Mass Effect 3 ending SPOILERS!

[Agayek]

I'm sorry but you touch on two important things. First they are space cthulhus their motives and reasoning are inherently alien to us. I think that they don't see the races as important so much as the preservation of all organic life is. What does it matter if you have to remove these infect bits to save a whole after all. (the infected bits being the bits that can make synthetic life). I don't claim to fully understand how their mind works but their actions make sense in a very twisted sort of way but you have to try and step away from your human modes of thought to really see it.

Even taking into account alien sensibilities, it doesn't make any sense. The Catalyst flat out says "In order to stop synthetic life from killing organics, I created the Reapers to kill organic life". It's a gross self-contradiction and makes absolutely no sense, especially for the kind of galactic-scale genocide they commit. It's a fucking stupid reason, and it's sprung so suddenly, with no build up or hints towards it, that they just can't execute it properly.

Bioware could have pulled it off properly, but it would have required that to be the plan from the beginning, and it rather clearly wasn't. If they had hidden some hints in ME1 and 2 (or even in 3) towards the Reapers having a noble goal, then it probably would have worked, or at least been less jarring.

The fact is though, they didn't. Such a possibility isn't even mentioned until the Catalyst shows up. It's lazy storytelling at its best.

Second I never got that in Mass Effect 2 they said 'we harvest you to make more reapers' no that is just the result of the harvesting. They don't seem to want to make more of themselves of need to, it is just their way of preserving the races that they destroy. They constantly say they are each a nation unto themselves so for all we know everyone who is harvested is consciously still active in these reapers.

Mass effect 3 doesn't contradict anything it just explains stuff in much more plain terms than either of the two games. So stuff seems wrong because you leapt to the wrong conclusions in the first two or made faulty assumptions.

In Mass Effect 2, they are harvesting humans to build a Reaper. It's also shown that Reapers can and do die, as evidenced by the derelict Reaper you get the IFF from.

If that does not imply to you reproduction being at least one reason why the Reapers do their thing, you rather clearly have a faulty grasp on logic and deductive reasoning. There's no reason for them to preserve that which they destroy, especially since its' established very early on that the Reapers have nothing but disdain for organic life. You're making things up, applying it to the Reapers and then saying it all makes sense. If anything, that just proves it doesn't make sense in the first place.

Also:
"We are each a nation. Independent. Free of all weakness. You cannot even grasp the nature of our existence." is Sovereign explaining how much more the Reapers are compared to organics. It's further explained by Legion that the Reapers basically AI gestalts, like the Geth but several orders of magnitude more advanced. Each one is countless individual programs working together. Thus, a nation.

 

[Agayek]

EDIT: I dunno wtf is up this was suppose to be posted earlier in the thread yet some how is way down here. W/E

Look at the timestamp for your post. That's why it's at the end.

 

[synobal]

EDIT: I dunno wtf is up this was suppose to be posted earlier in the thread yet some how is way down here. W/E

Look at the timestamp for your post. That's why it's at the end.

It's baffling.

 

[synobal]

I think one of the biggest problem with the endings, and why they are so unsatisfying, is because they seriously break the rule of "show, don't tell." You have this Guardian come out of nowhere, and tell you that organic life is (for some reason) destined to kill synthetic life. The issue with this is that we've seen through the game that organic life and synthetic life don't necessarily be at odds. They can even co-exist peacefully. In fact, Shepard can actively broker a peace between a synthetic species (Geth) and organics (the Quorian). This is also disregarding the fact that EDI, an AI, never had any conflict with organics, and always tried to help them and "her crew." So, we've SEEN through the game that organics can get along with synthetics, so being TOLD that they must ALWAYS end in conflict and that synthetics are destined to end organic life...well, that rings as false.

