Literature - Ressurected (Fair warning of spoilers)

[Labyrinth]

gotta train yourself away from bite-sized wisdom

Slogging through Hume and Machiavelli proves that I can. Christ they're slow.

 

[ix_tab]

My all time favourite book is 'Black Oxen' by Elizabeth Knox, a New Zealand author. It's freaking amazing. I have a real thing for magical realism, and Black Oxen is magical realism at it's best. Her characters are rich, and fully realised, and she has intricate, awesome, original plot.

I am also the world's biggest fan of Michael Moorcock. All of that man's writing, my god.

 

[Anachronism]

I haven't seen any references to Mary Shelley yet. I was completely blown away by the book Frankenstein when I read it in high school. The creature is totally portrayed falsely in modern media and cinema. It does an incredible job at portraying how a man's obsession can be his downfall and that just because you have the abliity to create something doesn't mean you should. For me it reflected the fate and nature of humanity as a whole.

I'd be inclined to disagree. While I do find the whole "playing God" angle very interesting, and the warning that there's a line that Man was not meant to cross, I didn't particularly enjoy the book. I found it too slow, for one thing; it got dull very quickly. The Creature, while, again, a really good idea to show what can happen to someone when they mess with forces beyond their control, was far too verbose, and his extended dialogues didn't really get the story anywhere.

Sticking with Gothic fiction, however, I absolutely loved Dracula. I just really liked the way that the story's told: each chapter is a letter, or a diary entry from one of the characters, which, for me at least, helped make the story feel much more immediate than it might have done otherwise. Plus, it gave a lot of different perspectives on what was happening, so you get differing opinions on Dracula himself, and what the characters are doing. It's just a pity the ending was so anti-climactic.

 

[pigeon_of_doom]

Never really been able to get into gothic novels. Tried Frankenstein, thought it was ok, but preferred Northanger Abbey which is a much more mundane satire of gothic novels. Well, it only satirised the bestsellers of the time, which were viewed as trashy entertainment for woman to pass the time between housework and squeezing out another member of the family. And yes, you just heard a man confess his liking for a Jane Austen book.

The Road was brilliant. I'm not interested in the film, as I doubt it can capture the bleak, raw feel of the novel. Also, the simple dialogue will be quite difficult to implement effectively into a film. The book would just lose too much without McCarthy's descriptive language.

Everyone knows (and most people adore) George Orwell's 1984 or Animal Farm, but has anyone else read a book of his called Down and Out in Paris and London?

It's the favourite Orwell novel of a couple of people I know. It's fairly high up my reading list, it's always sounded like a very interesting book. I prefer the sound of Homage to Catalonia though.

Slogging through Hume and Machiavelli proves that I can. Christ they're slow.

Can't comment on Machiavelli, but what's the problem with Hume? Haven't read anything by him for ages. He did seem to go on a bit, but I always thought he was a very good writer. I read him before Orwell, McCarthy and Wittgenstein made me appreciate clarity and brevity much more though.

I always feel I'm missing out on Russian literature. I've just never been able to get into it for some reason. Read through Crime and Punishment, but I approached it in the completely wrong way and didn't get very much out of it.




I'll actually contribute some in-depth discussion to this thread at some point.

 

[Labyrinth]

Can't comment on Machiavelli, but what's the problem with Hume? Haven't read anything by him for ages. He did seem to go on a bit, but I always thought he was a very good writer. I read him before Orwell, McCarthy and Wittgenstein made me appreciate clarity and brevity much more though.

Oh, he's good, but what I'm currently reading (An Enquiry Concerning the Principles of Morals) tends to be very long winded and at times quite difficult to slog through.

 

[TheColdHeart]

I picked up The Road after my housemate said "this book is great, you will love it". And it was once of the most compelling reads I have had for a long time. I think I read 60% of it in the first sitting. The style of writing and the layout of the book gave it a certain effect. Without spoiling the ending it is definately read differently depending on your levels of optimism and hopes for the child.

I have seen the trailer for the film and I hope the adaptation is true to the book and they dont go adding additional elements to the story.

Out of curiosity I got Pride and Prejudice and Zombies this week. Only read 4 chapters but I can see it being...unique.

 

[Labyrinth]

Spoiler: Holocaunversation

This piece by calivinguy [http://calivinguy.deviantart.com/] is something I found while browsing the Daily Deviation section of Deviantart. I figured I'd share.

