Mass Effect 3, Indoctrination theory (new and extended)

[worldruler8]

Basically it means that the ending should be self contained and wrap up any lingering plot points that remain. You should not need a video that is longer than the actual ending of the story to explain what happens in the ending of the story. The exception to this rule is if you are setting up a sequel...which considering that ME3 was supposed to be the conclusion of the story arch, is not the case here hence the extreme levels of fail.

people have spent countless hours analysing and disucssing all kinds of works..taking longer than the actual work itself I hardly see the problem

besides I think "IT" works on the Idea the ending is still unfinished

I think his point was more about analyzing to make sense of something to find out what really happened, versus analyzing something to find hidden meanings. But really, ME3 isn't like a Dadaist painting or anything, it was very clear on what happened on everything but the ending. So I highly doubt that the IT theory is what they intended. And I'll admit that "Dream_Foliage" thing was good tangible evidence. Just realize the names of the cutscenes were also "Red/Blue/Green_London", so take that with a grain of salt the size of Texas.

 

[DarthSka]

Wow, that guy really did the research. I knew a lot of this stuff already, but there were some new ones I had no idea about. Dream foliage, now that is just a little too obvious to deny.

 

[Vault101]

Wow, that guy really did the research. I knew a lot of this stuff already, but there were some new ones I had no idea about. Dream foliage, now that is just a little too obvious to deny.

Everything in the video makes logical sense, but it can all be written off by incompetence on Bioware's part. The texture file named "dream foliage" is however the first piece of objective evidence which does imply that the ending may not be the in-game reality. I think Bioware should just go ahead and delve into the IT head first..it would be awesome and hilarious all at once.

even without indoctrination theory perhaps the intention was to make "make it a dream...or is it?" perhaps they didnt intend it to be taken at face vaule...but more "if we throw all this nonsensical shit together its deep! and its art!"

so what Im saying is it could have been possible to both have parts of the ending as a dream (or is it?) and stil be stupid and nonsensial

 

[fireaura08]

I don't know, even the ending they were "supposed" to go with, the dark matter ending, doesn't make any sense.

Let's just chalk it up to "videogame endings suck".

can you explain the original endings for me? what were they supposed to be?

Originally, the Reapers were supposed to be harvesting all organic life in the galaxy in an effort to create more Reapers to keep dark matter from destroying everything (foreshadowed heavily with Haestrom's sun in ME2). The final decision would force Shepard to either sacrifice all of humanity to create another Reaper to fight the dark matter, or to screw the Reapers and fight the dark matter on their own.

Honestly, this is such a good ending, much better then any of that Crucible bullshit. I think it was ditched because it got leaked all over the internet.

(not sure if this has been answered yet, but if not enjoy)

 

[Tono Makt]

Goddammit. I don't have 85 min to spend watching this. Razzum frazzum, can't we just drop this already? No matter how you slice it, Hudson Hawked the ending. Indoctrination, ReaperGodCitadelCrucibleChild, SpaceMagic, whatever. There was a potential for greatness that was hinted at, played at, pointed to and dressed in a frilly pink tutu before it was substituted for Rosie O'Donnell in a g-string bikini and a merkin. (if you need to google it, DON'T.)

Bioware isn't going to use the Indoctrination theory. They can't; they did what most public figures do these days when confronted with their own incompetence - they doubled down. To allow for this theory to be used, they would have to admit that they made a mistake with the current ending, which they can't do. They've called it "art". Dozens of games pundits (Okay, maybe dozens is a bit hyperbolic. Frydude doesn't count as more than three.) jumped on the "art" bandwagon. Thousands of fans jumped on the "art" bandwagon - hundreds of them were actually sincere about it too. It's called "art" because you can't make a mistake with art; there is no right and wrong to art. There is simply interpretation.

