man stuck in a womans body and vice versa

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

Why do you even care?

Is this the new thing on the escapist? Lots of trans threads coming up and people sharing their ignorance and misunderstandings?
What possible harm does it do you to let other people be themselves?
You think that they're not really being them?
Well, sucks to be you. It's not your life, not your problem.

Unless someone is trying to make you transition against your will, it's really not your business what they do.

I just don't get it.

Captcha: Senior citizen
Damn right, you kids get off my lawn.

I think you answered your question in your last sentence. For the most part they're kids, they're finding out that the world and all the people in it are a lot more complex than they've been told for the past Xteen years and they are trying to process all this new information that doesn't quite fit with what they know, and part of that process is discussing it with others. Since they don't understand and are largely ignorant, that is going to show when they discuss it.

On Topic: Others with a far better understanding of this topic have answered already so I don't really have anything to add.

 

[Jast]

I had so many thoughts and ideas running through my head as I was reading this topic, so I hope I can regurgitate these thoughts in a coherent and brief post.

I feel like this sounds like such a cop-out answer but the idea of feeling like you are supposed to be the opposite gender that you are born as is really something you must experience for you to understand. Judging from the OP I'm assuming you are content with your gender. The idea of changing your sex on a whim for you would be ludicrous. And that's fine. I'm glad you are content with your assigned gender.

But what if you weren't content with your physical gender? That is an incredibly helpless feeling. Do you know what it feels like to believe that you were BORN wrong? It's not something you can just snap your fingers and have it changed immediately. And it's not something that just pops into your head one day. It sits there and you mull over it constantly. You think maybe it will go away or one day you will wake up as the preferred gender, but of course that does not happen.

So what can someone do about it? Well, a person can go about physically getting changed. Now, that is an incredibly lengthy process and costs quite a bit of money. And then at the end of it all, people with traditional thinking will tell that person that they made a horrible mistake and should be ashamed of themselves, but hopefully that person has the resolve to stand by their decision. Alternatively, they could decide to do nothing about getting physically changed and figure out a way to live with it. But that is difficult to do without stumbling into depression and becoming self destructive. Again, that stems from the belief that you feel like you are born wrong. But hey, at least traditional thinking will tell that person that they did the right thing by not changing themselves even though they may feel absolutely misserable with their lives.

I apologize if I was rambling a bit. This is actually a topic I care alot about but it is really hard to put EVERY single one of ideas on paper (which I didn't) and have it make sense. Really, I just want to say that telling someone with gender dysphoria to just "deal with it," has no compassion at all.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

You are so right it hurts! It's ridiculous how closed-minded people can be on the internet, and I for one have never seen anyone on a forum read a source they've been presented as evidence against their argument and actually take on board what the damned thing says. At worst they ignore it and at best they blindly refute it. It's as though people see a willingness to learn from others as a sign of weakness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

People will cheerfully read and absorb any scholarly material or research data you can provide that will reinforce their existing point of view, and possibly reply with something like 'hear hear' or 'finally someone gets it'. It is only when the information you provide is contradictory that selective interest sets in.

Notably, anyone reading THIS paragraph is presently nodding and saying "yup, yup, other people do that all the time", when myside bias is an almost universal phenomenon.

If anyone IS interested in reading articles on the subject, there seem to be no shortage of them:

http://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=transsexual+brain+differences&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=pmn9UcCeDK3biwK_yIC4BA&ved=0CCgQgQMwAA

 

[Innegativeion]

as for the disadvantages of gender reassignment surgery in the case of someone going from male to female. for all intents and purposes they are the same as a female who has had a hysterectomy.

And might not be considered a disadvantage, one might add. We're too obsessed with childbearing as a culture, anyway.

Ah, I'd have to certainly agree there.

The human population is too bloated as it is, and there are plenty of orphans in need of adopting, or one could use a surrogate (and a bank... situation of course depending on mtf or ftm) if you're desperate to pass on your genes. There are options, is my point.

