man stuck in a womans body and vice versa

[shootthebandit]

I know theres a lot of transgender, transexual and transvestite stuff on here and a lot of people use the phrase: man stuck in a womans body or vice versa. I have a problem with this phrase just because you think that you are a woman it doesnt make you a women. If i was to genuinely believe that i was a black man trapped inside a white mans body and i blacked myself up and permed my hair etc people wouldnt respect that choice they would probably try and get me profesional help and rightfully so. The same goes for gender just because you believe in your head that you are the opposite sex it still doesnt make you that sex.

Its just my opinion that transexuals are not actually the opposite sex and instead have a "crossed connection" in their brain

 

[Zeckt]

That is just it, your opinion. We have talked about it and discussed this many times over and you are neither right or wrong for expressing your opinion, but that's all it is. Just an opinion that is or is not shared by everyone. Why throw mud at each other when each side is convinced they are right? I'm just going to leave it at that.

 

[Nickolai77]

I don't have any personal experience on the matter, but as i understand gender identity is a certain mentality. Men and women think in certain ways and so if you put a male or female "mind" into a body of the opposite sex they're going to feel like they're in the wrong body. Or, as it happens in the womb- the brain develops the opposite gender identity to the rest of the body. There isn't such thing as a "black" or "white" mentality, because race refers to generalised physiological traits which don't necessarily impact on your mind and personality. Gender identity however does, because there are male and females mentalities.

 

[sanquin]

Sorry but comparing male and female to being black or white is just...stupid. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Black/white is mostly just a skin colour difference not a different chemistry in your brain. Male and female brains really do work differently. So there really is such a thing as a male or a female brain.

That being said, believe what you want. Science disagrees with you. But hey, if that's what you want to believe go ahead. Just don't bother transgender people with it.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

Yay, another thread of someone not understanding basic biology!

 

[Rosiv]

I know theres a lot of transgender, transexual and transvestite stuff on here and a lot of people use the phrase: man stuck in a womans body or vice versa. I have a problem with this phrase just because you think that you are a woman it doesnt make you a women. If i was to genuinely believe that i was a black man trapped inside a white mans body and i blacked myself up and permed my hair etc people wouldnt respect that choice they would probably try and get me profesional help and rightfully so. The same goes for gender just because you believe in your head that you are the opposite sex it still doesnt make you that sex.

Its just my opinion that transexuals are not actually the opposite sex and instead have a "crossed connection" in their brain

Well whether they are genuine in sex/gender depends on how you define them, no? I mean if you define sex as your physical components, then a transgender wouldnt be, but a transsexual would be, or a transgender with HRT would be to a degree. But if you were to define it strictly genetically, as in, only your phenotype can be determined by genetics, then i guess not.

As for gender, i mean its a pretty vague term, a lot of people see it as being socially constructed, and if that's the case, then anyone can be trans as long as they change themselves enough. Others see it as biologically started somehow, as through exposure to testosterone,

Spoiler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation , under the title Gender identity disorder

. Although both views have there flaws, if your expecting some sort of absolution on transgenderism, i don't think you'll find it. The causes/effects/reasons for transgenderism is hotly debated, as homosexuality, and you might probably see that debate if this thread heats up.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

Actually there is a huge problem albino black people face about being percieved as white despite having all the characteristics and culture of being black:


Don't know exactly what this adds to the debate, but just thought I'd toss it in there.

 

[Dirge Eterna]

I have a friend who identifies as a Female but has nebulous sexual characteristics. She has very feminine features, small breasts, but she has a penis and testicles that never descended and she has ridges between her testicles and anus that basically look like a female vulva. She was born with ambiguous genitalia and her parents decided that she would be a male and had her surgically adapted to reflect being a male. She likes men and women but she prefers men as she feels like she is a female and not a male nor does she think of herself as gay. She wants to have full reconstructive surgery as she does not have full feelings sexually and she desires to have her outsides match her insides. So there definitely are cases like hers where a person feels like they are stuck in the wrong body. I work in a medical lab that specializes in genetic testing on ambiguous genitalia in babies and it happens a lot more than is commonly known.