So to go back and so radically change the ending is to admit that the ending is not "art" after all. That isn't an option, even if they wanted to, since all those pundits (maybe two dozen. including Rob Tostitogarcon.) would have to find some way to justify their reaction and defense of the ending now that it's not "art" anymore. And since those same pundits would need to find a way to reclaim lost credibility, they would end up attacking Bioware for caving to the demands of the unwashed, uneducated masses who can't appreciate art. Which they already are doing to some degree, overthinking their reactions to the way Bioware is giving an extended clarification to the ending of their game.

Now can we please get off the topic of the indoctrination theory? It's a great idea that has no possible way of being used by Bioware, and to make an 85 min video so far after the fact is just overkill... *mutters under his breath, then tries to figure out how he's going to put aside 85 minutes to watch this video anyway*

 

[squid5580]

Umm I could be way off here (and I am not going to watch a 90 minute video on it) but doesn't the very last scene (the one after the credits) invalidate the whole theory?

 

[Vault101]

Umm I could be way off here (and I am not going to watch a 90 minute video on it) but doesn't the very last scene (the one after the credits) invalidate the whole theory?

the "tell us abotut he shepard grandpa" thing?

as I said, I think IT is saying that the ending is still unfinished..shepard is yet to "eake up" and fishing off the reapers for real

 

[Vault101]

anipi>*

No, with Indoctrination theory they dont have to radically change anything...just ass more on (after shepard "wake up")

the fact is without IT the ending taken at face value seems unsalvagable..how the hell could a few cutscenes fix that? a few cutscenes isnt much with at least with IT its doable

I dont know what theyll do but they said they will do somthing..what that somthing is I have no idea

 

[squid5580]

Umm I could be way off here (and I am not going to watch a 90 minute video on it) but doesn't the very last scene (the one after the credits) invalidate the whole theory?

the "tell us abotut he shepard grandpa" thing?

as I said, I think IT is saying that the ending is still unfinished..shepard is yet to "eake up" and fishing off the reapers for real

So that would mean that this story goes from a dream to a fast forward of a distant future then back to where the events of the dream was just that and didn't really happen. Only for something else to happen? And this is supposed to make it better?

I am going to stick with the Grampa theory. He was telling a story to his grandson the entire series. Some of the details may have been exaggerated (or just wrong) but dammit it is his story and he had to walk 300 miles in blizzards uphill both ways so I can forgive his trangressions.

 

[Vault101]

Umm I could be way off here (and I am not going to watch a 90 minute video on it) but doesn't the very last scene (the one after the credits) invalidate the whole theory?

the "tell us abotut he shepard grandpa" thing?

as I said, I think IT is saying that the ending is still unfinished..shepard is yet to "eake up" and fishing off the reapers for real

So that would mean that this story goes from a dream to a fast forward of a distant future then back to where the events of the dream was just that and didn't really happen. Only for something else to happen? And this is supposed to make it better?

I am going to stick with the Grampa theory. He was telling a story to his grandson the entire series. Some of the details may have been exaggerated (or just wrong) but dammit it is his story and he had to walk 300 miles in blizzards uphill both ways so I can forgive his trangressions.

from what we can tell granpa is telling this story a long time in the future, and its so vauge that it does really affect anything

like I said from the moment shepard gets hit by the beam (to the moment he/she wakes up at the end of destructin) we could assume he/she is really lying where he/she fell in this reaper-fever dream..whats going on during that time or after we don't know...

WHATEVER happens...face vaule or not many many years in the future grandpa is telling little billy about how shepard defeated the reapers

so we know WAHTEVER happned shepard defeated the reapers, but thats beside the point

the point is no one gives a shit abotu grandpa buzz aldrin and little billy because WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT HEPPNED TO SHEPARD AND ALL HIS/HER FREINDS....and as I said, they are too far in the future to be worth worrying about

 

[pure.Wasted]

If it turns out to be true, then it just proves that Bioware really are the masters of storytelling and really know how to turn around a tough situation like having all their work viciously scrutinized by their fans and after setbacks like all the leaks they had during production.

