Many video games have succeeded in giving sophisticated deep narratives. Epic debate.

[InconceivableTruth]

All I have ever said is that gaming is not on par with Literature or Cinema. I never once said it was a bad medium or that it didn't have gems. I just said it wasn't as good as cinema or literature!

See, I disagree with this. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Games are capable of having the same THEMATIC DEPTH.

Also, I believe games may have better narratives than films. They are both visual and there are many games with better narratives. For example, let's compare genres: find one cyber-punk film with a better narrative than Deus Ex. You can't, but I can point out a lot cyber-punk prose with deeper philosophical depth and so forth.

As I stated, each medium has their strengths and weakness, but all of them are capable of giving sociological criticisms, power symbolic imagery, and so forth which is commonly referred to as THEMATIC DEPTH.

Yo, defendin' the mediums.

 

[JEBWrench]

Let's compare the narratives of games to films because they are the most similar (visual). I would say Deus Ex is better than any sci-fi film I've ever seen. Of course, there are more philosophically intensive prose, but as I've said, all mediums are better at accomplishing certain goals. There are many games with stories on the same level as "art-house films" and the old classics. For example, Persona 2 has power symbolic imagery alluding to a bunch of mythologies and so forth.

It's better to compare the narrative of films and games, and I say video games are not far behind. Soon there will be video game classes like there are film study courses.

There has yet to be a game with the same power and effect of the films of Wenders or Keirostami.

Is it possible? Probably. But it's not anywhere near that point yet.

Deus Ex being better than any sci-fi film you've seen? I wonder if you've seen A Clockwork Orange or 2001: A Space Odyssey. And no, reading the books don't count, I'm referring to the effectiveness of the film medium here.

(As a complete aside, many people have mentioned that gaming needs its Orson Welles. What it needs is its Stanley Kubrick to really become a true art form.)

 

[Lamorian]

Frankly, if i had to do assignments based around video games, id snap. Id rather just play video games and have fun than do a course or class about them.

 

[InconceivableTruth]

Frankly there's nothing more pretentious I find than somebody going on about how Ico is strictly on par with citizen Kane and the day videogames are brought into classrooms for analysis rather than design is probably the day I stop going to school and start assisting the small legions of guerilla gamers, the pnly remnants of the bygone days when games were played for fun and were almost free of the poor mans over-analyzers.

First off, why are you comparing two pieces of art that have different aims? I was using ICO as an example of how sublime some symbolism may be, but I wasn't using it as a way to undermine film as a medium. Refer to my last post.

I'm saying, in general, games are capable of having the same thematic depth as film. A long time ago, people considered sequential art to be trash, but now look at Alan Moore's fame. Watchmen is incredible.

 

[blankedboy]

That essay convinced me. Videogame analysis would be an epic assignment.

 

[InconceivableTruth]

There has yet to be a game with the same power and effect of the films of Wenders or Keirostami.

Is it possible? Probably. But it's not anywhere near that point yet.

When I watch Death in Venice and play Shadow of the Colossus, similar "feelings" are spread through my body. It is getting there, as a whole, and many games have already achieved it. Soon it will be respected just like sequential art (e.g., Alan Moore). You need to be more positive and hopeful for this medium.

Deus Ex being better than any sci-fi film you've seen? I wonder if you've seen A Clockwork Orange or 2001: A Space Odyssey. And no, reading the books don't count, I'm referring to the effectiveness of the film medium here.

I have. I don't consider 2001: A Space Odyssey cyberpunk. It's sci-fi, but it is not cyberpunk. 2001 A Clockwork Orange dealt with different themes and it's not very good to compare, but Deus Ex had many moments, especially with the computer AIs, that dealt with the human condition. Remember the scene with the pastor in 2001: A Space Odyssey claiming good deeds only come from free-will? Well, Deus Ex is chockful of those. It didn't hold back with its sociological criticisms.

(As a complete aside, many people have mentioned that gaming needs its Orson Welles. What it needs is its Stanley Kubrick to really become a true art form.)

I recommend playing the game Fatale: Exploring Salome. It's one example of a game that completely expresses its story through atmosphere.

 

[Avelestar]

"Digital games are a successful, commercially important and highly engaging form of media. Their interactive form represents a major shift from more conventional, narrative-based media. Although they currently occupy a demonised position within mainstream discourses, they are played by a majority of people in Australia and their ubiquity demands that we examine the new practices of production and engagement that they represent. Gaining a critical perspective on digital games that is based on research and evidence is an essential part of any degree seeking to comprehensively cover media."