 

[averydeeadaccount]

I agree with the OP that transgenderism (if that is a word) is a psychiatric disorder. People with it think they are different from what they are, and treatment should aim to change their perception of themself, rather than change their actual body.
As an example: BIID, in which a problem entirely within the patient's mind tricks them into thinking that a part of their body does not belong, and inspires them to attempt to amputate it. At first they could seek a surgeon to amputate their limb, but this was quickly deemed unethical and an alternative of psychotherapy was developed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder
I think the same reasoning should apply for sex change operations; that surgeons profiting from the operations are doing so by leading their patient's to believe that they are trapped in the wrong body, when in fact they have a potentially curable mental illness.

 

[Rosiv]

I agree with the OP that transgenderism (if that is a word) is a psychiatric disorder. People with it think they are different from what they are, and treatment should aim to change their perception of themself, rather than change their actual body.
As an example: BIID, in which a problem entirely within the patient's mind tricks them into thinking that a part of their body does not belong, and inspires them to attempt to amputate it. At first they could seek a surgeon to amputate their limb, but this was quickly deemed unethical and an alternative of psychotherapy was developed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder
I think the same reasoning should apply for sex change operations; that surgeons profiting from the operations are doing so by leading their patient's to believe that they are trapped in the wrong body, when in fact they have a potentially curable mental illness.

Yea but the psychotherapy doesn't work in alot/both cases sadly. I mean it would be the "easier" option yes, since surgery/HRT can get expensive, but i guess when you consider how certain people can react to being crippled, yea i see why they would be ethically against it.

That being said, i think BIID is a bit different from transgenderism, in that cutting off ones limbs in effect disables you, and if they were poor, leaving them in a disabled state would hamper their life/employment opportunities. The same cant really be said for transgenderism, since AFAIK, alot jobs don't require certain sexes.

It's just been shown really that in cases of homosexuality, transgenderism, or what have you, changing something so integral to someones identity is alot harder then changing the flesh. Should research be done in these areas? Maybe, but i mean i think quality of life is more important than making people normal.

 

[Angelowl]

I agree with the OP that transgenderism (if that is a word) is a psychiatric disorder. People with it think they are different from what they are, and treatment should aim to change their perception of themself, rather than change their actual body.
As an example: BIID, in which a problem entirely within the patient's mind tricks them into thinking that a part of their body does not belong, and inspires them to attempt to amputate it. At first they could seek a surgeon to amputate their limb, but this was quickly deemed unethical and an alternative of psychotherapy was developed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder
I think the same reasoning should apply for sex change operations; that surgeons profiting from the operations are doing so by leading their patient's to believe that they are trapped in the wrong body, when in fact they have a potentially curable mental illness.

Just wanted you to note that they tried curing it for decades, resulting in a severe increase in suicides (people react badly to brainwashing attempts). And not to be insulting, but do you have any knowledge in psychiatric fields at all? The reason I ask is because a disorder and a disease are very different things. A disease can be cured, for disorders you can only relieve the patient of stress and try to help them live a functional life.

Psychological problems, diseases and disorders. The defining factor for the last one is that it can't be cured and is usually an inborn trait. This is really basic stuff that I learned in high school.

Why we should go back to treatments that was concluded not to work decades ago and nearly all the relevant patients objects to is beyond me.

As for what causes gender dysphoria, it probably is an androgynized state as with most intersexual syndromes. Research the last decade has noticed the similarities between the experiences of transsexuals and intersexuals.

OT: I personally dislike that description. It is simplified so that it is even remotely understandable for normal people, but due to being severly simplified people very often misunderstands it.

 

[averydeeadaccount]

Yea but the psychotherapy doesn't work in alot/both cases sadly. I mean it would be the "easier" option yes, since surgery/HRT can get expensive, but i guess when you consider how certain people can react to being crippled, yea i see why they would be ethically against it.

That being said, i think BIID is a bit different from transgenderism, in that cutting off ones limbs in effect disables you, and if they were poor, leaving them in a disabled state would hamper their life/employment opportunities. The same cant really be said for transgenderism, since AFAIK, alot jobs don't require certain sexes.

