May Daggerdale represents the peak of failure for Action RPGs

[Kaanyr Vhok]

most of what you listed is just crappy licensed titles. again, stop trolling.

And? Much of what you listed like Red Dead, Crackdown, and GTA 4 are more in the open world sub genre. I was talking about the basic copy and paste hak and slash template and I specifically mentioned film games. My overall point was that Action RPGs borrow more from those licensed titles than the handful of decent or good action adventure games. Daggerdale for example plays a lot more like Earagon or the Golden Compass than Red Dead Redemption.

 

[JaceArveduin]

But... I liked playing Dark Alliance I and II...
Ofcourse, I wasn't going into it with the same mind as you guys where either, seeing as I barely knew what DnD was, let alone anything about it.

 

[Mordereth]

Though your qualms with the game may be true, don't generalize about a genre. Or anything ever for that matter.

Why not? Birds fly, shit on cars and eat trash.

The do-do bird went extinct before cars came into existance, humans were actively producing compounded waste commonly referred to as "trash" in the modern sense, and could not fly.

/thread.

 

[Azaraxzealot]

So another member of the "Retro PC Master Race" has their panties in a twist, seems like a common theme on these forums. I like all sorts of games on all sorts of platforms and you don't see me raging up a storm when a bad game that I'm never going to play comes out.

most of what you listed is just crappy licensed titles. again, stop trolling.

And? Much of what you listed like Red Dead, Crackdown, and GTA 4 are more in the open world sub genre. I was talking about the basic copy and paste hak and slash template and I specifically mentioned film games. My overall point was that Action RPGs borrow more from those licensed titles than the handful of decent or good action adventure games. Daggerdale for example plays a lot more like Earagon or the Golden Compass than Red Dead Redemption.

listen to the gigatoast, he speaks sense.

and anyways, of course games copy each other, it's called evolution [http://www.destructoid.com/the-jimquisition-plagiarism--177449.phtml]

don't whine about it, it's how the industry grows.

 

[Kahunaburger]

most of what you listed is just crappy licensed titles. again, stop trolling.

And? Much of what you listed like Red Dead, Crackdown, and GTA 4 are more in the open world sub genre. I was talking about the basic copy and paste hak and slash template and I specifically mentioned film games. My overall point was that Action RPGs borrow more from those licensed titles than the handful of decent or good action adventure games. Daggerdale for example plays a lot more like Earagon or the Golden Compass than Red Dead Redemption.

I think it would be more accurate to say that hack and slash gameplay, in good games and bad games, is adapted from the hack and slash sub-genre.

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

listen to the gigatoast, he speaks sense.

and anyways, of course games copy each other, it's called evolution [http://www.destructoid.com/the-jimquisition-plagiarism--177449.phtml]

don't whine about it, it's how the industry grows.

Gigatost speaks nonsense. I'm a big Forgotten Realms fan. I think I have a right to be pissed when Atari takes my favorite setting and turns it into rushed Torchlight coattail ridding flop that plays like a Pixar cash-in and currently has a metric score in the 40s. http://www.gamerankings.com/xbox360/617222-dungeons-and-dragons-daggerdale/index.html

You know how bad a game has to be to get a metric score in the 40s? lol So he jumps to the conclusion that I am part of the "retro PC master race" (WTF is that). That is beyond good and ignorant. I'll call it like it is. If I was some snobby PC gamer do you think I would be crediting console exclusives like Shenmue, Beyond Good and Evil, and Way of the Samurai as examples of quality action RPGs while bashing Diablo? Thats why I didnt even bother responding to Gigatoast. He didnt read my post. Its one thing to butt heads with DA:O fans. At least that game has some redeeming value. Daggersmack has a metric rating in the 40s. Who defends a game with a metric rating in the 40s?

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

But... I liked playing Dark Alliance I and II...
Ofcourse, I wasn't going into it with the same mind as you guys where either, seeing as I barely knew what DnD was, let alone anything about it.

Did you play the real Baldur's Gate games?

 

[electric method]

I had actually considered buying Daggerdale. I will probably buy Torchlight.

Personally, I think games like Daggerdale and Torchlight should be looked at for what they are: XBLA or PSN arcade offerings. For a $15 price you know, to some degree of certainty, what you are getting/paying for. Compare that to a AAA title that fails to amaze and you are only out 15 bucks compared to 60 or 65.

Further, when I buy or play games like Daggerdale, I go into them knowing what I've bought. Also, I have a pretty reasonable assumption of what the gameplay will be like. That assumption is usually this; some brainless hack-o slash-o fun usually to be had with some friends.

I am not advocating that games like Daggerdale should be given a pass for poor quality, nor judged by a different set of critera than other games. But, in all reality, they are "arcade" titles with shorter development cycles and not so big budgets. These things should be taken into consideration before torching the game and saying it's the downfall of action rpgs.

What would be a more accurate statement is developers seem to milking certain action rpg franchises for all they can. Worse, they usually end up ruining the reputation of their prospective franchises. Prince of Persia is a good example of this. "Sands of Time" was an incredible game. "Warrior within" was decent. The "Two Thrones" was so so. Then came that cell shaded thing and the movie tie in "Forgotten Sands". In each sucessive game the quality became worse and worse.

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

I think it would be more accurate to say that hack and slash gameplay, in good games and bad games, is adapted from the hack and slash sub-genre.

True enough. Like I said earlier even the good action adventure games dont really change the mold. They just dont rely on it. I guess the devs know its such a simple mechanic. Beyond Good and Evil has picture taking, stealth, and story, Way of the Samurai has a ton of roleplaying. Shenmue is the rare example of a game that broke the mold. You could do a lot of other stuff but the fighting itself was off the chart.

