Let's defend berated games in a series we like

[Raggedstar]

A few people already did Skyward Sword, so I might as well defend Jak 2.

I'll admit, looking at the entire series as it is now, Jak 2 is perhaps the weakest gameplay-wise (almost everything Jak 2 did, Jak 3 did better. Except the vehicles, because fuck them. The zoomers explode whenever a butterfly touches them, but at least they're workable and drive in a straight line)
I'll admit that the drastic tonal shift didn't do the game many favours.
I'll admit Haven City is one of the most boring sandbox overworlds I've seen.
I'll admit the difficulty spikes are bullshit and the lack of checkpoints is downright infuriating (it's also the only game in the series that has a water level, and it's terrible)
I'll admit I did somewhat miss the collecting, and what little collecting you do is pretty pointless and not worth the hassle.
I'll admit the gunplay in the game isn't as tight as Ratchet and Clank's (well, more the sequels. R&C1's wasn't great)
I'll admit that the story isn't great and there were boatloads of missed opportunities, character development squandered, and things that didn't make a lot of sense (though Jak 3 was the most blatant about it. Holy hell did they toss Keira into the bin)

BUT!!!

Despite it's change in tone, I still think it's a worthy sequel to the original Jak and Daxter that keeps a lot of what made it special.

-Levels connect to each other without meaningful loading times (while some do posses "airlocks" between them, the wait is brief and still feels like part of the same world). Only one level is completely disconnected. You can also travel with the dropship between the pumping station and dig/factory if you have the jetboard, which is very neat.

-Everyone says how super-serious the game is, but I found a lot of light-hearted moments (even from Mr. Growly-Pants Jak himself). Vin I think is one of my favourite of the new characters, and he's pretty cute. Daxter (no matter the game) is an acquired taste, though as someone who loves him, I think this is his best game. Since Dax didn't have to play tutorial-voice for long and there are other characters that can talk for him, he's a lot more toned down in gameplay which makes him a little less annoying to me.

-A major criticism is that the game is ugly, and while Haven City and a few of the levels are rather drab, Haven Forest and the mountain temple are gorgeous. The character animation is still top-knotch and hold up quite well despite Jak 2 being more than a decade old (and while the environments in the first game also look great, it still shows it's age).

-People talk about how it's all about shooting and vehicles, but there are a lot of good platforming areas. Some levels/missions even lack combat completely and all you do is platform or scoot around on your jetboard.

So in short, Jak 2 is flawed, but also not shit. I understand why it gets a lot of heat (and a lot of it's deserved), but there's a lot of things that work, even if it's not your cup of tea. It gets pretty damn good in parts.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

Apparently Wind Waker is a decisive entry in the Legend of Zelda canon, especially the HD remastering on the Wii U. I understand that people would have probably wanted a working version of Skyward Sword or an updated version of...I dunno, Twilight Princess or maybe even something new on the Wii U, especially in the first couple of years on the console being on the market. It wasn't anything new but I loved Wind Waker HD just as much as the original. I love the art style, I love how Ganon looks like water-colored Kevin Smith, I loved travelling the sea, I loved how each island had at least one thing that you could find, even if it's just sunken treasure. I liked how the HD version added in the magical sail and the magical Selfie-camera.

As for something a bit more controversial, Final Fantasy VIII isn't my favorite in the series but it's consistently in my top 3 (or 5) when it comes to the main numerical series. I've only just learned that the Steam version isn't very good but the original PSX version has really good music, it allows players to grind to Godhood if one is just that patient, the summon animations (though a bit long at times) look freaking awesome...I also kind of like the characters. None of them are inhuman but I still thought they were more likable over-all compared to the party of 6 in XIII. I even like them a bit more than a majority of the party in FFX but that's probably just me.

 

[RJ 17]

My major issue with BI is not plot-holes or anything like that, it's that the type of plot it is basically makes it impossible to complain about. Make a complaint and get responded to with "but here's my elaborate twisting of the multiple universe thing to make it make sense" and I just groan.