It's just been shown really that in cases of homosexuality, transgenderism, or what have you, changing something so integral to someones identity is alot harder then changing the flesh. Should research be done in these areas? Maybe, but i mean i think quality of life is more important than making people normal.

There are permanent disadvantages to sex change operations, for one it leaves people infertile, their new sex organs are only aesthetic and can't actually reproduce. To the disability of amputation point, yes it would make it harder to find a job, but that should not affect the ethics of the question. If it is someone's right to change their own body for no other reason than that they don;t like how it is now, than the specifics shouldn't matter. If it isn't, then all permanent self-alterations based on self-delusion should be opposed.
As to the quality of life point, I detest the cultural concept that we would rather change the world than have to adapt to our situation. Air conditioning is one thing, but changing one's own biochemistry is nearing ridiculous.

 

[averydeeadaccount]

Just wanted you to note that they tried curing it for decades, resulting in a severe increase in suicides (people react badly to brainwashing attempts). And not to be insulting, but do you have any knowledge in psychiatric fields at all? The reason I ask is because a disorder and a disease are very different things. A disease can be cured, for disorders you can only relieve the patient of stress and try to help them live a functional life.

I don't mean shouting at the patient till they admit they are a man/woman, I mean trying to alter their chemistry till their brain identifies as what they genetically are. As opposed to altering their chemistry till their body appears to be what they think they are, it looks far more reasonable.

Psychological problems, diseases and disorders. The defining factor for the last one is that it can't be cured and is usually an inborn trait. This is really basic stuff that I learned in high school.

Though I probably should have said 'potentially treatable mental illness' i did not use the word disease once, so i'm not sure what you're referring to.

Why we should go back to treatments that was concluded not to work decades ago and nearly all the relevant patients objects to is beyond me.

Because we have potentially effective medical techniques that didn't exist then, and have not been tried.
I don't think the medical decisions should be made by the relevant patients, because they have a psychological disorder that alters their perception of themselves. Decisions should be made by educated and objective medical professionals, among which their is still some debate.

As for what causes gender dysphoria, it probably is an androgynized state as with most intersexual syndromes. Research the last decade has noticed the similarities between the experiences of transsexuals and intersexuals.

OT: I personally dislike that description. It is simplified so that it is even remotely understandable for normal people, but due to being severly simplified people very often misunderstands it.

I accept I have a limited understanding of psychology, but what little research I have seen seems to suggest my argument makes sense at a minimum. If there is something important i'm missing i'd be interested.

 

[Angelowl]

Just wanted you to note that they tried curing it for decades, resulting in a severe increase in suicides (people react badly to brainwashing attempts). And not to be insulting, but do you have any knowledge in psychiatric fields at all? The reason I ask is because a disorder and a disease are very different things. A disease can be cured, for disorders you can only relieve the patient of stress and try to help them live a functional life.

I don't mean shouting at the patient till they admit they are a man/woman, I mean trying to alter their chemistry till their brain identifies as what they genetically are. As opposed to altering their chemistry till their body appears to be what they think they are, it looks far more reasonable.

Psychological problems, diseases and disorders. The defining factor for the last one is that it can't be cured and is usually an inborn trait. This is really basic stuff that I learned in high school.

Though I probably should have said 'potentially treatable mental illness' i did not use the word disease once, so i'm not sure what you're referring to.

Why we should go back to treatments that was concluded not to work decades ago and nearly all the relevant patients objects to is beyond me.

Because we have potentially effective medical techniques that didn't exist then, and have not been tried.
I don't think the medical decisions should be made by the relevant patients, because they have a psychological disorder that alters their perception of themselves. Decisions should be made by educated and objective medical professionals, among which their is still some debate.

As for what causes gender dysphoria, it probably is an androgynized state as with most intersexual syndromes. Research the last decade has noticed the similarities between the experiences of transsexuals and intersexuals.

OT: I personally dislike that description. It is simplified so that it is even remotely understandable for normal people, but due to being severly simplified people very often misunderstands it.

I accept I have a limited understanding of psychology, but what little research I have seen seems to suggest my argument makes sense at a minimum. If there is something important i'm missing i'd be interested.