At any rate, I can't imagine that we're more than 10 or 20 years away from stem cell and bio-printing research getting to the point that we'll be able to do perfect sex transitions.

I feel like this is an issue that will resolve itself.

 

[Something Amyss]

If I am wrong, please send me a scholarly article detailing why and I'll gladly change my position but I don't think I am given the current research I have read.

I like the fact that you request scholarly articles but provide none of your own. Quite interesting.

In my experience, people on the internet request evidence and scholarly articles as a replacement for their own inability to respond to the issue at hand. No one reads or cares about them and it never changes their position when provided. I have better things to do than scour JSTOR or PsychInfo or something similar for an article to make my point when no one will read it or care.

You say that, but weren't you the one who did just that?

Maybe you shouldn't be lecturing when, from all appearances, you are describing your own actions.

Notably, anyone reading THIS paragraph is presently nodding and saying "yup, yup, other people do that all the time", when myside bias is an almost universal phenomenon.

Which makes it the second time it was done in the same chain of responses. LOL. Love that.

Also cheers for actually providing links to information.

 

[Jacco]

If I am wrong, please send me a scholarly article detailing why and I'll gladly change my position but I don't think I am given the current research I have read.

I like the fact that you request scholarly articles but provide none of your own. Quite interesting.

In my experience, people on the internet request evidence and scholarly articles as a replacement for their own inability to respond to the issue at hand. No one reads or cares about them and it never changes their position when provided. I have better things to do than scour JSTOR or PsychInfo or something similar for an article to make my point when no one will read it or care.

You say that, but weren't you the one who did just that?

Maybe you shouldn't be lecturing when, from all appearances, you are describing your own actions.

I fail to see what you are talking about. I am perfectly willing to provide sources and information to people who actually care and want to engage in a proper academic debate. People here do not, nor will they change their minds no matter how many links or articles I post. So why should I waste my time? I have seen the research and written about this subject so I know more or less what I am talking about.

 

[Something Amyss]

At any rate, I can't imagine that we're more than 10 or 20 years away from stem cell and bio-printing research getting to the point that we'll be able to do perfect sex transitions.

I feel like this is an issue that will resolve itself.

Actually creating the structure is pretty involved, especially if we're talking for reproductive purposes. It would require a refabrication of the pelvic structure, which would be very involved.

There are advances being made, but I'm not sure progress will be that substantial. It also won't fix the social element, as the bigots who currently insist your genetics mean more than even geneticists would dictate are still going to insist "born a dude, always a dude."

 

[Something Amyss]

I fail to see what you are talking about. I am perfectly willing to provide sources and information to people who actually care and want to engage in a proper academic debate. People here do not, nor will they change their minds no matter how many links or articles I post. So why should I waste my time? I have seen the research and written about this subject so I know more or less what I am talking about.

"I would totally do it, but you guys a TEH BIAS!"

You know what? I honestly don't care if you post them or not. I just find it telling that you're claiming you could and copping out. I seriously doubt there's much weight to your argument. Meanwhile, BloatedGuppy actually provided scholarly articles supporting his claim, rather than saying he totally could if we weren't all so teh bias.

 

[AnarchistFish]

Ethnicity is pretty much entirely physical, and it's not something which is as easy to categorise solidly as gender.

Not comparable.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

The DSM V just changed "gender identity disorder" to "gender dysphoria", so now its the official medical term, and "gender identity disorder" is out-of-date and medically incorrect.

Bah, everyone knows the DSM is a tool of American Hegemony.

Wait... is this R&P?

 

[Ragsnstitches]

I know theres a lot of transgender, transexual and transvestite stuff on here and a lot of people use the phrase: man stuck in a womans body or vice versa. I have a problem with this phrase just because you think that you are a woman it doesnt make you a women. If i was to genuinely believe that i was a black man trapped inside a white mans body and i blacked myself up and permed my hair etc people wouldnt respect that choice they would probably try and get me profesional help and rightfully so. The same goes for gender just because you believe in your head that you are the opposite sex it still doesnt make you that sex.