Still, I can't hate the game like its ardent offenders can, but it got its critical reception of greatest game evar alongside The Last of Us and GTA V so oh well.

Oh I'm not so upset about the game that I go out and type essays about why it's terrible. As I said: I just didn't like how everything in it was a bullet sponge. And as nifty as the concept of the multiverse theory is, the very fact they're working with the multiverse theory and specifically a person who has the power to open doors to any given universe means that you can quite literally make up plot holes and they become valid.

But I'm not going to pick at it, that game has come and gone. But now that I'm home from work I have the time to actually name one of the games that I enjoy that gets crapped all over. And that game is...

...well, coincidentally: Bioshock 2.

I find it a bit funny that the same people who praise BS:I's story as being brilliant while denouncing BS2's story fail to that BS:I has effectively the exact same plot as BS2 on a point-by-point basis. Personally I believe this was actually intentional to help underline the whole "constants and variables" deal in BS:I so on that note I do give BS:I some credit.

Both games feature:

1: A father-figure that has a daughter-figure taken away from them.

2: Said daughter-figure having something special about her that gives her god-like powers.

3: Said father-figure having a mark on his hand that labels him as public enemy #1.

4: A city ruled by a megalomaniac whose followers worship them with a fanatical, religious, cult-like zealotry.

5: Said ruler intending to use the power of the daughter-figure to wage war and conquer the surface world.

Sure, there's no epic "Would you kindly?" scene in BS2, but personally I've gotta say it's my favorite of the series.

 

[kissthebottle]

Someone already mentioned it, but I'll post about it anyway. You can't stop me.

Dragon Age 2

4. Inability to equip party members with different armor. Yes, I actually think that it is a good thing. Why? Because they are not your walking item bags that can also deal damage. They are CHARACTERS. And characters have preferences. You think Sten would actually wear a damn golden armor? Yeah right. Besides, I think when it comes to party members' equipment, I think everyone should go Shadowrun road, where every character you can hire for the job and your constant party members have their own preferences in equipment and you can't change it.

I totally back most of what you said, but this definitely sticks out. It's not something a lot of people mention in the DA universe and I totally agree with this.

I did like how in Inquisition that characters could even wear the same type of armor but it appears differently on each party member in their actual clothing style. I also love that they added the color change table because putting Dorian in plaidweave is probably one of the meanest things you can do to him. I think that was a huge improvement to that idea that started in DA 2 with everyone having their own armor prefrences.

There are a lot of games where sometimes I won't equip stronger/better armor on a character because it doesn't look like something the character would wear...kinda like trying to outfit Morrigan in frumpy mage robes.

 

[AgedGrunt]

FFXII is literally the same battle system as FFX. The gambits are just if-then-else statements that you would do yourself without any thought really like healing an ally that needs to be healed. All FFXII's battle system does is keep you out of constantly going through menus. To me, if you hate FFXII's battle system, you hate most of all previous FF battle systems.

Have to disagree completely. FFX was very much the traditional, instanced, fixed-in-place battle system that went by numbers. XII removed instanced battles and movement and range became critical factors. It was sort of like Secret of Mana, and the big criticism seemed to be how automated battles became once you set everything up properly. May be, but it still created some epic fights.

X's gimmick was party-swapping during battles, which for a while made strategic play important, but often made the game even easier than it was. On top of that was the sphere grid, which is more about progression, but still eventually made strategy irrelevant.

 

[Ultress]

Ace Attorney Miles Investigation- I love this game but it is not well liked in the fan base. The game have some of my favorite characters and some of the best soundtracks in the franchise. It may not be the best in the series but it definitely not as bad as people make it out to be.

People hate this game? Damn I'm with you it's awesome not as awesome as say Trials and Tribulations but still great. The writing for games past the original trilogy all fall flat in one way or another but this one handled it in the beast way possible. I'm still kind of sore about the lack of a localization of the sequel.