Regarding the illness/disease, english is my scond language and I guess I mistranlated it somewhere on the way. Yeah, illness is the correct term, sorry about that. My point still stands though, after the last decades of research there hasn't been any data to suggest that changing the brain in a full-grown person would actually work.

So the wishes of the patient doesn't matter, huh... reminds me of the fifthies when my government took all homosexuals they could find, put them in asylums where they strapped them to chairs and electrocuted them. On a serious and kind-hearted intention to cure them of their faulty preferences.
Seeing how even if the current methods aren't perfect, they do their job in matching up the body and the mind and reducing the emotional stress it puts on the person. Disregarding social stigma and external factors most patients get a lot more stable and functional. In Sweden we haven't had any regretters in over 30 years.

 

[Something Amyss]

If i was to genuinely believe that i was a black man trapped inside a white mans body and i blacked myself up and permed my hair etc people wouldnt respect that choice they would probably try and get me profesional help and rightfully so.

I somehow doubt that, my poorly thought-out friend. However, that's operating under the false mentality that there is somehow an equivalent racial identity. If you're going to use specious folk wisdom, at least make it cute, like "Just because a cat has kittens in the oven doesn't make them muffins!"

The same goes for gender just because you believe in your head that you are the opposite sex it still doesnt make you that sex.

Probably why there's such an intense screening process, to weed out people who merely "believe" so.

Its just my opinion that transexuals are not actually the opposite sex and instead have a "crossed connection" in their brain

and you are entitled to any opinion you want. It doesn't mean we can't counter it with science. This is really no different than flat earthers or any other hokum. You can insist that it's wrong, but the medical and scientific community disagrees.

But still, it sounds like this:

Yay, another thread of someone not understanding basic biology!

simply put that phrase is the easiest way to explain to people like you, who have no idea what it is like to go through what it feels like.

Perhaps we need a better way to explain it, then.

Then again, I'm not sure there's much one can do to counter specious reasoning and preconceptions. This is why flat earthers persist.

As an example: BIID, in which a problem entirely within the patient's mind tricks them into thinking that a part of their body does not belong, and inspires them to attempt to amputate it. At first they could seek a surgeon to amputate their limb, but this was quickly deemed unethical and an alternative of psychotherapy was developed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder
I think the same reasoning should apply for sex change operations; that surgeons profiting from the operations are doing so by leading their patient's to believe that they are trapped in the wrong body, when in fact they have a potentially curable mental illness.

And the fact that one is considered unethical and the other is not hasn't tripped an alarm in your mind?

Additionally, you have it backwards. The treatment of transsexuals developed from the condition, not the other way around. Not to mention, transsexuals are heavily screened and even to some extent dissuaded from any such action.

The further fact that there is a body of evidence indicating that psychiatric therapy is effective in the case of BIID and similar afflictions, contrary to the findings of similar treatments for transsexuals (and homosexuals) should also be a clue.

But yes, they are superficially the same, which appears to be the only criteria to disregard the one as being like the other.

 

[Something Amyss]

I don't mean shouting at the patient till they admit they are a man/woman, I mean trying to alter their chemistry till their brain identifies as what they genetically are. As opposed to altering their chemistry till their body appears to be what they think they are, it looks far more reasonable.

Emphasis, again, on "looks." If it were only that simple.

I'm curious as to how you would actually propose to do this, because your "reasonable" solution is one that has baffled the medical community for...Well, ever. Transgendered individuals are wired differently than the cisgendered counterpart with the same birth sex organs. Do you know how to rewire the brain? Like, physically rewire it? If so, could you share with the rest of the world?

 

[Something Amyss]

as for the disadvantages of gender reassignment surgery in the case of someone going from male to female. for all intents and purposes they are the same as a female who has had a hysterectomy.

And might not be considered a disadvantage, one might add. We're too obsessed with childbearing as a culture, anyway.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The same goes for gender just because you believe in your head that you are the opposite sex it still doesnt make you that sex.

What makes you a certain sex, and does it allow everyone to fit neatly into an existing category?

If you can't answer the first, or the answer to the second is "no", then we can't have simple and fixed labels for men and women.