I respectfully disagree.

A story's conclusion must fit stylistically with the rest of its contents. Mass Effect is known neither for its plot twists nor for its subtlety. Combining these two concepts, alien to the series, at the very last second to change everything we know is not mastery at all, even if it is deliberate; it is disingenuous and incoherent.

 

[Vault101]

snip
.

says who?

isnt that the point of a twist? it has to be unexpected

I think it would be mindblowing..and it would fit perfectly

thats the Idea..indoctrination is not somthing your aware of it..its subtle and gradual...the closest thing would be the major twist of Bioshock...its that "breaking the fourth wall" type twist, itd alwyas been a mojor thing int he series..who are we to think shepard is imune? shepards good but not that good

if you think abut it indoctrination is one of the biggest weopons used by the reapers, it would make sense that it would be somthing for shepard to overcome...granted its a bit underhanded since the player probably has no way of knowing, and if they did "defeat" indoctrination (choosing destructing) it would have been unintentional...but then thats the beuty of it..to "break free" is to do somthing out of charachter (if your playing paragon) to look at the reaper starchild and think "fuck you and your fucking choices"...in fact up untill this point being renegade has been a handicap...but being renegade may be ones saving grace..(if were assuming its true)

 

[Avalanche91]

Lets just wait for the extended dlc and see that Bioware completly dropped the ball, and we are entitled whining fans for not understanding. Can't wait to see how that turns out.

Part of me thinks Bioware actually purposely hid hints toward Shepard's indoctrination, even if they didn't go with that ending. Maybe it was the original plan.

 

[squid5580]

Umm I could be way off here (and I am not going to watch a 90 minute video on it) but doesn't the very last scene (the one after the credits) invalidate the whole theory?

the "tell us abotut he shepard grandpa" thing?

as I said, I think IT is saying that the ending is still unfinished..shepard is yet to "eake up" and fishing off the reapers for real

So that would mean that this story goes from a dream to a fast forward of a distant future then back to where the events of the dream was just that and didn't really happen. Only for something else to happen? And this is supposed to make it better?

I am going to stick with the Grampa theory. He was telling a story to his grandson the entire series. Some of the details may have been exaggerated (or just wrong) but dammit it is his story and he had to walk 300 miles in blizzards uphill both ways so I can forgive his trangressions.

from what we can tell granpa is telling this story a long time in the future, and its so vauge that it does really affect anything

like I said from the moment shepard gets hit by the beam (to the moment he/she wakes up at the end of destructin) we could assume he/she is really lying where he/she fell in this reaper-fever dream..whats going on during that time or after we don't know...

WHATEVER happens...face vaule or not many many years in the future grandpa is telling little billy about how shepard defeated the reapers

so we know WAHTEVER happned shepard defeated the reapers, but thats beside the point

the point is no one gives a shit abotu grandpa buzz aldrin and little billy because WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT HEPPNED TO SHEPARD AND ALL HIS/HER FREINDS....and as I said, they are too far in the future to be worth worrying about

But that is the point. Mass Effect is Grampa's story. No one knows or even should know what happened there. Shepard is long dead. No one who survived was there. There is no one who can historically document what happened between the beam to the end. And that 1 scene seals it. We don't know what happened. We will never know what really happened. We can speculate on if he/she was indoctrinated or if he/she met with flying watermelons that make fish noises who helped defeat the reapers. But we can't say for sure one way or the other. It is left up to us the audience to draw their own conclusions.

The lack of any story about the survivors is what disappointed me with the ending.

 

[pure.Wasted]

isnt that the point of a twist? it has to be unexpected

Unexpected, yes. Random [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShockingSwerve], no.

Good plot twists are not made out of magic, they are made out of meticulous foreshadowing [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Foreshadowing], Chekhov's guns [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovsGun], stylistic, and thematic unity.