Its just my opinion that transexuals are not actually the opposite sex and instead have a "crossed connection" in their brain

I'm going to guess that your opinion doesn't come from any form of self-directed research or rigorous use of the scientific method, no? I'm amazed you can achieve such clarity on things that are still undergoing massive amounts of studies and research by people who have dedicated their careers and lives to understanding these things.

Silly fools, they should have just asked you... cause your feelings on the subject couldn't possibly be woefully misinformed. That would be ludicrous.

Here's a tip for all the feelies out there. If you aren't willing to put the work into studying a subject and also put yourself and your "opinion" under academic and scientific scrutiny, then keep it to yourself. That way you don't offend people simply because you feel that way.

I feel a certain way right now too, but I'll keep it to myself as it isn't kosher on these forums.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Here's a tip for all the feelies out there. If you aren't willing to put the work into studying a subject and also put yourself and your "opinion" under academic and scientific scrutiny, then keep it to yourself. That way you don't offend people simply because you feel that way.

I feel a certain way right now too, but I'll keep it to myself as it isn't kosher on these forums.

More importantly, though, is would it pass peer review?

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

"I would totally do it, but you guys a TEH BIAS!"

That's my argument to the Nobel Prize Physics committee every year.

 

[Beautiful Tragedy]

I didn't really want to chime in here, as I am really tired of this subject... but, i DID want to add something I know has been touched on. WHY is it that when the subject of trans folks comes up, one of the first things mentioned is reproduction? Who cares?! My parents are both healthy, physically capable people, and could have had biological children of their own. However, my father's family carries some sort of "disorder" (mainly because i've never been told the whole deal, i don't know how to refer to it), and he and my mother CHOSE not to pass it on to their offspring. So, my brother and I were adopted. My (soon to be ex-wife) and I tried for years to have kids, due to her (and i am sure i'll get this wrong) polycystic ovaries, and my (naturally occurring) insanely low sperm count, and even lower testosterone levels, we would never be able to conceive. Which in hindsight is a blessing.

Also, I DO understand that gender expression CAN be influenced by society, i get that. But why is it, and how is it that i knew beyond a shadow of a doubt, a mistake was made and I should have been born female at age FIVE? I mean HOW can society have THAT much effect on a 5 year old? Do we even understand gender, and gender roles at 5? Somehow I don't think so.

I wrestled with my gender dysphoria for THIRTY years. In and out of therapy. MOST therapists I saw thought they could cure me, and their continuous attempts only made my dysphoria worse. I finally found a sane therapist who, using the harry benjamin standards of care for diagnosis, after months of intense therapy sessions concluded I had gender dysphoria, and recommended HRT and full transition, but ultimately it was MY decision to actually go through it. What choice did I really have though? I mean transitioning or not was, to me, a life and death decision. I would NEVER wish gender dysphoria on anyone, it is a very difficult thing to deal with, and actual transition (although I am not finished yet), is truly a nightmare. physical changes, suddenly having the way society views you change completely, etc.

The one thing i DO know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, although transition is NOT easy, I am happier than I have ever been since beginning HRT. Even while my 13 year marriage crumbled around me, which it definately for the best, my current living situation is pretty...bad. BUT, I am happy I am becoming who and what I was meant to be. I have the love and support of my entire family, and my ex and i talk all the time... she is very proud of the woman I have become. She WAS the one who nurtured it early on, taught me the ins and outs, etc.

So I will never understand WHY people have an issue with what other people do in their lives... you don't get it? great... learn about it, ASK a trans person, or just fracken ignore us and go about your life... simple huh?


hopefully some of this made sense, i am a bit hungover, and I may have ramble incoherently in there somewhere

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

I was stuck in a woman's body for 10 months... then the ***** gave birth to me without so much as a by-your-leave.

 

[Jacco]

I fail to see what you are talking about. I am perfectly willing to provide sources and information to people who actually care and want to engage in a proper academic debate. People here do not, nor will they change their minds no matter how many links or articles I post. So why should I waste my time? I have seen the research and written about this subject so I know more or less what I am talking about.

