he'd kill the mother if the kid told. Another said he'd kill his sisters (and told the sisters he'd kill their brother when he was raping them). Others threatened expulsion, or that they'd be a laughing stock if word got out.

I have a female friend who was raped by a co-worker. She refused to say anything about it because he was friends with the boss, and she was a relatively new hire fresh out of school.

For a lot of victims, the act of reporting it and having your sexual history combed through and put up as a defense, or being attacked/demonized by the family and friends of the accused, or sitting through a rape kit and being violated all over again, is worse than just staying silent.

And it's a fucking hard crime to prosecute, and often boils down into a case of conflicting stories.
But here's the question, what do you do?

- if victim never comes forward, you can?t accuse or prosecute anyone.
- if victim refuses to endure evidence retrieval, you can?t really prosecute anyone or at the very least victim itself seriously undermines its case.
- if victim refuses to take immediate interrogation for fact establishment you can?t really prosecute anyone or at the very least victim itself seriously undermines its case.

The ideal justice system, as we accept it today, is based around protection of innocent, not reprimanding the wrongdoers. That's why western courts have such high standards for condemning individuals and that's why so many slip through.

It boils down to how many innocent you want to throw to the wolves. Go up from 1% to, let's say, 10% and justice would be much swifter and more criminal elements would be removed from the street. But would you live in society where there was 1 in 10 chance that you could be imprisoned upon being wrongly accused?

I don't even want to go to inevitable problems of such system like rampant corruption, nepotism etc.
 
Sep 13, 2009
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Skatologist said:
Also this. Watching their second most viewed video on their YT channel because I think I'll have enough of Southern for one lifetime, I see them unashamedly use the term "social justice warrior" in relation to people who are prochoice/pro abortion based on it being a right to a woman's bodily autonomy, interviewed a guy who went only slightly farther in his prochoice stance than I would, and pull the same shit of not pulling the interview when he wanted out. This seems like a trend.
I just watched the one where they interviewed Noam Chomsky, and keep trying to get him to say that the leftists are destroying free speech while he keeps saying, "Um... not really".

It's funny, in a painful sort of way
 

CrystalShadow

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BloatedGuppy said:
silver wolf009 said:
I have always been curious where the number of unreported rapes come from. What do you have to do to count a rape as reported? How do you come to a percentage when, by definition, you don't have information to draw upon since the acts are going unreported?
I'm not sure either. The statistics have always seemed fuzzy. The general consensus is that unreported cases of sexual assault/rape is very high among women and men.
Mmm. Statistics. Statistics are a very detached, abstract thing, so far removed from the reality...

One thing to keep in mind is that the overwhelming number of reported rapes are not the oft publicized "stranger rape", where a masked man jumps from the shadows and assails a passerby. It's almost always a friend, or acquaintance, or even a lover. Which seriously complicates the question of "do I report this".
Yeah... So care to read a personal story?
Yes... Unfortunately. When it happened to me I didn't see it coming. I mean, this wasn't someone I really knew, but it wasn't a stranger randomly grabbing me and dragging me off somewhere either, the way this stuff often seems to get portrayed.

And, you know. it was complicated. I liked the guy. >_>
He was actually kind of nice in a lot of ways.
Just had absolutely no awareness of boundaries or consent or anything like that...
And that's the scariest part to me. How casual he was about it. How little awareness he seemed to have of even the idea that he might have done something he shouldn't have.
If you want to talk about 'rape culture' in some abstract, fuzzy sense, and pull up statistics, and stuff that's one thing, but an experience like that told me more than any statistics.
This wasn't some horrible monster having a power trip. Or some crazy person with no self-control.
This was just an ordinary guy with such a complete lack of awareness or regard to the situation, or what this stuff is like on my end, that he basically felt like he could do anything, just because I'd been friendly to him, and chose to spend a bit of time with him. He mistook my hesitance and resistance for a game... Just started doing stuff... And didn't seem to have much regard at all for my obvious pain and discomfort, or me telling him to stop...