OT: Tales of Legendia, It's not a bad game at all. It makes some poor decisions but so did Symphonia and Abyss. The characters are fun and the story is no worse than the usual tales fare. The battle system works rather well and tries to shake it up in terms of playable characters by ditching the sword wielding main protagonist in favor of a fist-fighter along with the more trap based Jay and pot wielding Grune. Is it the best game in the seires,no but it's far from terrible and just had the bad luck of having to follow Symphonia,the FF7 of the series.

 

[lacktheknack]

People tend to pretend Myst Online doesn't exist, preferring to stick with the "normal five".

Well, that's BS, because Myst Online is the best of the series. Yeah, it's slow and ponderous. Yeah, it tosses you in the deep end. Yeah, the UI is a puzzle in and of itself. Yeah, its MMO environment does not make a lick of sense as a design choice. That's why it's so great. It's chock-full of cool gameplay experiments and innovative-yet-brutal puzzles, as well as a bunch of "lore twists" that are guaranteed to make any fan squee.

It's fantastic. And it's FREE. Go try it if you have any interest in adventure games.

 

[God'sFist]

I don't get why people dislike Devil may cry 2, Some of my favorite bosses came from it okay one favorite boss, but still I had allot of fun with it I now own a copy but for some reason if I try to play level seven the game freezes and I have to shut my Ps2 down but everything else is really fun. For the record my favorite boss is the giant monster thing that comes out of a building and you have to fight the body and head separately.

 

[ZiggyE]

I'll admit the difficulty spikes are bullshit and the lack of checkpoints is downright infuriating (it's also the only game in the series that has a water level, and it's terrible)

The seal piece in the water slums. Oh my god.

No, but I really liked Jak II as well. I wasn't aware that it was disliked by most people.

 

[Wasted]

Final Fantasy X-2 has the best combat system out of any Final Fantasy and compared to X doesn't bore me to tears with it's terrible linearity and story. Don't get me wrong, X-2's story was awful but I enjoyed it way more because it did not take itself so seriously.

Final Fantasy XII was a great return to more "open world" structure with a ton of exploration and side quests. It is my second favorite Final Fantasy behind IX.

 

[Timeless Lavender]

People hate this game? Damn I'm with you it's awesome not as awesome as say Trials and Tribulations but still great. The writing for games past the original trilogy all fall flat in one way or another but this one handled it in the beast way possible. I'm still kind of sore about the lack of a localization of the sequel.

Trust me, depending where you go, the fanbase hated it along with Apollo justice and Justice for All like they are the anti-christ
( obviously investigation got the most heat but people really hated Apollo tho).


I do not believe in ranking favorites because I am the type of person who would gobble at anything that have the Ace Attorney name on it and love all of them like my children.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

FFXII is literally the same battle system as FFX. The gambits are just if-then-else statements that you would do yourself without any thought really like healing an ally that needs to be healed. All FFXII's battle system does is keep you out of constantly going through menus. To me, if you hate FFXII's battle system, you hate most of all previous FF battle systems.

Have to disagree completely. FFX was very much the traditional, instanced, fixed-in-place battle system that went by numbers. XII removed instanced battles and movement and range became critical factors. It was sort of like Secret of Mana, and the big criticism seemed to be how automated battles became once you set everything up properly. May be, but it still created some epic fights.

X's gimmick was party-swapping during battles, which for a while made strategic play important, but often made the game even easier than it was. On top of that was the sphere grid, which is more about progression, but still eventually made strategy irrelevant.

If you put gambits in FFX, it will play itself as well. You can also play FFXII just like FFX if you want to but then the game would take forever to play. FFXII just automates all the stuff you'd do without even thinking much. None of the FFs are very strategic at all demonstrated by the fact that a few if-then-else statements is all you need for it play itself. Most JRPGs like FF were always in some weird middle ground where they wanted to be both fast-paced and strategic and yet were neither. They should've chosen to really utilize a turn-based system and become really strategic or just went the action route (which FF is very slowly FINALLY getting to).

 

[Raggedstar]

I'll admit the difficulty spikes are bullshit and the lack of checkpoints is downright infuriating (it's also the only game in the series that has a water level, and it's terrible)

The seal piece in the water slums. Oh my god.

