That is SO not the same thing! An unborn child in the stages that abortion is normally put to use is strictly speaking nothing more than a glorified parasite! We're talking about a fully fledged mammals here! That's animal cruelty! oh, and inhumane as well. Damn, I'd really hope they'd make people take certificates to have kids already.ShakyFt Slasher said:
Man kills newborn daughter because he couldn't afford to keep her
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Abortion is quite different, in that it doesn't involve dropping a cinder-block on a newborns head.Markgraf said:
Also, a great many people frown on abortion, I'm not one of them, but there are many people that do.
Actually, condoms are 98% effective when used correctly every time without fail. The real world effectiveness of condoms is closer to around 82%. This is why people should be advised to use redundant contraception, it helps close these gaps.[footnote]http://www.plannedparenthood.org/[/footnote]anima110 said:
Firstly...why no condom/birth control?
secondly why no abortion?
thirdly why not set up for adoption?
I hate to say it but this displays a stereotype of foolish Americans (I'm not saying Americans are the only ones (nor are they all dim/stupid/thick etc.).Messed up stuff happens in England and other countries too, but that's is the stereotype Americans have successfully built up for themselves)
secondly why no abortion?
thirdly why not set up for adoption?
I hate to say it but this displays a stereotype of foolish Americans (I'm not saying Americans are the only ones (nor are they all dim/stupid/thick etc.).Messed up stuff happens in England and other countries too, but that's is the stereotype Americans have successfully built up for themselves)
Given the motivation for the homicide was inability to afford another child, and the woman gave birth in a parked car, they may not have had consistent access to family planning services. You don't just go to your GP (chances are they don't have one) and get an abortion from the NHS either, they start at around $400.Rule Britannia said:
A discussion about tax payer funded abortions and contraception seems beyond the Escapist though, so most have resorted to name calling at them over the internet.
Most places have baby Moses laws to prevent this. Did he not think about that or was he that desperate and selfish?
It's no more a glorified parasite than a born baby. Born babies can't exactly live on their own.gizmo2300 said:
(thus we come to the core of the abortion debate[whether or not a fetus should be considered living], but since this isn't an abortion thread, let us discuss this another time)
You see, mammalian development is a tricky thing. I've studied it, although I am no expert in it. During the very early stages of Mammalian development, the embryo consists of undifferentiated stem cells. They are called stem cells because from these cells, other more differentiated cells may form (this involves DNA methylation, super coiling, uncoiling and other methods of gene switching and regulation). But there is no dispute that at the very early stages of mammalian development, the embryo consists of nothing more than a couple of hundred undifferentiated stem cells. These stem cells eventually differentiate into more complex tissue layers (germ line, mesenchymal, what have you), but during the early stages they haven't yet.
So killing or destroying an embryo is not the same thing as killing a person. Let me ask you this: if you smash an acorn seed, have you killed an acorn tree? No? Of course not. Same thing with an embryo - if you destroy an embryo, you are merely destroying a microscopically small undifferentiated ball of cells. These cells might have BECOME a human, but are not a human yet. You can't really point at a microscopic ball of undifferentiated cells and say 'That's a human!', because it's not. It's very clearly not. Anyone who has ever seen an embryo under a microscope, like I have during prac courses, can't actually truthfully call it a person, because it so clearly not a person - no brain, no nerves, no organs, no limbs, no skin.... it's about as "human" as a collection of skin flakes. Sure, it might have more potential to develop INTO a human, but at the embryo stage it is no more self-aware, cognizant or capable of feeling than a cell culture. Yet I don't hear anyone complain when I kill and grind up literally millions of HeLa Cells and extract the RNA for use in experiments. People quite clearly recognize that a cell culture is just a bunch of cells. Well, an embryo during early stage development is also just a mass of cells.
Same thing with very early stage foetuses. They don't yet have brains. Brain development does not begin until quite some time after conception. I don't have the exact figures of when brain development begins - I'm not a developmental biologist, just a lowly molecular guy, and it is different for each foetus, but it doesn't happen right away, and the foetus's brain takes a while to fully form. That's science. Anyone even REMOTELY educated in biology cannot disagree with those facts. Brain development does NOT begin at conception and foetuses sometimes do not have brains until quite a bit further on in the development process.