"All right," Pete began, while giving John a wily smile. "Everyone remove your clothes and go into the shower."
The look on the faces of all the Jews, men and women caused John to shudder. But he stood by Pete and barked, "Take it off now!"
The men and women, most in their late teenage years but some as old as forty slowly removed their clothes. Pete nodded, which John took as the sign to give them some coaxing. With the butt of the rifle, the two Nazi soldiers served them a few swift smacks to their sides, chests, stomachs and twice to the head to two younger boys swearing in Polish. Finally, the men and women were stripped. John and Pete led them into the shower area and shoved them in, with a few more whacks to bare butts. They closed the shower door, sealing the room off and stood outside the now locked door.
"Hey, Pete," John turned to him and began. "I heard some of the other soldiers trying to figure out this theological question."
"Yeah?" Pete replied, curious.
"And the guys thought maybe you could answer it."
"Why me?"
"Well, Pete, we all know that you're the smartest when it comes to theology, and you've been personally praised by the Kaiser himself, so we thought maybe you could answer it."
"Sure, John," Pete replied, blushing a bit. "Go ahead."
John cleared his throat and ignored the coughing inside the shower area.
"Could God ever create a rock that was too large for even HE to lift?"
The coughing turned to screaming as the gas was released and made apparent by its dark yellow color. The door was fairly heavy and masked the sound as Pete considered and answered the question.
"Well, I read a theologian once who said that God can't actually do everything."
"Oh? But I thought he cou-"
"According to this guy, God can't do anything against His own nature. For instance, He can't sin, because He's holy and justified in everything He does. He can't create that rock because He's omnipotent and has absolute power."
"Aren't those the same thing? Isn't the ability to DO everything the same as absolute power?"
Louder banging as several people knocked against the locked door. Some willingly but many because they were closest to it and were slammed against it again and again. A few younger women would be dead already from the brutality, spared the suffocation by the gas.
"I don't... think so. I think it's like this: God has the power to defeat any enemy and has absolute power. He can not, however do anything that would compromise His character traits. He never changes."
"But if God can't change or go against his nature, doesn't that defeat free will?"
Again, Peter took this moment to contemplate. John was throwing difficult questions at him and to add to that, those putrid Jews would not stop screaming and banging on the walls and door. He clutched his head to concentrate.
"If you want to continue this later, when we're eating dinner, we can."
"No, no. I'm coming to the answer."
"You are?"
John's wide eyes pleased Peter greatly. He felt every inch of his six feet as he looked down to John's awaiting blue eyes.
"It's simple. Too simple."
"What is?"
Peter's lips curled into a smile. "God doesn't have free will."
"God doesn't... what!"
"God is forced by His own design to make decisions based solely on who He is."
"He designed himself to be unchangeable?"
"Yes."
The noise died down. After a pause, John finally responded, "So when the snake told Adam and Eve they could know right from wrong and be like God, was he lying?"
"Hmm," Peter mumbled before dropping back to think.
After a few moments, he turned to John. "Okay, I think Satan partially lied. He is the Father of Lies, right?"
"Right."
"God does know right from wrong because He is the Right and the absence of Him is wrong, okay?"
"Okay."
"So without free will to choose to go against God, they wouldn't have known wrong. And without wrong, they wouldn't have known that they were doing right."
"Then wrong and evil is the absence of God?"
"Augustine calls evil the 'privation of good', or any action done without and against God. Since God can not do anything against Himself, He can not be evil. But He knows that evil is the absence of Himself. In that sense, God is all knowing and all powerful but can not do everything. He can not do anything that is without Himself."
"Hmm. So God has no free will and can not do evil."
"Correct."
"Then how did Jesus take the evil of the world, if He's God?"
At this, Peter fell back to thinking. A large alarm sounded and the two soldiers turned to the door. Through the window, they could see the door opening on the other side. It was time to remove the bodies.
Peter smiled at John and announced, "I'll take ten bodies for examination. You can help with clean up."
John opened the door and replied, "You did it yesterday. It's my turn."
"Bull. All right, 'Rocks, paper, dagger'?"
After the count of three, John held his hand vertical palm out and Peter smirked with his two fingers stretched out, sharp as the German dagger at his side. John muttered an obscenity and the two entered the death chamber which had at one time been a shower.