No, but I really liked Jak II as well. I wasn't aware that it was disliked by most people.

Actually, that wasn't the water level I was talking about (though it is a notoriously difficult mission). It's actually not too bad when you find your route and spam the blaster with a jumping roundhouse kick. As long as you keep your footing, you'll be near untouchable. Great strategy for a lot of missions (most notably the prison break), even if it is a little cheap. The water mission I was talking about was with the titan suit, hobbling in the underport. I would rather play the water slums with 1 HP than THAT mission.

And ya, I didn't think it was THAT hated until a few months ago. It was well received on release and most of my friends at worst thought it was ok or their least favourite of the trilogy. I was on a Youtube video where the creator said he didn't like Jak 2 in passing, and the comments section was FLOODED in people saying Jak 2 was irredeemable shit (as in more people were talking about how awful Jak 2 was than talking about the actual unrelated content of the video). I knew the game was divisive, but not THAT much.

 

[Mikejames]

As for myself: Silent Hill 4: The Room is a good game.

Now don't get me wrong, it's not amazing or anything, and certainly not Silent Hill 2, Silent Hill 3 or Shattered Memories levels of good. The hate for escorts, ghosts restricting exploration and the seemingly lazy level design (yet another train level, huh?) are all well earned.

The stuck-in-your-apartment concept is actually well done, my favourite aspect of it being the ability to go into the kitchen and Henry just says that he's not hungry, but feels like some magic is doing it to him. It all adds to this wonderful playful yet cruel tone which fits into the game's primary antagonist Crazy Mummy Issues Boy.

Silent Hill 4 had plenty of issues in execution, but I did love the premise of being trapped in Henry's solemnly quiet apartment. The claustrophobic feeling of being able to see people outside your windows and door, while knowing that there's nothing you can do to make them see or hear you, was a great concept to play around with.

Dragon Age 2.

I liked the idea of DA 2 being, at the core of it, a story about a dysfunctional and familial group of friends who ultimately may disagree with or even despise some of the things others in the group may do, but at the end of the day they do have each others' backs when it counts. It's like, "I may not agree with what you do, but I still respect you, and we have this weird bond" (rivalmancing is so fun). I think while the gameplay suffered a lot, the story still had a lot of heart and I generally will let gameplay slide on the side of mediocrity if it still tells me a damn good story.

For all that DA2 felt rushed on, I still really enjoyed the group dynamic that it had, and how every character's story arc reflected an aspect of the main conflict. Simple details like the party banter about Varric and Aveline's paternal outlook for characters like Merrill and Bethany were great, and the different routes that characters could take without abruptly leaving was a nice addition. In some ways, it made the group feel a bit more personal than the other two games did for me.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Like if I did have to pick a "worst" Zelda game (aside from those CD-i abominations), I would say Twilight Princess. It's a good game, it's just not a very good Zelda game, in my opinion.

I agree, Twilight Princess was good, but there are a LOT of things about it that just drove me crazy ("What is the point of this item outside of this dungeon?!" is not something I should be asking at all, let alone 3 times in a Zelda title).

Speaking of Zelda, I'm sticking up for Zelda 2 here. It's hard as hell, unforgiving as hell, some of the main path branches are just bonkers obscure ("Have fun getting ass raped by the Palace 4 boss if you didn't save the kid and learn Reflect in the previous town, asshole!", "Oh, you didn't find every magic container? Guess you can't beat the game then!")

But it's also one of the few Zelda games that really forces you to play skillfully, both in platforming, magic management, and with swordplay.

None of the FFs are very strategic at all demonstrated by the fact that a few if-then-else statements is all you need for it play itself. Most JRPGs like FF were always in some weird middle ground where they wanted to be both fast-paced and strategic and yet were neither.