What's even worse is that the only synthetics we've seen trying to destroy organics...are the Reapers, and the Geth who follow the Reapers. So once more, being told, "No wait, those guys you've been fighting the whole time...THEY'RE ACTUALLY THE GOOD GUYS! They're trying to SAVE organic life!" Well...that's a pretty hard pill to swallow. The series didn't set up synthetics vs. organics. The series set up Reapers vs. ~everyone who isn't a Reaper!~

Also, it makes me a little uncomfortable that the ending of ME3 just seems to take at face value the fact that synthetics vs. organics is always a thing, will always be a thing (as long as they're not all merged into one big magic being), and that synthetics will ALWAYS wipe out organic life form. I find some unfortunate implications with this. Not only is it stupidly Luddite, but the fact is that a big theme in ME2 is, "do synthetic beings 'count' as lifeforms?" And it comes overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that, "yes, yes they DO count." Legion and EDI are shown to be more than just mere machines. They have feelings. They are a part of Shepard's crew. They fight for Shepard. They fight for organic life.

So, to have the game say, "Yes, these do count as a species," and then have the series say, "And they will ALWAYS take this sort of action NO MATTER WHAT," well...that's just dumb.

I don't understand people who seem to take what the catalyst says as the absolute truth. He is obviously some sort of AI or something that has reached its own flawed logic as to why the reapers must be needed. You can choose to take what he says as the word of god, or you can choose to disbelieve that it is inevitable or you can think there is perhaps some merit to what he says (as evidenced by the geth and quarian wars) and attempt to fix it with synthesis.

Yet everyone who posts about hating the ending seems to take everything the catalysts says as the word of god then shouts 'these are flaws and plot holes and it makes no sense' you see the catalyst is speaking from the perspective of himself and presumably he is responsible for the reapers if not a reaper himself. What he says is bias and not something you should take as literal truth. He isn't god people he is just a machine.

EDIT: I dunno wtf is up this was suppose to be posted earlier in the thread yet some how is way down here. W/E

 

[flipthepool]

First they are space cthulhus their motives and reasoning are inherently alien to us.

But their "motives and reasoning" aren't "inherently alien to us." They are inherently ~stupid~ to us, because there are much more obvious ways of solving the (apparent) problem of "Synthetics will kill all organics!!!!" that aren't "we shall save the organics by killing organics! And then when those organics rise up, we shall kill them! And so on and so on, with massacres every 50,000 years or so on schedule."

For example they could...NOT have the Mass Relays, which apparently ensure that the massacres occur on schedule. Or they could, you know, just kill all of the synthetic life? And then be like, "Hey, how about next time you don't make synthetic life?"

It seems way easier to get rid of a bunch of machines every so often than to have to go tearing through the whole universe to murder everyone every 50,000 years.

Besides, ME2 already did the "inherently alien to us," thing with Legion's mission. Disregarding the "paragon vs. renegade" thing, you can easily make an argument for either side being the "right" side. Because there isn't really a "right" side, as we know it, since the Geth don't operate in the same way that we do. They truly ~are~ alien to us, which makes understanding that they do have free will, and them coming to join in the fight against the Reapers that much more intense and emotionally satisfying.

With the Reapers, I completely follow the logic. But the logic is insane troll logic. It's just stupid, and anyone with five minutes could think of a more actually logical way to do it, and anyone with five seconds could write it so their reasoning works within the context of the story. As it is, we're left with something that doesn't work within the context of the story, and is just plain stupid.

The Reapers have always been dark gods, and you've essentially spent the past two games raging against the heavens. You spit in the gods' faces multiple times, and then, in the last game you go, "Oh, okay, sure. I guess I'll just go with you guys then."

And, having just played ME2, there wasn't anything that seemed to indicate the Reapers were trying to "save" humanity, unless you want to take a really twisted view of the word "saved." It seemed pretty obvious that they were trying to create another Reaper, and I think anything else is just a retcon to fit in with the, "The Reapers are really the good guys trying desperately to save the galaxy from ~itself~!" bullhonky.

Also, any "saving" that involves liquifying people alive, I'm going to be a little suspicious of, just saying. Just like if some crazy dude with a gun decided to "Save me from this sinful Earth!" by murdering me, I'd have a couple objections.

