Mass Effect 2 - Arrival DLC (contains spoilers)

[Redingold]

Redingold - replay ME1 again. It takes Saren all of 60 seconds to do what he needed to do. Probably less time with no explosions going off around him.

And anyways - so what? He's a Spectre. He invents a lie saying he's doing something important, C-Sec gives him the benefit of a doubt (he is the Council's most famous and revered Spectre afterall) and he accomplishes his mission.

The whole point of being a Spectre is that you're the guy! If anyone is going to be allowed to act outside the rules, it's the Spectre. And Saren has the reputation of being the Spectre-est Spectre.

I still don't think being a Spectre allows you the ability to just walk in to the Council Chambers (Which would surely be the most secure place on the entire Citadel) and screw with the security. After Sovereign turns up, C-Sec would definitely stop giving him the benefit of the doubt and shoot Saren (if they'd even give him the benefit of the doubt anyway. Remember, Pallin hates Spectres).

 

[Redingold]

Then Redingold, I'm glad you passively endorse all my other criticisms.

It's just funny that you say it'll take ages to fly from one ME relay to the next, but the Reapers managed to get from dark space to the Milky Way in less time than "ages."

You don't know why Object Rho was broadcasting intimate Reaper secrets because there wasn't a reason - Bioware used the cheap trick of a countdown to create excitement. Fifty hours was a randomly chosen time amount - no doubt the writers had a meeting to discuss an amount of time that felt "soon" without being "too soon."

This DLC was filled with very cheap and shallow storytelling devices. The lame betrayal, the countdown, the narrow escape, c'mon... Bioware phoned this one in.

Agreed, except we don't know how far away the Reapers were from the galaxy. And they could have been flying for months already.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Mass Effect is a space opera. It isn't meant to have a 100% water tight plot. The Arrival DLC was a bit meh, but the series is still brilliant.

Reminds me of James Bond. So what if certain things don't quite make enough sense, I'm not anal enough to keep digging and see what other plot holes I can find.

 

[Etra488]

Redingold - are you going to make the argument that if Saren appeared in the Council chambers - a place completely open to the public - at a time with little to no foot traffic - knowing that it only takes 1-2 minutes to do what he needs for a fleet of Reaper ships to appear without warning because as you said, there's no such thing as early-detection, that C-Sec security would stop him?

"Oh hey Pallin, fuck off because I'm a Spectre and I'll fuck your shit up. Yea that's right, go away."

I see what you're doing - you're trying to contrive a scenario in which Saren's simple plan could fail, and then you're assuming that such a circumstance would be in place all the time. What you can't do is argue that the actions Saren took in the game - to go chasing after the Mu Relay so he could get to the planet he couldn't have known about so he could use the machine to go to the space station where he already has the right to go to anyway was a better plan.

I'm telling you - it takes Saren no amount of time to do what Sovereign needed him to do. And with Spectre-status, and the speed in which Saren could do it in, no one would have been in a position to stop him.

Shepard's a Spectre and it's not like all the Turians that have a grudge with humanity, such as the Turian Council member, have Shepard followed in the off-chance he does something weird. Shepard has enemies and he isn't obstructed the way you propose Saren would be. Saren, who's a hero to his people and the Council's #1 guy.

*** *** *** ***

Daystar Clarion, I promise you I didn't start with the intention of tearing down Bioware's space opera, it just sort of happened. I enjoyed the game too, but it bothers me when people applaud Bioware's storytelling when their stories don't make sense. And in retrospect, it wouldn't even require serious revisions to repair their plot holes. Bioware publishes polish and presentation - the fans call it good storytelling. They aren't doing anything new or creative - they're just the best at making it pretty.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

edit: Post fail.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Redingold - are you going to make the argument that if Saren appeared in the Council chambers - a place completely open to the public - at a time with little to no foot traffic - knowing that it only takes 1-2 minutes to do what he needs for a fleet of Reaper ships to appear without warning because as you said, there's no such thing as early-detection, that C-Sec security would stop him?

"Oh hey Pallin, fuck off because I'm a Spectre and I'll fuck your shit up. Yea that's right, go away."

I see what you're doing - you're trying to contrive a scenario in which Saren's simple plan could fail, and then you're assuming that such a circumstance would be in place all the time. What you can't do is argue that the actions Saren took in the game - to go chasing after the Mu Relay so he could get to the planet he couldn't have known about so he could use the machine to go to the space station where he already has the right to go to anyway was a better plan.

I'm telling you - it takes Saren no amount of time to do what Sovereign needed him to do. And with Spectre-status, and the speed in which Saren could do it in, no one would have been in a position to stop him.

Shepard's a Spectre and it's not like all the Turians that have a grudge with humanity, such as the Turian Council member, have Shepard followed in the off-chance he does something weird. Shepard has enemies and he isn't obstructed the way you propose Saren would be. Saren, who's a hero to his people and the Council's #1 guy.