And this... This is 'unreported' rape... >_>
You might well ask, why didn't I report this? Why would I ignore it? Well... To begin with, I liked the guy. I even felt sorry for him, and his apparent total ignorance of what he was doing... in some weird, twisted way.
But on top of that... You think experiencing that is traumatic? It was. But the prospect of being examined, probed, questioned, and, honestly, probably treated like dirt, and to have to go through a long, drawn-out trial, where undoubtedly people would end up questioning my honesty, motives, sexuality and lots of other stuff?
I feel I can safely say going down that path would turn what was, in the end only a moderately traumatic event, into a hellish, protracted, drawn out nightmare, going over the events again, and again, and again, and again... In minute detail...
And for what, exactly?
No. I don't think it's worth the trauma, honestly...

And it's a fucking hard crime to prosecute, and often boils down into a case of conflicting stories.
And there is that too...
When the most you can hope to gain is a dubious 'punishment', or at best, perhaps stopping it happening to someone else. (but... There's no way to know that, given what the typical sentence looks like even if convicted)...
Is that worth it?
I really don't know if it is...

carnex said:
BloatedGuppy said:
And it's a fucking hard crime to prosecute, and often boils down into a case of conflicting stories.

The ideal justice system, as we accept it today, is based around protection of innocent, not reprimanding the wrongdoers. That's why western courts have such high standards for condemning individuals and that's why so many slip through.

It boils down to how many innocent you want to throw to the wolves. Go up from 1% to, let's say, 10% and justice would be much swifter and more criminal elements would be removed from the street. But would you live in society where there was 1 in 10 chance that you could be imprisoned upon being wrongly accused?

I don't even want to go to inevitable problems of such system like rampant corruption, nepotism etc.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but according to various statistics related to the US prison system, false conviction rates are already at 10%, at least in the US.
Especially for more serious crimes where the sentences are generally harsher as well. >_>
(And this is going on statistics only of people who are proven innocent some time after their original trial, because of some new evidence that proves their innocence)
 

mad825

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I find it funny when feminist turn against their own kind, even funnier when they use sexist vulgar.
MarsAtlas said:
You go to a protest and hold up a sign basically saying "the entire premise for this protest is bullshit", what would you expect?
Really depends on protest and protesters. I wouldn't do that when a extremist group is protesting neither when there's serious political matters at hand - something not like this. Counter protesting is more common than you think.
 

carnex

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Jan 9, 2008
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Pluvia said:
carnex said:
But here's the question, what do you do?
Well one thing that could be done is shift cultural attitudes about rape and make it seen as being more acceptable for people to report rapes as quickly as possible to the police.

It sounds obvious, but rape is one of the few crimes that has an unusually high amount of people "pushing back" against it being reported to police, focused on (the problem the interviewer has with it in this video), or having the definition of consent taught about. Even here on this forum you'll find people that don't think "No is no" should be taught, or suggesting that if you're raped you should perhaps just cut contact with your rapist rather than reporting them to the police.

There's nothing that can be done if rapes aren't reported, so what should be done is addressing the problems as to why they're not reported.
I don't think there is as much cultural problem with rape being reported, as its personal thing. Rape is probably most intimate and personal assault one can do to other since out sexuality is probably our most valued aspect on emotional scale. I have seen people arguing that pressuring people into reporting rape is a bad thing, and due to emotional distress that they will have to endure, preferably immediately after they got raped, often while in the state of shock even, one can easily see their point.

At least in the western world there is a little chance of person being ostracized by persons in their life because they are rape victims. Attitudes towards that person would change, that's granted, but not because people are malicious. Quite the contrary, it's because people start walking around eggshells to avoid that persons feelings. Raped men will end up as but of the joke from time to time but you can cut such assholes from your life.

As for teaching No being No, that is fine. Unnecessary since that message is drilled into our heads from the day we are born by media, by schools, by society and, in vast, vast majority of cases, by family. And if person decided that NO doesn?t mean no (and to be honest, so many people get off on their No not meaning NO) by the time they hit college, one class sure as hell won't change their mind.