"I would totally do it, but you guys a TEH BIAS!"

You know what? I honestly don't care if you post them or not. I just find it telling that you're claiming you could and copping out. I seriously doubt there's much weight to your argument. Meanwhile, BloatedGuppy actually provided scholarly articles supporting his claim, rather than saying he totally could if we weren't all so teh bias.

Who's the one making unsubstantiated claims now?

See, this is what I'm talking about. Whether I posted them or not, we'd still be having this argument. I refuse to waste my time. You are welcome to believe what you want to believe but don't claim it as unequivocal fact. If you are really so interested in this subject, you are welcome to search for my claims yourself.

BloatedGuppy's link was a Google search result for a specific confirming term he put in. Hardly "providing scholarly articles." To his credit, he was making a point and wasn't defending a position, but that fact makes your point moot.

We're done here.

 

[chinangel]

Sorry but comparing male and female to being black or white is just...stupid. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Black/white is mostly just a skin colour difference not a different chemistry in your brain. Male and female brains really do work differently. So there really is such a thing as a male or a female brain.

That being said, believe what you want. Science disagrees with you. But hey, if that's what you want to believe go ahead. Just don't bother transgender people with it.

Comparing black/white and male/female in this scenario is not stupid. If i thought i was a black man inside my body it would be a mental condition that people would try and treat. I wouldnt be percieved as a black man and i wouldnt be encouraged to die my skin etc. In a similar sense transgender should be seen as a mental condition (not that you are insane or there is anything majorly wrong with your psyche just a "crossed connection"). Transgender shouldnt be encouraged to be the other gender and shouldnt be encouraged to get expensive, painful and life altering surgery but should instead be encouraged to seek physcological help in the same sense as the hypothetical white man who believes he is black

Im not here to insult transgender im just trying to figure out how many people believe that a psychological treatment is better

I am transgendered, and I went to several psychologists, including one who I later learned had absolutely no training in gender identity disorders and other required training who blankly declared: "You're not transgendered"

it was emotionally devastating and nearly caused me to suicide. I eventually found a proper clinic that had very extensively trained therapists, psychiatrists and psychologists.

I spent something like 2 years going through the process, the close examinations, the real-life tests, and all the while I had the option to opt out, to quit.

I didn't, and now I have my medications, my changed name, my life is starting to get on track.

thinking you can "cure" transsexuality and that it should be dissuaded is a bit concerning and makes me wonder: "why is it any of your business?" or rather "why is it anyone's business? What I wear, how I identify, what I say and what I do is not of any concern to anyone that it doesn't effect".

Trying to 'cure' me would be so incredibly destructive and ultimately serves no healing purpose to anyone, least of all me, and really only seems to make people uncomfortable with transsexuality and transgendered folk feel better.

Why? I'm not sure, maybe they're afraid that they'll end up in bed with a transgirl, that's the best I can come up with.

Being born in the wrong body is a nightmare, it causes pain, confusion, sadness, depression, anxiety and a whole host of horrid problems...but the hormones, the treatments, they help you to regain some of your dignity. It's not a 'perfect' solution, but it's the best we have, the most humane we have and the most caring one we have: compared to trying the selfish attempt of 'curing' us.

Peace yo.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Trying to 'cure' me would be so incredibly destructive and ultimately serves no healing purpose to anyone, least of all me

What a lot of people who propose various 'cures' seem to miss is that in almost every single case their 'new idea for a cure' has been already been attempted several times and failed miserably... and in the cases where it hasn't been attempted before it's because the proposal is so unrealistic and fanciful (not to mention dangerous and unethical) that not even a 1920's psychologist from the Behaviourist school would have considered it.

and really only seems to make people uncomfortable with transsexuality and transgendered folk feel better.

Those uncomfortable people are a fuck of a lot easier to give psychological treatment to overcome their discomfort than 'curing' transgendered people.