There has been no legitimate, unquestionable foreshadowing of Shepard's mind being tampered with. Nothing "went off" during the ending. We weren't reminded of that one time Shepard spent 5 seconds next to a Reaper alone, where the Reaper was able to gain control of him. The entire world of Mass Effect outside of that one room stopped existing.

I think it would be mindblowing..and it would fit perfectly

It would not be "mindblowing" because Mass Effect did not set itself up for that kind of ending. People watching The Sixth Sense understood full well that something strane was going on, they simply did not understand what. NOBODY played Mass Effect thinking "something weird's going on, I can't quite put my finger on it." You cannot just pull these things out of the air, or a huge chunk of your audience is simply not going to appreciate your ending on the terms you like. That's not their fault. You, as a writer, have to prep them. You have to goad them. Manipulate them. Get them exactly where you want them, and then spring the trap.

Stylistically, Mass Effect has no history of (non-emotional) manipualting. The biggest plot twist they've had to date was The Illusive Man turning out to be a bad guy. Surprise!!! Except we knew that from the moment he appeared in ME2. The game knew that we knew that, and gave us the option of telling him just how much we trusted him. In the first scene.

Thematically, Mass Effect is not (and has never been) about how we shouldn't trust our senses, how we never know what's real and what isn't, how our control over reality is slipping daily. These are themes alien to the franchise, paid lip service by SOME resolutions of the Saren Arterius fight, SOME resolutions of the Illusive Man confrontation, and SOME resolutions of the confrontation with Liara's mom. Thassit.

I mean, people say that it's not fair to boil the series' themes down to "organics vs. Geth," but that's a hundred times more legitimate an idea to boil the series down to than anything the Indoctrination Theory might suggest. At least it has actually been, y'know, brought up. Treated as something important.

thats the Idea..indoctrination is not somthing your aware of it..its subtle and gradual...the closest thing would be the major twist of Bioshock...its that "breaking the fourth wall" type twist, itd alwyas been a mojor thing int he series..who are we to think shepard is imune? shepards good but not that good

There is a huge, huge difference. The twist in Bioshock was properly set up. You had Atlas talking to you but never making an appearance, already alluding to his untrustworthy nature if you're familiar with that type of trick in narrative; you had the phrase "would you kindly" coming up over and over, that's a Chekhov's Gun, seemingly innocuous but suddenly gaining obvious meaning once the twist is explained; you had the diaries which for a while before the reveal had begun foreshadowing the technology that made all of this possible, with gradually increasing obviousness. And finally, most importantly, it fit. The game was about control. Ryan wanted everyone to be free, Fontaine did not. So when you fought Ryan, you fought against (a warped notion of) freedom. And the game demonstrated just how un-free you really were.

Mass Effect is not about indoctrination. It's not about losing control of your mental faculties. If it's about anything, it's about the relationships you form with people who stand by your side.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

If it turns out to be true, then it just proves that Bioware really are the masters of storytelling and really know how to turn around a tough situation like having all their work viciously scrutinized by their fans and after setbacks like all the leaks they had during production.

I respectfully disagree.

A story's conclusion must fit stylistically with the rest of its contents. Mass Effect is known neither for its plot twists nor for its subtlety. Combining these two concepts, alien to the series, at the very last second to change everything we know is not mastery at all, even if it is deliberate; it is disingenuous and incoherent.

It's one of those things where we don't really know WHAT their intentions were until we're told. There's so much up in the air right now that any number of theories could be right. So far ALL the antagonists of the game have been Indoctrinated. Saren, the Collectors, and The Illusive Man have had one thing in common, and that's the fact they were Indoctrinated. It's one of the "consistencies" in the series, like punching out al-Jilani.

 

[Vault101]

[snip.

I think many would disagree..saying that IT is bad because "its not set up properly" I think its set up just fine throughout ME3 (the kid in particular)

its not pulled out of thin air...pulling it out of thin air would be having Samus Aran show up to resue shepard because "hey! its the dame universe as metroid all of a sudden!"