Topic of rape is so emotionally charged that there is no satisfactory solution no matter how you turn it.

There are programs for legal, emotional and financial support for rape victims (well, over 95% of them exclusively for women). There are also programs of protection and even dislocation of victims. And all those programs are funded both by government and voluntarily by public. Can society realistically do more?
 

carnex

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Spot1990 said:
Pluvia said:
carnex said:
But here's the question, what do you do?
Well one thing that could be done is shift cultural attitudes about rape and make it seen as being more acceptable for people to report rapes as quickly as possible to the police.

It sounds obvious, but rape is one of the few crimes that has an unusually high amount of people "pushing back" against it being reported to police, focused on (the problem the interviewer has with it in this video), or having the definition of consent taught about. Even here on this forum you'll find people that don't think "No is no" should be taught, or suggesting that if you're raped you should perhaps just cut contact with your rapist rather than reporting them to the police.

There's nothing that can be done if rapes aren't reported, so what should be done is addressing the problems as to why they're not reported.
It doesn't help that "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply when you report a rape, it's closer to "lying whore until you can prove he did it". It's a phrase so often thrown around to protect the accused but often is just casting doubt on the innocence of the victim. Much more than I've ever seen with any other crime. Take the Bill Cosby situation. People are still accusing the 34(or whatever it's up to now) women of all being lying/fame hungry/money hungry/whores. That is not "innocent until proven guilty", that's evidence of society's iffy stance on reporting rape. That's turning the alleged victims into the guilty party.
How are you missing the obvious? Every society that developed pas some arbitrary point developed power and fame fetish. If it was some random dude from the street he wouldn't have same luxury of doubt in public eye.

Someone once said something like "never ascribe to malicious intent what can be satisfactory explained by incompetence or stupidity". Bill Cosby is famous and people love him. Heck, people adore and worship him. That's the reason why he gets that much leeway in public eye, not society's casual approach to rape.

Yes, fame and fortune is a double edged sword and can both exolarate and condemn you, but, you will never be treated like an ordinary person. There is no material evidence tu support accusations against Bill Cosby which makes it really easy for every person that ever had idolized him to dismiss those acusations. People don't like their idols tarnished, plain and simple.
 

FirstNameLastName

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Pluvia said:
carnex said:
But here's the question, what do you do?
Well one thing that could be done is shift cultural attitudes about rape and make it seen as being more acceptable for people to report rapes as quickly as possible to the police.

It sounds obvious, but rape is one of the few crimes that has an unusually high amount of people "pushing back" against it being reported to police, focused on (the problem the interviewer has with it in this video), or having the definition of consent taught about. Even here on this forum you'll find people that don't think "No is no" should be taught, or suggesting that if you're raped you should perhaps just cut contact with your rapist rather than reporting them to the police.

There's nothing that can be done if rapes aren't reported, so what should be done is addressing the problems as to why they're not reported.
The whole "no is no" business is something else entirely that I have a feeling you're misrepresenting, but I've never encountered anyone anywhere who believes that if you're raped you should straight up not report it. Is there any evidence of any significant number of people who actually believe this? I'm sure there are probably one or two arseholes on the internet somewhere, but not enough to actually influence society to any degree.

Also, what's wrong with having the definition of consent discussed? Surely, that is a complex topic worth discussing.