 

[The_Lost_King]

I have some problems with the ending:

1. The ending take no account of Shepard's prior choices, even the huge ones (Genophage, Geth war, etc) instead only showing the last choice's effects. Given how this has THREE games building up to a conclusion, this ambiguity is infuriating

2. I can understand the Crucible annihilating all Reapers locally, but spreading across the entire galaxy?! That's a Deus Ex Machina if I ever saw one.

3. The philosophical undertones placed in the end were not consistent, the undertone of Synthetic life overtaking organic life rings hollow when the Geth and EDI want to work with organics right then. Hell, the choices that can be made by Shepard to mend this divide aren't even addressed!!

4. The post-credit scene with the child and parent is so out of place, it is less intriguing and more confounding. What is the point of it? Or is it some high-brow attempt at saying that 'This game is all a story being told by a parent to a child' and by saying that "most of the details have been lost to time" they can excuse themselves from inconsistencies in their next game?

1. Except those choices still affect those races regardless of if the relays are gone or not.

2. It was stated that the Mass relays use their element zero cores to enact your choice, it is explained in the game. To be a dues Ex Machina it would have no explanation.

3. You also forget they only work together because they have a common threat, once said threat is gone the likelihood of them remaining friends drastically diminishes, nor does it account for future synthetic life.

4. The kid was a defendant of the colony The Normandy survives founded, it existed to show that the crew survived.

1. except for the fact that they are all stranded in the sol system.

2. where was that stated?

3. The geth were helping the quarians rebuild and never wanted to wipe them out.

4. source?

 

[Agayek]

It's baffling.

Considering tonight is the daylight savings swap, that could be the cause. I forgot about it myself, but the timestamps are actually an hour behind my clock, so I think that's what did it.

 

[synobal]

I give up trying to explain the endings to everyone. If you genuinely are interested in considering the endings from a perspective other than the knee jerk 'it didn't end with a slide show about how everyone lived happily ever after' feel free to PM me and we can discuss what possible futures are in store for the mass effect universe.

 

[wicket42]

I give up trying to explain the endings to everyone. If you genuinely are interested in considering the endings from a perspective other than the knee jerk 'it didn't end with a slide show about how everyone lived happily ever after' feel free to PM me and we can discuss what possible futures are in store for the mass effect universe.

Your post indicates you either aren't reading or aren't understanding some of these well thought out and intelligently argued posts!

 

[synobal]

I give up trying to explain the endings to everyone. If you genuinely are interested in considering the endings from a perspective other than the knee jerk 'it didn't end with a slide show about how everyone lived happily ever after' feel free to PM me and we can discuss what possible futures are in store for the mass effect universe.

Your post indicates you either aren't reading or aren't understanding some of these well thought out and intelligently argued posts!

please tell me that is sarcasm, if it isn't I'll simply say I have answered everything anyone brings up some place, I just get tired of saying the same thing over and over. If people are curious as to what I'd say they can just go back and read my past posts in this beast of a thread.

 

[flipthepool]

I give up trying to explain the endings to everyone.

Err...you're not really explaining anything though? You're getting fanwanky with "Well maybe the Guardian was lying and that's why what he says goes completely against the themes of the series," and "Well the Reaper are aliens and so we can never really ~understand~ their motives!" Despite the fact that yes, we do understand them, we just think they're obviously and hilarious stupid.

The fact that you boil everyone who has a legitimate problem with the story down to, "U just mad cuz u didn't get a happy ending!!!" Is just disingenuous, silly, and obviously untrue.

 

[synobal]

I give up trying to explain the endings to everyone.

Err...you're not really explaining anything though? You're getting fanwanky with "Well maybe the Guardian was lying and that's why what he says goes completely against the themes of the series," and "Well the Reaper are aliens and so we can never really ~understand~ their motives!" Despite the fact that yes, we do understand them, we just think they're obviously and hilarious stupid.