*** *** *** ***

Daystar Clarion, I promise you I didn't start with the intention of tearing down Bioware's space opera, it just sort of happened. I enjoyed the game too, but it bothers me when people applaud Bioware's storytelling when their stories don't make sense. And in retrospect, it wouldn't even require serious revisions to repair their plot holes. Bioware publishes polish and presentation - the fans call it good storytelling. They aren't doing anything new or creative - they're just the best at making it pretty.

I agree that there are some things that could've been changed to make more sense.

But just look at Star Wars. The most popular scifi of all time, it's got quite a few plot holes and most people recognise that. But they don't care, because it's still a great story with great characters.

It's easy for me to love Bioware games because they make great characters, the story may be 'lacking', but If I like the characters, then none of that really matters to me.

 

[loremazd]

AndyFromMonday, want me to blow your mind about ME1 canon?

The game only happened at all because Saren and Sovereign acted stupidly about information they couldn't have had. If the Reapers knew about Ilos, they how did the Protheans there survive the purge? The Conduit is just a shortcut from Ilos to the Citadel. Saren is a Council Spectre - he probably has an office on the Citadel. So why didn't he wait until Council wasn't in session, walk in and just do what Sovereign told him to do - activate the Citadel Relay into dark space. There was no reason to go to Eden Prime at all, or go about the business of finding Ilos, the Conduit, or the Mu Relay.

Sovereign knew how to activate the Citadel, he just couldn't do it himself. So he had Saren do it. There was no reason for ME1 to have been a game. That's how doe-eyed people are when talking about Bioware games - these laughable plot holes get completely ignored.

Actually, that would not have worked at all, Saren would have taken control of the station, then he would have been captured before Sovereign could have reached the Citadel, and they'd close the arms and taken him out with the fleet.

The entire point was to warp in a geth army and rush the entire Presidium so that they could maintain control of the citadel. No Ilious, no army, not control, dead Saren.

 

[loremazd]

Redingold - are you going to make the argument that if Saren appeared in the Council chambers - a place completely open to the public - at a time with little to no foot traffic - knowing that it only takes 1-2 minutes to do what he needs for a fleet of Reaper ships to appear without warning because as you said, there's no such thing as early-detection, that C-Sec security would stop him?

"Oh hey Pallin, fuck off because I'm a Spectre and I'll fuck your shit up. Yea that's right, go away."

I see what you're doing - you're trying to contrive a scenario in which Saren's simple plan could fail, and then you're assuming that such a circumstance would be in place all the time. What you can't do is argue that the actions Saren took in the game - to go chasing after the Mu Relay so he could get to the planet he couldn't have known about so he could use the machine to go to the space station where he already has the right to go to anyway was a better plan.

I'm telling you - it takes Saren no amount of time to do what Sovereign needed him to do. And with Spectre-status, and the speed in which Saren could do it in, no one would have been in a position to stop him.

Shepard's a Spectre and it's not like all the Turians that have a grudge with humanity, such as the Turian Council member, have Shepard followed in the off-chance he does something weird. Shepard has enemies and he isn't obstructed the way you propose Saren would be. Saren, who's a hero to his people and the Council's #1 guy.

*** *** *** ***

Daystar Clarion, I promise you I didn't start with the intention of tearing down Bioware's space opera, it just sort of happened. I enjoyed the game too, but it bothers me when people applaud Bioware's storytelling when their stories don't make sense. And in retrospect, it wouldn't even require serious revisions to repair their plot holes. Bioware publishes polish and presentation - the fans call it good storytelling. They aren't doing anything new or creative - they're just the best at making it pretty.

Except Saren didn't send the signal, Saren let Sovereign in the citadel. Apparently Sovereign needed to send the signal.

Pretty easy conclusion to assume Saren couldn't send the signal himself, and that the reaper had to.

 

[Sarkule]

Sort of unrelated. But my shepard was wearing her LBD from the Kasumi DLC, and when Hackett walked in to the med bay, she was sitting there with her legs wide open. Was hilarious

 

[Vet2501]

It's just funny that you say it'll take ages to fly from one ME relay to the next, but the Reapers managed to get from dark space to the Milky Way in less time than "ages."

Maybe I need to go play ME1 again, but I'm pretty sure the Reapers had been awakened and had started travelling just after Sovreign's defeat. If that is the case, then by the time Arrival comes around (and I'm sure that is supposed to be played after the suicide mission, otherwise I would agree that the plot doesn't quite make sense) then the Reapers would have been travelling for 2 years. Shepard just happens to get called in when they are 2 days away.

 

[Etra488]

loremazd, pretend it was a best case scenario.
[ul][li]The Protheans have not sabotaged the Keepers.[/li]
[li]Everything goes as planned.[/li]
[li]From the edge of the galaxy, Sovereign tells Citadel to "do it."[/li]
[li]Citadel activates and the Council races are boned by the sudden Reaper fleet.[/li][/ul]

No, Sovereign didn't have to be there. But he had developed a bit of an ego and wanted to flaunt it off. Chalk this up as another plot hole. He didn't need to be there.

Yes, Saren could have done it on his own, just as surely as the Keepers HAVE BEEN doing it on their own, for however many cycles the Reapers have been using the Keepers to do it.