Spot1990 said:
It doesn't help that "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply when you report a rape, it's closer to "lying whore until you can prove he did it". It's a phrase so often thrown around to protect the accused but often is just casting doubt on the innocence of the victim. Much more than I've ever seen with any other crime. Take the Bill Cosby situation. People are still accusing the 34(or whatever it's up to now) women of all being lying/fame hungry/money hungry/whores. That is not "innocent until proven guilty", that's evidence of society's iffy stance on reporting rape. That's turning the alleged victims into the guilty party.
I've seen the exact opposite happen more times than not. Often, the mere accusation of rape, whether credible or not, is enough to get loads of people measuring the accused for the noose. There are crazy people on both sides of this debate.
The reality is that rape is still rather difficult to prove in most cases, and just like any other crime you need evidence to judge someone guilty, not a lynch mob.
 

carnex

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Jan 9, 2008
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Pluvia said:
carnex said:
Pluvia said:
-Snip for space-
I disagree that there's not a cultural problem with rape being reported. While I've not looked at statistics, it's common knowledge that a much lower amount of rapes are actually reported to police than the amount of people who have claimed to have been raped. That there is a clear sign of a problem. I also don't see how you can see someones point that rape shouldn't be reported as quickly as possible. Frankly in future you should not listen to anyone that suggests something so absurd, they're trying to play down rape as something that literally shouldn't be reported to the police. That there is another clear sign of a problem.

You say there's no satisfactory solution, but doing something is better than doing nothing.
Wow, what a way to misrepresent my words. I never said anyone downplayed rape. Although there are people who do that, I never even implied them. I simply pointed out that people vage cost and benefits and find that benefits do not equal or better to cost to their, or victims, emotional and psychological wellbeing.

And I again point it to that fact that rape is most intimate of crimes one can endure. It's making decisions on emotional level and something that intimate will mess your emotions to no end. Add to that conflicting emotions of love/trust/care and hatred/fear that arise in victim, often intensified by previously existing problems and many other factors. You'll end up with stirring cauldron of emotions that has no clear exit, if it indeed it has any RIGHT exit.

Society encourages victims to report rape (well, not entire society but that's topic that would make this thread explode) but problem is so complex that mathematics behind multiverse theory looks quite reasonably simplistic. Western society is doing a LOT to solve the problem, and since crime is insolvable problem and rape is probably least solvable part of that problem, we are doing remarkably well.

Correction, problem will be technically solvable once we can gain ability to tap human memories directly and/or have ability to monitor every person 100% of time, but even then fact that we are humans will still make it unsolved.
 

Dizchu

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Sep 23, 2014
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While I disagree with western societies with actual consequences for rapists being called "rape cultures", I can't really support Lauren Southern's approach to all of this. She is literally trying to shout over people who themselves are shouting, and is vastly outnumbered.

Ironically, she is "asking for it" by holding up those signs and shouting "there's no rape culture" amongst a large group of people that strongly disagree. You know the scene in Die Hard with a Vengeance where John McClane walks through the neighbourhood with the racist sign? Yeah. It felt a bit like that.

Personally I'd let the feminists have their fun, SlutWalk is hardly the most controversial protest there is.
 

Thaluikhain

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Ah, attacking Slutwalk again.

What I find very tiresome is that there are/were plenty of serious issues with Slutwalk, which its critics tend to ignore in favour of the usual scary feminist rubbish.

There were serious issues with how Slutwalk dealt with race, excluding black women and refusing to ban racist signs (and, of course, getting angry with those who pointed this out). This went mostly unmentioned by its critics.

carnex said:
It boils down to how many innocent you want to throw to the wolves. Go up from 1% to, let's say, 10% and justice would be much swifter and more criminal elements would be removed from the street. But would you live in society where there was 1 in 10 chance that you could be imprisoned upon being wrongly accused?
Yeah, I see this argument come up a lot, and IMHO, it completely misses the point (often, I suspect, intentionally, though I'm not accusing you personally of this).

Yes, there is a sliding scale of punishing the guilty vs protecting the innocent. But there's also very serious problems with how rape is handled beyond this. There are very consistent and serious failures in the way it is dealt with.

For example, in the US, massive amounts of rape kits aren't tested, they are thrown into storage and forgotten about. You have charities formed to raise money to test them, but I believe they are piling up faster than charities can get them tested. Often in the ones that are tested they find the DNA of people (occasionally the same people) who are currently in prison for crimes they committed later that they wouldn't have been able to commit if they'd been convicted of their previous rape. It should not be up to charities to test rape kits.