The fact that you boil everyone who has a legitimate problem with the story down to, "U just mad cuz u didn't get a happy ending!!!" Is just disingenuous, silly, and obviously untrue.

You sir are absolutely right your analysis of my arguments are entirely 100% correct, excuse me while I go away in shame.

 

[flipthepool]

You sir are absolutely right your analysis of my arguments are entirely 100% true, excuse me while I go away in shame.

I thought you were done arguing?

So. You know, unless you're going to start agreeing with everyone there's...not really much point in you continuing to post.

 

[scorptatious]

I've just beaten ME3 about an hour ago. Fantastic game in my opinion, a little buggy from my experience sure, but otherwise, still great.

I'll admit, I certainly wasn't expecting the direction the ending took. The big decision at the end certainly made me think for a few minutes. But ultimately, I chose to destroy the Reapers and all their technology.

From what I see, by doing this, organic life has a chance to start over. Perhaps the survivors will pass on what they have learned to their children and this whole Reaper business won't happen again. Who knows, perhaps the Catalyst will be wrong.

I do kind of wonder what would have happened if I decided to control the Reapers though... Would things have been any better? Would the Reapers have stayed under control for long?

I don't know. I'm still taking this all in. I would have preferred a happier ending, but considering the odds stacked against Shepard, something like what happened in the ending was more than likely going to happen. Maybe things would turn out better if I got all the war assets?

captcha: "little bird told me"

What did the little bird tell you captcha?

 

[easternflame]

what about harbringer, he was pretty important, we didn't even get the chance to meet him.

Harbinger was the big reaper with 4 eyes and 4 lasers that was shooting at you while you were running to the citadel beam on Earth. But that's about it.

I know, that's exactly my point, we didn't meet him. I was really excited to talk to him once more. Maybe get some answers or just tell him how badass I was. Nothing.

 

[Zeetchmen]

This Hitler reacts vid sums it all up very well.

 

[synobal]

You sir are absolutely right your analysis of my arguments are entirely 100% true, excuse me while I go away in shame.

I thought you were done arguing?

So. You know, unless you're going to start agreeing with everyone there's...not really much point in you continuing to post.

Indeed, you sir are right again. You should really start a news letter or something so I can subscribe to it.

 

[Ifrit7th]

Look if you like the ending, feel free to disagree, but don't act like the ending we got 'went over the heads' of those of us who have a legitimate complaint. We didn't expect sunshine and roses, we just wanted some more closure on the setting as it is now. Smugness and sarcasm just hurt your argument more then they help.

 

[flipthepool]

Indeed, you sir are right again. You should really start a news letter or something so I can subscribe to it.

This is embarrassing. Please, don't feel like you need to stick around for little ol' me. How about you "explain" the endings to everyone again? You know, for old times' sake. I could use a laugh.

 

[AlternatePFG]

Loved the game from start to finish, but I'd be lying if I said that the ending wasn't a kick in the balls. I don't mind the downer nature of it all (Shepard doesn't have to survive, and I don't think he should unless you get a large amount of war assets) but the really problem is that none of your choices vary the endings much at all, and there is no proper epilogue. Same problem Fallout 3 had, that in my opinion, Broken Steel didn't fix. There was no closure. It doesn't even have to even be in motion, a slideshow epilogue like Fallout: New Vegas or Dragon Age: Origins would be fine.

Not to mention the continuity issues with your two squadmembers suddenly appearing on the Normandy even though they presumably were left behind in the final charge or possibly vaporized.

It's a shame too, because the segment preceding it was great. I could get over the Illusive Man and Kei Lang stupidity, and up until the point after Anderson died, I was really into it. I'm not even that great of a fan of the series, but the way they tied everything up was terrible.

Only other game that has that bad an ending in recent memory would be Neverwinter Nights 2, but that didn't have a whole trilogies worth of story to squander.

Least the multiplayer is fun enough to keep me coming back to it. Don't think I really want to make another run through the single player anytime soon.