Actually, FF5 is very good about maintaining the elements of mechanical strategy; mainly thanks to the Job system and the much improved enemy encounters. (FF6 almost accomplishes this, but falls on its face thanks to certain characters just being cheesy if not straight up gamebreaking from start to finish *cough*Sabin, Gau, Setzer*cough*)

Most of the bosses in FF5 (and some special encounters) have hidden or obscured weaknesses in their patterns, or require a bit of thought to defeat. While there are certainly broken combos, (X-Fight + Dual Wield crushes most of the game's difficulty), but with smart play you never have to bust them out or even really grind to beat the main game.

 

[Kyrian007]

Glad to see some mentions of Skyward Sword. One complaint was "Arrgghh, controls" which I chalk up to lazy ham-fistedness and/or inability to properly set up their Wii (find the channel with the best signal and watch out for those reflective surfaces folks.) I found the movements required simple to learn, easy enough to perform to play for hours without tiring or cramping or whatever (unless someone is a complete load considering how out of shape I am,) and functioning perfectly (I'm not such a crybaby that I can admit when Link got hit or killed it was my fault not "Arrggghh, WIIIIMMMOOTEEEEE!") Another complaint was "Fi was annoying." Yeah, she was. So was Midna, So was Navi... frankly an annoying sidekick just isn't a dealbreaker.

I also saw a mention of FFVIII. I approve as well. It was really just timing for me. I was still a college freshman when FFVII came out. I was still enough of a kid to have the kind of free time it take to beat a FF game like 1 - 7. By the time I got 8... I had acquired enough adult responsibilities I could no longer game like a kid has the freedom to. And so despite the angsty teenagers anime trope storyline I enjoyed FFVIII because right when I needed the franchise to severely lessen the amount of grind necessary for completion of a game, Square chose to remove 75% of the grind for 8.

But most of the games mentioned so far have pretty big cheering sections. I haven't really seen anyone go out on a limb.

I mean waaaayyyyy out on a limb.

So, Metroid Other M wasn't that bad.

Don't get me wrong, it's the worst of the series. I won't disagree there. But that's the Metroid series. The other games are ALL pretty awesome. Saying OM is the worst isn't really much of an insult. I really only found that it's big problems were weak voice acting and story points that didn't really go anywhere (the "deleter" sidestory could have been a neat "investigation" sub-plot but instead went nowhere.) Gameplay wise it was a perfectly functional (even overly simple) retro metroidvania gameplay that worked well and switched to first-person quickly and easily for added depth. Yeah, the story and cutscenes were far too overlong. That being said, I like the Metal Gear series... I don't have a leg to stand on if I really tried to say that the long cutscenes were a dealbreaker. And the other complaints were the cries of "they got Samus totally wrong." Which I can't agree with. Samus was a fairly blank slate up until that point. What they really mean is "that's not the way I imagined Samus should be." But since the people that make that complaint won't admit it, I can't agree with them. I'll agree that their characterization of Samus wasn't particularly good, but the whole story of OM wasn't really written well so I wasn't expecting that much. And the big one "Samus would never wait for orders to use equipment just because some man told her to." Well A: the Varia suit thing didn't bother me. If the heat was really a dangerous area for her to go through without the Varia suit, they didn't really translate that through gameplay. Anyone who didn't breeze through that part of the game without problems may need to turn in their gamer card for sheer ham-fistedness. And B, the whole "orders" thing was just an attempt to get away from the "de-powering equipment loss" bog-standard "tripped and fell and broke all my stuff" scenario that they used in nearly all other Metroid games. It wasn't really a good de-powering storypoint... but at least they tried something different.

So there. I'll defend Other M. One of the games I see more hatred for than almost any other. And I really don't think it deserves actual scorn. I think it's just "meh" at worst.

 

[aozgolo]

Thief: Deadly Shadows

I admit my exposure to the Thief series prior to playing Deadly Shadows was a simple demo of a level from Thief II but I really enjoyed Deadly Shadows when I first played it on XBOX. It stands out well on it's own as a very fun stealth game, and I really enjoyed the level design and open-endedness it gave you in deciding how to complete each mission. I never had the exposure to the previous entries in the series to hold against the game, but I rather enjoyed it and liked the freeform way you could approach going about your tasks.