The blurb for a Winter course at my university (Uni Adelaide, Australia ) I found whilst looking for courses I could do to catch up on failed first year courses. My jaw dropped, and I rushed to try and sign up for it...only to discover there was only 12 spaces in the class, and they were all full.

This is analysing it from a Media standpoint, but its a good start!

 

[SonicKoala]

Well, I suppose the question is how would such a class be carried out? Would you have everybody in the class play through the game? What if some students found the game too difficult and were unable to complete the game, thus preventing them from experiencing the entire narrative? How would you go about making sure that every student in the class was even capable of playing the game being studied? Is the school going to have some sort of computer/console lab for all the students to use? Wouldn't that then necessitate a portion of the class being dedicated to just playing the game (thereby ruining the possibility of any respectable educational facility adopting such a program - people go to class to learn).

I think it's an interesting idea, but I just don't see it working in practice - and besides, if you want thematic depth, then go read a fucking book; to have a class focusing solely on a game's narrative is to blatantly ignore the aspects of video games which make them unique, and thus to make such a class would be pointless. If you want to study those, then study them on your own time. There are too few games which feature narratives on par with literature or film to actually necessitate the creation of such a program. If you're going to make a class about video games, it should be exploring their influence and impact on society as a whole. I feel that'd be far more interesting.

 

[InconceivableTruth]

All I have ever said is that gaming is not on par with Literature or Cinema. I never once said it was a bad medium or that it didn't have gems. I just said it wasn't as good as cinema or literature!

See, I disagree with this. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Games are capable of having the same THEMATIC DEPTH.

Also, I believe games may have better narratives than films. They are both visual and there are many games with better narratives. For example, let's compare genres: find one cyber-punk film with a better narrative than Deus Ex. You can't, but I can point out a lot cyber-punk prose with deeper philosophical depth and so forth.

As I stated, each medium has their strengths and weakness, but all of them are capable of giving sociological criticisms, power symbolic imagery, and so forth which is commonly referred to as THEMATIC DEPTH.

Yo, defendin' the mediums.

It is capable YES has it reached that level? NO.

YES, IT HAS. I just listed some games that have. The fact one game has reached that level proves you wrong. If you claimed, "Sequential art is incapable of conveying deep plots," and I gave you Watchmen or Sandman or A CONTRACT WITH GOD, then you'd be proven wrong.

Also, I'm pretty sure more people could input some modern games into the equation also.

Also, I would also like to add Fatale Exploring Salome [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBJ5YO3j13A], one of my favorites. It's an example of a thematically rich game conveying narrative through clever devices.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

I don't care what some people Aerith dying made FF7 much more emotional and it is good game just people believe the hype and get disappointed. So I don't see a problem with a Video game class if t hey can do a Film class in fact why not throw in Anime and Manga classes too as there is some good stuff there. I personally would never take it(although I might do programming) same as why I would never want to do a music course. I do these things to relax and escape from reality I don't want to make playing music and games my job.

 

[kingcom]

Pretty much every university in Australia has a video game related course (usually several depending on what your trying to do). A school is to waste time and kill your hopes and dreams, if you survive you get to go to university and find them again.

 

[InconceivableTruth]

I think it's an interesting idea, but I just don't see it working in practice - and besides, if you want thematic depth, then go read a fucking book; to have a class focusing solely on a game's narrative is to blatantly ignore the aspects of video games which make them unique, and thus to make such a class would be pointless. If you want to study those, then study them on your own time. There are too few games which feature narratives on par with literature or film to actually necessitate the creation of such a program. If you're going to make a class about video games, it should be exploring their influence and impact on society as a whole. I feel that'd be far more interesting.

If you want to learn about a game's narrative depth, you'd also need to take gameplay into the equation (i.g., how it functions in relation to the story), aesthetic decisions, and so forth. It is ludology basically.

Yes, reading a book is good, but video games have different strengths books fail in and vice versa. As I stated, I don't think Lovecraft is reproducible in any other medium. Dostoevsky is another prime example of an author irreproducible in any other medium. Take all the film adaptations and how they take out Raskolnikov's constant delirious thoughts (AKA the psychological dialogues). I even watched an old Russian adaptation which was poor. Obviously this works better as prose.

Now, what about Deus Ex? That game had high player agency. For example, if you kill a lot of people, your comrades bring it to your attention. Of course, there is one narrative, but it really immersed and maintained a good, deep plot. Playing the game actually "taught" you something about the human condition. It's like watching a great play and having a catharsis and having wondrous thoughts afterwards. I believe Deus Ex and many other games were made for their specific medium; I could conceive a GOOD Silent Hill movie, but there are many games that use player agency to their advantage in order to immerse the player into their powerful narratives.