DizzyChuggernaut said:
While I disagree with western societies with actual consequences for rapists being called "rape cultures",
The vast majority of rapists will not face consequences, however.
 

Dizchu

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thaluikhain said:
DizzyChuggernaut said:
While I disagree with western societies with actual consequences for rapists being called "rape cultures",
The vast majority of rapists will not face consequences, however.
True, but that relates more to the difficulty of convicting rapists and the limited widespread cultural perception of what rape is rather than the use of rape as a punishment or deterrent as it is in some other countries. Western societies generally regard the concept of "rape" with a huge weight and social stigma, I feel uncomfortable describing said cultures as ones that permit or encourage rape (as a term like "rape culture" would suggest).

I'd rather attribute such a term to cultures that celebrate sex slavery or cultures that enforce strict modesty laws for women, where rape is regarded as justifiable. In certain holy texts, gods advocate raping and pillaging. Those cultures actively revolve around rape, and as a result I find the term "rape culture" more applicable there. If not, do they warrant an even bolder term?

I realise this may only be a semantic issue, but it appears that semantics are a pretty big obstacle in the communication of these ideas.
 

carnex

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Pluvia said:
I know you never said anyone down played it, and I never suggested you did, instead I pointed out that in future you should not listen to people who do try to down play rape as being something that shouldn't be reported to the police. You said "I have seen people arguing that pressuring people into reporting rape is a bad thing, and due to emotional distress that they will have to endure.. ..one can easily see their point". As you pointed out, those people are literally saying that getting people to report rape is a bad thing. Their point is absurd. We need to change attitudes that makes people entertain this idea that reporting a serious crime to the police is somehow a bad thing. You never said they were downplaying it, which is why I pointed out to you that is what they were doing, and that you should not listen to anyone that suggests that in the future.
And again, you either keep missing the point or you are, on purpose, trying to spin the yarn on different spindle. I didn't say reporting rape is bad and neither did they. They posed a question, is report of the rape, rather slim chance (in most cases rape is next to impossible to prove beyond reasonable doubt even with help of emotional evidence) of conviction for rapist and social stigma worth the emotional pain and psychological anguish and pressure.

We are not species that does what?s good for the sake of the good in vast, vast majority of cases. We do what's good when the benefit of doing it outweighs negatives. Sometimes it means we will sacrifice life or limb, sometimes it means we refuse to sacrifice 10 minutes. There are quite a few notable exception, but they are minority, less than 1%.

thaluikhain said:
Yeah, I see this argument come up a lot, and IMHO, it completely misses the point (often, I suspect, intentionally, though I'm not accusing you personally of this).

Yes, there is a sliding scale of punishing the guilty vs protecting the innocent. But there's also very serious problems with how rape is handled beyond this. There are very consistent and serious failures in the way it is dealt with.

For example, in the US, massive amounts of rape kits aren't tested, they are thrown into storage and forgotten about. You have charities formed to raise money to test them, but I believe they are piling up faster than charities can get them tested. Often in the ones that are tested they find the DNA of people (occasionally the same people) who are currently in prison for crimes they committed later that they wouldn't have been able to commit if they'd been convicted of their previous rape. It should not be up to charities to test rape kits.

DizzyChuggernaut said:
While I disagree with western societies with actual consequences for rapists being called "rape cultures",
The vast majority of rapists will not face consequences, however.
Heard a lot about untested rape kits, and heard a lot about reasons for it, but everything I heard about the reasons sincerely sounded like mud seen through greasy lens. In other words I couldn't really separate truth from PR talk in any amount (budgets, probabilities of conviction, time restraints, lack of personnel etc etc). For that reason I keep away from that subject even if it really peaks my interest.

As for convictions, outside murderers, very small percentage of offenders were convicted for their first offence and, to repeat myself, rape is just about hardest crime to prove beyond reasonable doubt.