There's my proposal... we continue treating Gender Dysphoria with HRT and SRS and people who have a problem with this can get CBT treatment for their bigotry. Everyone wins and psychologists get to continue making bank.

 

[Jenvas1306]

I know theres a lot of transgender, transexual and transvestite stuff on here and a lot of people use the phrase: man stuck in a womans body or vice versa. I have a problem with this phrase just because you think that you are a woman it doesnt make you a women. If i was to genuinely believe that i was a black man trapped inside a white mans body and i blacked myself up and permed my hair etc people wouldnt respect that choice they would probably try and get me profesional help and rightfully so. The same goes for gender just because you believe in your head that you are the opposite sex it still doesnt make you that sex.

Its just my opinion that transexuals are not actually the opposite sex and instead have a "crossed connection" in their brain

You may want to sticky this into the OP so people see it because all the misinformation in this tread is making my head hurt.

The notion that "men and women are wired differently" in almost entirely false. Most research now is pointing to the fact that men and women are the same in almost every way. There are actually MORE differences between people of the same sex than people of opposite sexes. So this argument that transsexuals are somehow justified in being how they are because they have a "woman's brain" is completely ridiculous.

THAT BEING SAID, before you break out the flamethrowers, no one really know what causes gender dysphoria (which is the proper name for this affliction). Theories range from androgen levels being too high during prenatal brain development to a simple confusion in social gender roles. No one knows.

But do not for a moment think there are "woman" brains and "man" brains. It is misinformative and, frankly, should be offensive to anyone who supports equality and feminism.

If I am wrong, please send me a scholarly article detailing why and I'll gladly change my position but I don't think I am given the current research I have read.

if you argue like that then you assume that transgender people are the only ones that arent 'wired' right. but what if its more so that a biologically female embryo can get its brain 'wired' rather male without ever getting to be transgender? or vice versa. what if human gender is way more complex than just a switch that is either in the state of male or female?
In my opinion all people are a mix of both, just in most cases they still get to have their brain match their body enough to never have a problem with it. others just dont feel like any gender and some feel like both and such stuff.
our society just pushes everyone into the two most occuring physical categories.
transgender people are just the extreme cases where body and brain dont fit anymore.

anyways what ever study you look at in terms of differences in brainfunctionality, you get different results.
some find litte difference between male and female brains, some find more, but very often transgender people (with or without hrt) do show differences to their cisgender counterparts with the same birth-sex.

in the end its quite possible for a female identifying transperson to have brainfunctions that are closer to the female average than lots of ciswomen.

so all that can be concluded at this point is that human genderidentiy is a very complicated thing, the only thing that is certain is that dividing it in simple male/female categories doesnt work.

which means that noone should be judged based on their physical sex.


to the ideas about treating transgenderism in different ways than with hrt and surgery. first of all, hrt and the awesome medical options we have today finally made me feel normal for the first time in my life.
when would altering my brain reach that?
how many of my female characteristics are tolerable and which have to be terminated?
would I still be myself? I doubt that, so such a procedure would kill the me that developed with this brain and this life to have it replaced by something artificial. a personality that only exsists to fit the norm...
scary

my boyfriend doesnt like bacon. does that have to be fixed too? he reacts way more to cute animals than me, does that have to be fixed?
a friend of mine doesnt identify as either gender. does she have to be fixed too?
do we fix homosexuals aswell?
how far would that fixing go?

 

[Wayneguard]

I read an article in People about a 12 year old boy who felt that he was a woman trapped in a boy's body. He's now taking puberty-suppressing drugs until he's old enough to safely undergo gender reassignment... Am I the only one around here who thinks this is fucked up? When I was 12, I (white male) talked with a fake ebonics accent, idolized professional football players and put pictures of nike sneakers on my desktop (not shitting you *facepalm*). A 12 year old can't be trusted to choose what the eat for fucking breakfast much less to make decisions that will have so great an affect on one's body and mind as gender reassignment. Thoughts?