King's Quest VII

Many fans of the series dislike this departure from the classic Sierra visual style and interface, but I really enjoyed it. The animation quality of the game has suffered a bit due to it's age but I really enjoyed the Disney style take on the series and found each chapter outside of the first (which has some annoyingly complicated quests) to be very enjoyable with very memorable characters. I've played most of the King's Quest games (except IV) and while VII isn't my favorite in the series (which is probably 5 to be honest) I think it's worthy of it's series mantle.

 

[MASTACHIEFPWN]

I'm going to try to have a mature discussion about what Mass Effect 3 did right, which wasn't all that much, but it did have some admirable elements to it.

The game's over-arching motif of hopelessness was done rather well in my opinion. For me, at least, it became not about "Not being able to save everyone" which is what the game fronts at the surface- But rather saving anyone. The idea that the Reapers could be stopped was little more than fuel to keep on fighting, not an actually obtainable goal. Consider the opening, the Turian section, and the Asari section of the campaign- the reapers devastate everything within a matter of minutes on Earth and on Thessia, and the same could presumably be said about Palaven. Three of the four council race home planets are decimated right before the player's eyes- and all of the fighting you do on them amounts to nothing. Shepard is very good at eliminating threats that have a single head to be taken out, but he's worthless when it comes to cutting off a million. The tone of the game, along with subtle hints of Shepard's declining sanity work well with this.

I also appreciate how the Citadel was utilized (Minus the Cerberus attack on it.- FYI, I think most all of the Cerberus sub-story was shit.) A shining beacon amidst the chaos, slowly filling with helpless refugees and growing challenges to its apathy towards the ensuing genocide ten thousand light-years away. The contrast between what you are presented with in the reaper related missions and what goes on in what is the games only safe-haven is done pretty well in my opinion.

The (Largely pointless) choice between sparing the Geth or the Quarians was a rather powerful moment, at least in my first playthrough of the game, where I imported and imperfect character. I wasn't able to pick the "Everybody wins!" options where you stop the genocide, but I was left to decide who gets to survive a bout of ethnic cleansing. The game had convinced me that neither side was more deserving of survival than the other. This made a rather interesting moment of grey morality to tug at players' heartstrings. After I made my decision, I actually stopped playing for about a day, not because it was moving- but because I had never had to make that hard of decision in a game like Mass Effect before. It was powerful, and if no "Rally the Fleet" option was present, even for "perfect" characters, I would have a lot more respect towards this game.

And yes, the entirety of the Finale Ultimo (Starting with the investigation of Haven) was complete irredeemable shit. I think, through confirmation bias, that just having an ending where the Reapers just win would have been better than what we got, provided they got rid of the fucking star kid- only because it is less wishy washy. I know that If that would have been the ending without me knowing about the piss-poor endings we got still would have pissed me off.

Spoiler: Lest we forget

 

[Ambient_Malice]

Battlefield 4:
Tight, well paced FPS with incredible score and effective ending.

CoD Ghosts:
The game is far fetched in places, but it is a genuinely good game with incredible set pieces, a good villain, and some beautiful visual composition.

Resident Evil 6:
Despite its bloat, fetch quests, and level design problems, RE6 is a well written, fast and visceral third person shooter.

 

[Jonbodhi]

I'll join the chorus defending Dragon Age 2. It deserves all the knocks it get about its waves of enemies, and especially, the cut-and-paste environments. It's rather insulting that a AAA game thought they could get away with that.

But it's so much more fun actually PLAYING the game than Origins, where i never got completely used to the combat. I agree with others who said it would have been smarter for EA to manage expectations (and maybe lower the price) before release. I liked it enough to buy several of the DLC and liked them too.

And since no ones's said it yet: Arkham Origins. I know some people encountered serious glitches that fueled lots of discontent, but my game was pretty bug-free, and I thought there was a lot of good in that game, as was discussed on the Arkham: Origins thread.