I dont see it being about themes or anything, no this is just indoctrination, this is just one challenge shepard must overcome, much like saren and the collectors

and since we are seeing things through shepard perspective then we fight indoctrination through shepard perspective

even if your right no one cares....most people think IT would be really cool and that Bioware should run with it, whats the alternative? we know the ending isnt getting re-worked, its just getting "expanded"

 

[Vault101]

It's one of those things where we don't really know WHAT their intentions were until we're told. There's so much up in the air right now that any number of theories could be right. So far ALL the antagonists of the game have been Indoctrinated. Saren, the Collectors, and The Illusive Man have had one thing in common, and that's the fact they were Indoctrinated. It's one of the "consistencies" in the series, like punching out al-Jilani.

I dont think the Illusive man needed to be indoctrianted...when you remove that cerberus troopers helmet for the first time to find him reaper-fied I was surprised and though "mabye cerberus arnt going to play terroriest after all" but no...still as you said it makes sense for consistancy purpose

 

[pure.Wasted]

If it turns out to be true, then it just proves that Bioware really are the masters of storytelling and really know how to turn around a tough situation like having all their work viciously scrutinized by their fans and after setbacks like all the leaks they had during production.

I respectfully disagree.

A story's conclusion must fit stylistically with the rest of its contents. Mass Effect is known neither for its plot twists nor for its subtlety. Combining these two concepts, alien to the series, at the very last second to change everything we know is not mastery at all, even if it is deliberate; it is disingenuous and incoherent.

It's one of those things where we don't really know WHAT their intentions were until we're told. There's so much up in the air right now that any number of theories could be right. So far ALL the antagonists of the game have been Indoctrinated. Saren, the Collectors, and The Illusive Man have had one thing in common, and that's the fact they were Indoctrinated. It's one of the "consistencies" in the series, like punching out al-Jilani.

The problem is, we know (with variable specificity) how Saren, the Collectors, and The Illusive Man were indoctrinated. It's not a mystery. They all physically came in contact with the Reapers' shells.

Shepard had no such unique opportunity. Every time that Shepard spoke with a Reaper, someone else was with him, and they should be indoctrinated too. In ME1 he had two squadmates with him on Virmire. In ME2 he had two squadmates with him when he retrieved the IFF and when he fought the human Reaper, and the entire ship was exposed to the IFF when it was brought aboard.

I'm not saying it's physically impossible for Bioware to up and say that Sovereign could have gone after all three but FOCUSED on Shepard, maybe to... make sure it stuck. Or maybe because the others didn't matter. Or that the Reapers have new ways of indoctrinating people that we've never even heard of, and they used one of these on Shepard! Off-camera, no less! Between ME1 and ME2. Whatever. It's all absolutely possible.

What I'm saying is this wouldn't be brilliant storytelling. That should have been self-evident from the fact that when people saw the ending, they didn't say "Oooooh, so much suddenly makes sense, it's like all the pieces just fell into place." If it had been a masterful twist, the majority would be saying that.

When's the last time someone said they didn't "get" the Bioshock twist? That was a competently executed plot twist.

 

[pure.Wasted]

I think many would disagree..saying that IT is bad because "its not set up properly" I think its set up just fine throughout ME3 (the kid in particular)

its not pulled out of thin air...pulling it out of thin air would be having Samus Aran show up to resue shepard because "hey! its the dame universe as metroid all of a sudden!"

I dont see it being about themes or anything, no this is just indoctrination, this is just one challenge shepard must overcome, much like saren and the collectors

and since we are seeing things through shepard perspective then we fight indoctrination through shepard perspective

even if your right no one cares....most people think IT would be really cool and that Bioware should run with it, whats the alternative? we know the ending isnt getting re-worked, its just getting "expanded"

"Most people" think that indoctrination is cool?

I would love to see the polls you have backing this up.