However.... at some stage before birth the brain has mostly formed. We know this because premature babies with mostly functioning brains have been born - my brother was one of them. I know for certain that a week before full term.... most foetuses have mostly or fully formed brains. I can't say for certain whether or not they are fully developed, but I'd wager that they probably are. Shouldn't we err on the side of caution in these cases? If the brain has formed.... aren't they people? I feel very, very, very, VERY uncomfortable with destroying a human brain, any human brain. The destruction of a brain is, in my opinion, the same thing as killing a human. What makes us human are our cognitive abilities - it's what separates us from the animals, it's what gives human life meaning. If late term foetuses have mostly or fully formed brains.... aren't they human? Aren't they?
I'll consent to late-term abortions in the case of rape, incest or if the mother's life is threatened. But for any other reason..... I don't know. A brain is a brain whether it is in the womb or outside the womb.
Again, I'm not a developmental biologist. I went into the molecular/cellular side of things because I find it just as interesting and less messy. So I can't provide a definite time limit on when abortion switches from being gravy beans to being not-gravy-beans (infanticide or manslaughter). Development is a complex, messy affair and different cases develop differently. We don't all begin to form brains at exactly the same time (although there is a general time frame at which brain development begins).
I would say... and this is just going by the seat of my pants here.... that abortion or embryo destruction at anytime before 2-3 months is absolutely fine. After that..... I think we should, if it's possible, scan the foetus to determine how much brain/neural tissue has formed, to decide if it's okay to abort or not. But if the foetus is one or two months away from delivery, if it does not threaten the mother's life and if it does not have significant genetic or developmental abnormalities that preclude a worthwhile or long term life.... then I say we should call it a human (albeit a human-in-the-womb) and prevent abortion.
I feel uncomfortable at conferring personhood on a being just because it emerges from a vagina. I confer personhood when the brain mostly (or fully) forms, no sooner, no later than that.
So killing or destroying an embryo is not the same thing as killing a person. Let me ask you this: if you smash an acorn seed, have you killed an acorn tree? No? Of course not. Same thing with an embryo - if you destroy an embryo, you are merely destroying a microscopically small undifferentiated ball of cells. These cells might have BECOME a human, but are not a human yet. You can't really point at a microscopic ball of undifferentiated cells and say 'That's a human!', because it's not. It's very clearly not. Anyone who has ever seen an embryo under a microscope, like I have during prac courses, can't actually truthfully call it a person, because it so clearly not a person - no brain, no nerves, no organs, no limbs, no skin.... it's about as "human" as a collection of skin flakes. Sure, it might have more potential to develop INTO a human, but at the embryo stage it is no more self-aware, cognizant or capable of feeling than a cell culture. Yet I don't hear anyone complain when I kill and grind up literally millions of HeLa Cells and extract the RNA for use in experiments. People quite clearly recognize that a cell culture is just a bunch of cells. Well, an embryo during early stage development is also just a mass of cells.
Same thing with very early stage foetuses. They don't yet have brains. Brain development does not begin until quite some time after conception. I don't have the exact figures of when brain development begins - I'm not a developmental biologist, just a lowly molecular guy, and it is different for each foetus, but it doesn't happen right away, and the foetus's brain takes a while to fully form. That's science. Anyone even REMOTELY educated in biology cannot disagree with those facts. Brain development does NOT begin at conception and foetuses sometimes do not have brains until quite a bit further on in the development process.
However.... at some stage before birth the brain has mostly formed. We know this because premature babies with mostly functioning brains have been born - my brother was one of them. I know for certain that a week before full term.... most foetuses have mostly or fully formed brains. I can't say for certain whether or not they are fully developed, but I'd wager that they probably are. Shouldn't we err on the side of caution in these cases? If the brain has formed.... aren't they people? I feel very, very, very, VERY uncomfortable with destroying a human brain, any human brain. The destruction of a brain is, in my opinion, the same thing as killing a human. What makes us human are our cognitive abilities - it's what separates us from the animals, it's what gives human life meaning. If late term foetuses have mostly or fully formed brains.... aren't they human? Aren't they?