You need to wipe out your prejudices and try looking at all the mediums. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. I think, a true creative mind, engages in all of them.

 

[JEBWrench]

When I watch Death in Venice and play Shadow of the Colossus, similar "feelings" are spread through my body. It is getting there, as a whole, and many games have already achieved it. Soon it will be respected just like sequential art (e.g., Alan Moore). You need to be more positive and hopeful for this medium.

Don't get me wrong, I do have a lot of hopes for the medium. I just believe it's not there yet, like PayJ has been saying.

I have. I don't consider 2001: A Space Odyssey cyberpunk. It's sci-fi, but it is not cyberpunk. 2001 A Clockwork Orange dealt with different themes and it's not very good to compare, but Deus Ex had many moments, especially with the computer AIs, that dealt with the human condition. Remember the scene with the pastor in 2001: A Space Odyssey claiming good deeds only come from free-will? Well, Deus Ex is chockful of those. It didn't hold back with its sociological criticisms.

You didn't say Cyberpunk, you said Sci-Fi. And I do love Deus Ex. I still don't think it's on par with Kubrick's Science Fiction films.

I recommend playing the game Fatale: Exploring Salome. It's one example of a game that completely expresses its story through atmosphere.

Your recommendation is noted. Tale of Tales has made some excellent pieces from an artistic standpoint. The Graveyard was very involving.

 

[InconceivableTruth]

Don't get me wrong, I do have a lot of hopes for the medium. I just believe it's not there yet, like PayJ has been saying.

Maybe in general, but there are specific examples of games that have literally made it there. I went more in-depth a few posts back up.

You didn't say Cyberpunk, you said Sci-Fi. And I do love Deus Ex. I still don't think it's on par with Kubrick's Science Fiction films.

My mistake, I apologize. I like Stanely Kubrick also. I loved 2001: A Space Odyssey, but I don't think it's fair comparing it to Deus Ex because they have completely different aims. 2001: A Space Odyssey uses a similar minimalist approach as the film Death in Venice, and I said the games ICO and Shadow of the Colossus accomplished this "minimalism" well. Now, imagine Shadow of the Colossus in a sci-fi setting with some post-humanism throwed in, and you have your 2001: A Space Odyssey inspired game.

I actually edited my post explaining how Deus Ex has many similar scenes as the pastor scene about free-will and good actions. For example, confronting Helios for the first time in Deus Ex was very epic, and it conveyed many interesting, huge ideas to the player. The idea the player may decide the fate of society, and the fact you're literally talking to a machine that has undergone a technological singularity is astounding. The game raises up many interesting sociological criticisms also. Even a simple game like Earthbound has a lot to say as the essay I linked revealed.

Your recommendation is noted. Tale of Tales has made some excellent pieces from an artistic standpoint. The Graveyard was very involving.

I know there are more meaningful films out there, but compare the age. Games are progressing rapidly, and there are many games out there that one could claim to have sophisticated narratives. Now, in general, that's a whole different story. I always look at the good and derive my views from them.

 

[L4hlborg]

So I don't see a problem with a Video game class if t hey can do a Film class in fact why not throw in Anime and Manga classes too as there is some good stuff there.

Completely off topic, I have to ask why anime and manga would deserve there own classes? Manga is a comic, Anime is animation. I never really got why they became their own genres or even their own medium of art, which some seem to believe. Sure there are good ones out there, but they are still comics and animation

On topic, it's really hard to place videogames at the same line as movies or literature. And it's also hard to place movies and literature on the same line. Each medium has their things. Though videogaming is really young as an art form, there are still pieces of art out there.

And while the mainstream of videogaming is not art, it's not meant to be. Games like Call of Duty should be compared to board games or sport, rather than art. Is Transformers meant to be an art film? Is twilight meant to be art (I'll just leave out the meant part here)? They are light stuff just made to pass your time.

 

[RIOgreatescapist]

The latest "artsy" game that came out has to be Heavy Rain which looks like a hollywood interactive production but nevertheless, games like any industry in existence, should be studied and analized in an academical way if people wished to do so.

 

[JEBWrench]

I know there are more meaningful films out there, but compare the age. Games are progressing rapidly, and there are many games out there that one could claim to have sophisticated narratives. Now, in general, that's a whole different story. I always look at the good and derive my views from them.

That's precisely the point I've been trying to make. The medium needs to progress further to be a viable avenue of study, in my opinion.

 

[InconceivableTruth]

double post