 

[Hyper-space]

In BGDA and Diablo that is all you do. I?m not comparing it to RPGs that have choice and consequence, exploration or tactical combat. Those I would say are different games. BGDA is nothing but fighting, stores and stats. It has the exact same pace as Ninja Gaiden or DMC so I cant forgive the fact that the fighting sucks because it calls itself an RPG. The fighting sucked in Bloodlines but that was an RPG first an action/shooter 2nd. BGDA is no more RPG than Ninja Gaiden so I judge it for what it is being walking (adventure) and fighting (action) same with Daggerdale. Daggerdale is a shitty action adventure game with co-op in a setting that I personally love but wouldn?t enjoy in such a base game.

Which is why games like Diablo need rich multiplayer to be viable as party games else they are cheap excuses for action adventure games.

[HEADING=1]Stop[/HEADING]
You are still comparing two different games of two different genres and saying that because one of them doesn't meet your own personal criteria, its not considered a "party game"?...

...what the fuck are you talking about?! are you high? go look up videos on youtube or something of Ninja Gaiden and Diablo, see the difference? well, its because of that difference that YOU DO NOT TRY TO COMPARE THEM WITH EACH OTHER AS THEY BOTH HAVE DIFFERENT MERIT.

 

[StormShaun]

Two Worlds, I still think that is the worst RPG...ever, like beyond the old Superman 64 game, it is worse then that.

 

[II2]

Either do it right(4E ruleset) or don't bother with the license at all.

[HEADING=1]4...... E?????[/HEADING]

FFFFFFFFFFFFF.....Just kidding, you know how some old timey D&D DMs are...

On topic, this game looks very weak/derivative, doing little to leverage either the D&D license or the latent potential for fun in dungeon crawling.

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

You are still comparing two different games of two different genres and saying that because one of them doesn't meet your own personal criteria, its not considered a "party game"?...

...what the fuck are you talking about?! are you high? go look up videos on youtube or something of Ninja Gaiden and Diablo, see the difference? well, its because of that difference that YOU DO NOT TRY TO COMPARE THEM WITH EACH OTHER AS THEY BOTH HAVE DIFFERENT MERIT.

Compare the orginal Diablo on the PS 1. There was a co-op and a nonco-op version. You take away two classes and all you are left with is a game where you walk, fight, and loot. The games look different but they do the same thing. Its just that Ninja Gaiden does the fighting much better. Its like comparing Backbreaker to Madden. You haven't made much of an argument for why they are different. First it was the controls, then it was the physicality, now its because Hyper-space said so.

Ninja Gaiden 3 will have co-op with 8 players (supposedly) So really what is the difference? I personally love fantasy and the look of Diablo but I'm never sold on aesthetics.

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

FFFFFFFFFFFFF.....Just kidding, you know how some old timey D&D DMs are...

On topic, this game looks very weak/derivative, doing little to leverage either the D&D license or the latent potential for fun in dungeon crawling.

I would figure the old timers might like 4e since its the love child of WoW and 1e. Its us 3.5 types that should take issue.

 

[JaceArveduin]

But... I liked playing Dark Alliance I and II...
Ofcourse, I wasn't going into it with the same mind as you guys where either, seeing as I barely knew what DnD was, let alone anything about it.

Did you play the real Baldur's Gate games?

Nope, Dark Alliance I and II are the only forgotten realms I've ever played, though I did try Gauntlet: Seven Sorrows and wasn't too fond of it.

 

[Pointer]

Of course publishers are going to bring back Action RPGs for the new casual market, because the majority of that audience never played that type of game. Its an easy and tested genre that can make the player feel awesome with the action elements that most core players have already gotten used to. This is obvious when you look at the rehashes and reboots of old games. While you can say that it might be a nostalgia fest for some, its really just filling in the new players who never had this background.

 

[Hyper-space]

You are still comparing two different games of two different genres and saying that because one of them doesn't meet your own personal criteria, its not considered a "party game"?...

...what the fuck are you talking about?! are you high? go look up videos on youtube or something of Ninja Gaiden and Diablo, see the difference? well, its because of that difference that YOU DO NOT TRY TO COMPARE THEM WITH EACH OTHER AS THEY BOTH HAVE DIFFERENT MERIT.

Compare the orginal Diablo on the PS 1. There was a co-op and a nonco-op version. You take away two classes and all you are left with is a game where you walk, fight, and loot. The games look different but they do the same thing. Its just that Ninja Gaiden does the fighting much better. Its like comparing Backbreaker to Madden. You haven't made much of an argument for why they are different. First it was the controls, then it was the physicality, now its because Hyper-space said so.

ITS BOTH THE PHYSICALITY AND CONTROLS THAT MAKE IT DIFFERENT, FUCK.

In ninja gaiden there are challenges that test movement skills, such as running along walls and other acrobatic feats, therefore the movements are not controlled by mouse-clicks and restricted to walking only. The same is with the combat, you are not restricted to an isometric-view and the combat requires different method of aiming your attacks than in Diablo. Ninja gaiden, however doesn't have any classes or the abundance of items/spells/abilities that Diablo has, as its not an RPG. Which means that the developers (team ninja) had different goals in mind when making the game, compared to Blizzard.

Now these two key differences (how player agency affects the character and the developers focus) are enough of a difference that comparing these two games is utterly fucking ridiculous. Can't believe i even have to explain something as simple as this to you.

 

[Geno DCLXVI]

So Daggerdale was that bad, huh.

This piques my interest, I love playing bad games just to see how bad they are.

 

[Nikolaz72]

I though Too Human was the peak of failure in all catagories.

Clearly never played Dragon Age 2 then.

There was people who thought Dragon Age 2 was good. Different tastes and all. Only thing Bioware did wrong is make a game for people with different tastes... Which was a sequel to a game for people who didnt have the same tastes as the second game was made for.