I'll consent to late-term abortions in the case of rape, incest or if the mother's life is threatened. But for any other reason..... I don't know. A brain is a brain whether it is in the womb or outside the womb.
Again, I'm not a developmental biologist. I went into the molecular/cellular side of things because I find it just as interesting and less messy. So I can't provide a definite time limit on when abortion switches from being gravy beans to being not-gravy-beans (infanticide or manslaughter). Development is a complex, messy affair and different cases develop differently. We don't all begin to form brains at exactly the same time (although there is a general time frame at which brain development begins).
I would say... and this is just going by the seat of my pants here.... that abortion or embryo destruction at anytime before 2-3 months is absolutely fine. After that..... I think we should, if it's possible, scan the foetus to determine how much brain/neural tissue has formed, to decide if it's okay to abort or not. But if the foetus is one or two months away from delivery, if it does not threaten the mother's life and if it does not have significant genetic or developmental abnormalities that preclude a worthwhile or long term life.... then I say we should call it a human (albeit a human-in-the-womb) and prevent abortion.
I feel uncomfortable at conferring personhood on a being just because it emerges from a vagina. I confer personhood when the brain mostly (or fully) forms, no sooner, no later than that.
My god....
I don't believe in hell but, Fuck, nothing on this earth could be punishment enough for someone doing this. burning for eternity only seems like a start for what this vile insult to humanity deserves.
I can safely say I see no reason why someone would post this. I could have gone to bed tonight feeling pretty good but after reading this I'll feel dead inside for at least a few days.
I don't believe in hell but, Fuck, nothing on this earth could be punishment enough for someone doing this. burning for eternity only seems like a start for what this vile insult to humanity deserves.
I can safely say I see no reason why someone would post this. I could have gone to bed tonight feeling pretty good but after reading this I'll feel dead inside for at least a few days.
Did he think that he wouldn't get caught? At what point did he think: "I don't want this child. I can't afford it. Since it's already in our life and my girlfriend wants it but I don't want to be a part of this, I think I'll kill it with a cinder block. This will totally get rid of my problems and nobody will find out."
Also:
1. If you never want kids ever the first thing you can do is get a vasectomy or get your tubes tied. While it is an expensive operation, if you want sex and never children, do this.
2. If you're a woman and you don't want the operation but still want sex without children, take the birth control pill. In the long run it's better for your periods and is less expensive than plan B.
3. If you're a man always wear condoms. Plus, this is the best way to stop the spread of STDs. If you don't like the feel of them, refer yourself back to step one. If you want kids someday, just not now, talk to your GF about step 2.
4. If you're a woman but don't like the pill and want kids someday, there's that plastic thing that doctors can insert into your fallopian tubes. Can't remember what it's called, but I've got some female friends who have it and say it's worked so far.
5. If for whatever reason you're a couple and you don't want to do any of the above but still want to have sex, guess what? There's alternatives to vaginal. Oral, anal, handjobs, footjobs, titjobs, look them up! There's such a thing as "fetishes" and often times your partner will have one, and it may not involve penis+vagina! Check kama sutra and the internet. They will help you.
6. If you've already had sex and might be worried about pregnancy, there's "Plan B." It's a pill that stops sperm from fertilizing an egg. You can still take it up to 72 hours after having unprotected sex.
7. There's also an "abortion pill" that I've heard of. No idea what it is, but look into that.
8. If you're past the 3-day mark, and you're sure you're pregnant, then unfortunately abortion is one of your only options at this point. While it is socially taboo in many situations, it is LEGAL. The important part is that abortion is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT LEGAL. And there are doctor's offices that will do abortions. Google them, most likely you'll find one in your town or in a city near you.