I think this is a great short piece of writing. We find it so easy to dismiss the Nazi soldiers as evil and inhuman, but something like this drives home the idea that even people who are very human are capable of well, locking a bunch of other humans in a once-was shower block and gassing them while talking about god. Profoundly moving.

 

[quiet_samurai]

I haven't seen any references to Mary Shelley yet. I was completely blown away by the book Frankenstein when I read it in high school. The creature is totally portrayed falsely in modern media and cinema. It does an incredible job at portraying how a man's obsession can be his downfall and that just because you have the abliity to create something doesn't mean you should. For me it reflected the fate and nature of humanity as a whole.

I'd be inclined to disagree. While I do find the whole "playing God" angle very interesting, and the warning that there's a line that Man was not meant to cross, I didn't particularly enjoy the book. I found it too slow, for one thing; it got dull very quickly. The Creature, while, again, a really good idea to show what can happen to someone when they mess with forces beyond their control, was far too verbose, and his extended dialogues didn't really get the story anywhere.

Sticking with Gothic fiction, however, I absolutely loved Dracula. I just really liked the way that the story's told: each chapter is a letter, or a diary entry from one of the characters, which, for me at least, helped make the story feel much more immediate than it might have done otherwise. Plus, it gave a lot of different perspectives on what was happening, so you get differing opinions on Dracula himself, and what the characters are doing. It's just a pity the ending was so anti-climactic.

Yeah Dracula was a good book, he is also falsely portrayed in modern media and cinema. But it was more of a true horror story compared to Frankenstein, which was not just meant to be taken aat face value. Mary Shelly's book just had a more deeper meaning to it then Dracula did. And yes the ending was anti-climactic, but at least the movie has Neo in it!!!

 

[ygetoff]

To be honest I don't enjoy his Moist von Lipwig books quite so much as the older Discworld ones. It feels like that groove's become a little worn. Branching out from Discworld seems to be his current mission and the result in Nation is spectacular, as with the Diggers and Wings pair. Diggers in particular is great because it's Plato's Cave on so many levels. A pity he has Alzheimer's really.

I really need to get round to reading Nation; I've heard nothing but good things about it. It does really suck that he has Alzheimer's, though. He seems alright at the moment, and he even did a TV series about the disease, but it's only a matter of time, I guess. I just hope he manages to write a few more books before the unthinkable happens.

In other news, what's the general opinion on the sixth Hitchhiker's Guide book? I, for one, am a die-hard fan of the others, but I'm sceptical about the sixth one, to say the least. Frankly, I think they should just leave well enough alone; I know a lot of people didn't particularly like Mostly Harmless, but I thought it was the perfect way to end the series. My problems with the fact that they're making a sixth one are that I don't see how they'll continue the story, and the fact that Eoin Colfer's writing it. Don't get me wrong, he's a very good writer in his own right, but he's just not Douglas Adams.

Nobody is Douglas Adams. If you want to read some of his other stuff, I recommend The Salmon of Doubt, which is a collection of some of his various random works, magazine articles, the like. HOWEVER, it also contains the first few chapters of his unfinished Dirk Gently novel. It's good. Read it.

 

[dontworryaboutit]

Good thread; I can see this lasting quite a while. I really need to get round to reading Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?, not that that has anything to do with anything.

I just finished that book the other day. I highly recommend it. I'm now reading through a novel called A Riotous Assembly which is hilarious as long as you don't take it seriously. If you take it seriously it's one of the most offensive and racist things ever written.

Also, graphic novels.

 

[Labyrinth]

Also, graphic novels.

I've never actually read any. Considered it once or twice.

Re-reading Catch 22 is one hell of a ride. As a book it is hysterically funny, gut-wrenching, emotive, political, psychological, scathing, confusing and wonderful with one of the most enigmatic endings I've ever read.

Enormously critical of war and violence, I recommend it to everyone, though be warned that you'll need to pay attention to what you're reading as in places it cuts between what's happening and flash backs (re-occuring ones, you'll get it later) with just a line break, if that.

 

[dontworryaboutit]

Also, graphic novels.

I've never actually read any. Considered it once or twice.

Re-reading Catch 22 is one hell of a ride. As a book it is hysterically funny, gut-wrenching, emotive, political, psychological, scathing, confusing and wonderful with one of the most enigmatic endings I've ever read.

Enormously critical of war and violence, I recommend it to everyone, though be warned that you'll need to pay attention to what you're reading as in places it cuts between what's happening and flash backs (re-occuring ones, you'll get it later) with just a line break, if that.

A couple of my friends and I are responsible for a resurrection of nerd culture in our high school. One of them actually wrote about Watchmen on the AP Lit exam, which frankly is perfectly reasonable. If you don't consider something that made New York Times Top 100 list and won a Hugo award literature then you're doing it wrong.

 

[dontworryaboutit]

I have no idea what just happened.

And the soul-crushing shame of my failure is merely compounded by my sheer inability to locate a delete button.

 

[Alex_P]

I have no idea what just happened.

And the soul-crushing shame of my failure is merely compounded by my sheer inability to locate a delete button.

There is no delete button. Well, not on your interface; there is a delete button on my interface. I went ahead and fixed it for you.

Also, I could swear I wrote a post about Therefore Repent! and it just vanished... Umm, maybe we'll find it later.

-- Alex

 

[Labyrinth]

I read something a while back which was just bad. Have a rant!

I hate Darren Shan. I absolutely loathe it, and as such, this post is going to be an exercise in expelling pent-up bile from my otherwise sweet and pristine system.

Ahem.

Darren Shan is a series of books based around the story of an alternate universe where this kid becomes a half-vampire, then a vampire. Insert facepalming cliche right here. He goes on a variety of adventures in this alternate universe, killing things, very pointedly not human things, and saving the world from a horrible apocalyptic fate possibly involving dragons. Well hey, they just had to ruin more of my favourite fantasy creatures now didn't they.

The prose itself is near-juvenile in nature. Simple, with glaring oversights. Additionally, the plot twists are so forewarned it's like someone telling you they're going to smack your house with a sledgehammer three days before they actually do, giving you plenty of time to inform the police and get a bunch of friends with weapons over.

All in all, if you want some light literature which takes you gently by the hand and leads you through an all too familiar series of passageways, shitting with every third step for you to tread on, feel free to read Darren Shan. Otherwise, I'd recommend against it. Not so much fun for people who actually enjoy reading.

 

[Anachronism]

Also, graphic novels.

I've never actually read any. Considered it once or twice.

In that case, I'd strongly recommend V for Vendetta. A lot of people will say Watchmen, but I actually prefered V, mainly because I thought the story was much more interesting and believable. Also, V himself is just such a brilliant character it's hard not to like him; he's better than any of the characters in Watchmen.

Oh, and the graphic novel is better than the film, unsurprisingly.

 

[Alex_P]

Also, graphic novels.

I've never actually read any. Considered it once or twice.

Try Therefore Repent! -- it's good, the subject matter is unusual and represents a rather wide departure from the typical comic-book stuff, and digital copies are free [http://nomediakings.org/press/sword_of_my_mouth_1_out_soon.html]. All in all it should take about as much time to read as a short story.

We3 is another one I recommend strongly. It's kinda like one of those "incredible journey" things, but with cyborg animal soldiers. I think it's a stand-out example of the medium specifically because the story's very visual rather than dialogue-oriented.

-- Alex

 

[H.R.Shovenstuff]

Everyone should read The Road by cormac macarthy

 

[ThaBenMan]

We3 is another one I recommend strongly. It's kinda like one of those "incredible journey" things, but with cyborg animal soldiers. I think it's a stand-out example of the medium specifically because the story's very visual rather than dialogue-oriented.

-- Alex

We3 is awesome, love it. And it's great for being short, too (just 1 volume).

If you're looking for some longer reads (and have the cash to burn), I'd recommend a couple multi-volume series' -

Y: The Last Man - A mysterious plague kills every male mammal on Earth, except for a wisecracking English major named Yorick and his pet monkey. They travel the world with a kickass government agent and a brilliant biologist to find the source of the plague and perhaps a way to restore the male population. But be prepared for cliffhangers and the desire to buy all 10 volumes at once.

Fables - All of the characters populating fairy tales and folk stories have been driven from their magical homelands by The Adversary, forced to live in modern day New York city (and a farm upstate, for the more inhuman ones unable to appear as normal people). Snow White serves as administrator of the Fable government, and The Big Bad Wolf is their sheriff and security officer. I've only read the first volume, but I can already see this becoming a big investment of my time and money (this one's 12 volumes, I believe).

Sorry if I inadvertently turned this into a "graphic novel" discussion, but I would consider these series to be as substantial as any work of literature.