And yes, Saren could have activated the Citadel without alerting C-Sec or whoever. The Keepers have been able to pull it off without arousing suspicion - Saren is a veteran spy.


And you still haven't answered how either Saren or Sovereign knew about the Conduit in the first place. Before Eden Prime, Saren knew about the Conduit. How? If Sovereign knew about it, then why'd the Reapers let those Protheans escape? Over the course of the 50,000 years of waiting, why didn't Sovereign find the Mu Relay himself?

Liara said it'd take decades to find the relay by conventional means. Sovereign has that time. Instead of hibernating, why didn't Sovereign repair the Keepers?

The Reapers left pieces of their tech scattered about to guide the galaxy in technological development. What if the Krogan had found Citadel station first, instead of the Asari? The Krogan would have fucked it up and in doing so, fucked over the Reapers. What if humanity had found it first? We'd have dismantled it to study the technology - that would have sabotaged the Reaper's plan.

And yes, I can go on. The plot holes abound.

 

[Spitfire]

It's just funny that you say it'll take ages to fly from one ME relay to the next, but the Reapers managed to get from dark space to the Milky Way in less time than "ages."

Maybe I need to go play ME1 again, but I'm pretty sure the Reapers had been awakened and had started travelling just after Sovreign's defeat.

Actually, that happened at the end of Mass Effect 2, and it was after the defeat of Harbinger, not Sovereign.

 

[TwistedEllipses]

I'm not going to argue there aren't plot holes, but this wasn't bad, it just doesn't compare well to lair of the shadow broker (which cost 800 to Arrival's 560 credits)...
...on the plus side: good cinematics, a chance for a bit of stealth, possessing a robot and big boom at end...oh God...this is starting to sound like a description of a Michael Bay film...

 

[Zhukov]

Eh.

For some reason the presence of plot holes doesn't particularly bother me. I do not play Bioware games for the plot.

What does bother me is that it didn't really add anything to the story.
Before Arrival the plot was at the point of: "The Reapers are coming on the next bus to fuck us up."
After Arrival the plot was at the point of: "The Reapers missed their bus. They'll catch the next one and come to fuck us up."

 

[KingofallCosmos]

All plot holes aside, I just thought it underwhelming. They're bridging the gap which is supposed to make waiting for ME3 less agonizing, that's a good piece of fanservice, but with what it is they shouldn't have bothered.

 

[Vet2501]

It's just funny that you say it'll take ages to fly from one ME relay to the next, but the Reapers managed to get from dark space to the Milky Way in less time than "ages."

Maybe I need to go play ME1 again, but I'm pretty sure the Reapers had been awakened and had started travelling just after Sovreign's defeat.

Actually, that happened at the end of Mass Effect 2, and it was after the defeat of Harbinger, not Sovereign.

Realise this is heading into speculation now but, how did Harbinger know to wake up and that the plan had gone wrong if Sovereign didn't contact it before it's defeat? We already know they were awake and having the Collectors capture humans (and kill Shepard) for 2 years before the main events of ME2 (bare in mind Shep was dead for 2 years). Why not start travelling then as well to save time?

 

[Etra488]

Because Bioware's ability to write down what's going on as a narrative has been greatly exaggerated.

If you can't create a credible decision tree, showing the flow of information, then you have no business writing the plot of a business card. If all anyone takes from my words is the realization that Bioware isn't what they're cracked up to be, then I've succeeded.

 

[TilMorrow]

Maybe the reaper's were using the Artifact as a way of messing with the human's and Shepard before they arrived? Also maybe they weren't actually 50 hours away and the reapers' were planning on using the time constrants as a motivator for Shepard to push the button?

Maybe their plan was to use the Artifact:
To further lower the universe's view on Shepard through the death of a large number of one species.
To incapacitate Shepard.
To weaken the Human's influence in the universe.
To remove a potential threat (agent) and use her to their advantage.
To confuse and disorientate the human's and alien's and where they stand in the war.
And
To troll Shepard into destroying an easy to defend position and believing that they were 50 hours away. Easily done due to his reaper fear.

 

[Spitfire]

Maybe the reaper's were using the Artifact as a way of messing with the human's and Shepard before they arrived? Also maybe they weren't actually 50 hours away and the reapers' were planning on using the time constrants as a motivator for Shepard to push the button?

Maybe their plan was to use the Artifact:
To further lower the universe's view on Shepard through the death of a large number of one species.
To incapacitate Shepard.

Right, because despite the fact that humans number in the billions, the Reapers somehow knew that Shepard will be the one there, and at precisely that point in time too.

To weaken the Human's influence in the universe.

On that subject, how would the Reapers even know that humans will be the ones to find the Artifact? It was found in Batarian space. Batarian. Humans ordinarily had no business anywhere near the place.

To remove a potential threat (agent) and use her to their advantage.
To confuse and disorientate the human's and alien's and where they stand in the war.
And
To troll Shepard into destroying an easy to defend position and believing that they were 50 hours away. Easily done due to his reaper fear.

Read above.

 

[Etra488]

You can pull a Mordin Solus and fabricate a theory that fits available evidence, or you can be rational and use your brain.