9. If abortion is not a viable option at this point, there are still adoption agencies if you absolutely CANNOT deal/afford a child right now. Once again, google will help you. Find one, start some paperwork and you won't have to deal with the kid. Just know that adoption agencies keep your info and the child might come back and find you one day. That's not a warning, just keep that in mind.
10. If you somehow fail past ALL OF THOSE POINTS then you're fucked. Of course, you could TALK WITH THE WOMAN WHO HAD THE BABY AND TELL HER YOU DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF THE CHILD'S LIFE. Yes, again, this is socially taboo. But if you absolutely do not want a kid, you have every right to not be. She will hate you. And this might fuck over her life. And you're a huge dick and incredibly stupid if you get to here, but don't worry. Nothing about anything I've said is illegal. You can walk out. It is an option. But seriously? THERE'S 9 ITEMS ON THERE. And more, if you do some searching. So, take at least one precaution, and you won't be standing over an infant's dead body holding a bloody cinder block.
Also:
1. If you never want kids ever the first thing you can do is get a vasectomy or get your tubes tied. While it is an expensive operation, if you want sex and never children, do this.
2. If you're a woman and you don't want the operation but still want sex without children, take the birth control pill. In the long run it's better for your periods and is less expensive than plan B.
3. If you're a man always wear condoms. Plus, this is the best way to stop the spread of STDs. If you don't like the feel of them, refer yourself back to step one. If you want kids someday, just not now, talk to your GF about step 2.
4. If you're a woman but don't like the pill and want kids someday, there's that plastic thing that doctors can insert into your fallopian tubes. Can't remember what it's called, but I've got some female friends who have it and say it's worked so far.
5. If for whatever reason you're a couple and you don't want to do any of the above but still want to have sex, guess what? There's alternatives to vaginal. Oral, anal, handjobs, footjobs, titjobs, look them up! There's such a thing as "fetishes" and often times your partner will have one, and it may not involve penis+vagina! Check kama sutra and the internet. They will help you.
6. If you've already had sex and might be worried about pregnancy, there's "Plan B." It's a pill that stops sperm from fertilizing an egg. You can still take it up to 72 hours after having unprotected sex.
7. There's also an "abortion pill" that I've heard of. No idea what it is, but look into that.
8. If you're past the 3-day mark, and you're sure you're pregnant, then unfortunately abortion is one of your only options at this point. While it is socially taboo in many situations, it is LEGAL. The important part is that abortion is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT LEGAL. And there are doctor's offices that will do abortions. Google them, most likely you'll find one in your town or in a city near you.
9. If abortion is not a viable option at this point, there are still adoption agencies if you absolutely CANNOT deal/afford a child right now. Once again, google will help you. Find one, start some paperwork and you won't have to deal with the kid. Just know that adoption agencies keep your info and the child might come back and find you one day. That's not a warning, just keep that in mind.
10. If you somehow fail past ALL OF THOSE POINTS then you're fucked. Of course, you could TALK WITH THE WOMAN WHO HAD THE BABY AND TELL HER YOU DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF THE CHILD'S LIFE. Yes, again, this is socially taboo. But if you absolutely do not want a kid, you have every right to not be. She will hate you. And this might fuck over her life. And you're a huge dick and incredibly stupid if you get to here, but don't worry. Nothing about anything I've said is illegal. You can walk out. It is an option. But seriously? THERE'S 9 ITEMS ON THERE. And more, if you do some searching. So, take at least one precaution, and you won't be standing over an infant's dead body holding a bloody cinder block.
I can see his reasoning, but really this is ridiculous.
He should of sent the kid to an orphanage or something. That would have been so much better for the baby.
He should of sent the kid to an orphanage or something. That would have been so much better for the baby.
okay fine but he's not in a poverty stricken country and if he didn't want tho have the kid he should have had an abortion also his girlfriend had children with 5 other guys already.besides he could have put the kid up for adoption and anyone who chooses not to have kids is good? does that mean that I can drop my unwanted kid off a cliff because I didn't want it and then have sex again and do the same?AnythingOutstanding said:
