Meat eaters should have to kill for their food.

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joshuaayt

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Nov 15, 2009
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That's OK- I don't especially care if you have respect for me. I will freely admit that I both enjoy meat and dislike the idea of killing an animal personally.

Besides, you'd basically have to have a meat eating licence, if you force a test on it- to prove you've done it- which costs unnecessary money, and would just discourage eating meat in the first place, which isn't really a good approach.
 

BarberToad

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Apr 22, 2011
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thaluikhain said:
I can see the logic of that...to an extent.

On the other hand, everybody has killed things, just not for eating. Why is it so different to kill a cow, say, than a, say, a cockroach?
A cockroach can be killed quickly and relatively painlessly, you just need to stamp your feet. And because of its size it can be easily ignored.

A cow? You're entering a world of issues. Already cutting its throat would require a lot of nerve, with looking the poor beast squirming about.
But let's assume you use a gun instead. You'll still need to cut it up and clean it out, and good luck doing this without pouring down an amount of blood most humans nowadays ain't used to see. To sum it up killing it "cleanly" is waaay more technical than killing a bug, and at the end of the day you'll have to remember you'll be eating that cow.


Okay now onto the discussion:

I don't think eating animals is wrong, it's a natural process. What isn't a natural process is battery-farming animals to feed a population that gorges itself on food and leaves an embarrassing amount of waste behind. Christ we are torturing pigs to supply demand for hotdog eating competitions after all. I personally believe we should have meat-based and fish-based meal once a week, and be a veggie for the other 5 days. I'm certain that it's a healthy and fair way of life, although I'm quite aware that convincing people of this would be harder than convince the government to abandon nuclear energy.

I don't think people should kill an animal with their hands, but they should at least be aware of the situation, like watching the videos on meat.org.
 

Triple G

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BanicRhys said:
Not everyone cares about animals as you do, hell, most people don't.

Yeah sure, I don't like it when I hear of people abusing animals for no reason. But I couldn't care less about the feelings of the cow that supplied the roast beef for the sandwich I am currently eating. Animals are dumb, why should I care about animal that isn't even aware of its own existence?


I think Sam Neill knows more than some random person who's too afraid to eat meat.
Awesome post. Totally agree with you on that. nice video btw
 

Sunrider

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Nov 16, 2009
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I'd like to point out that I respect the freedom of choice for someone who is a vegetarian and / or a vegan, even if I don't agree with it.

That said, the respect of a vegan is not exactly in high demand for me. I've seen vegans do a lot of horrible things where I live, for no other reason than "ANIMALS DESERVE TO BE FREE", not knowing what they are doing and, in turn, causing the animals more pain than any of the "industries" that process them would ever do. I can't stand that shit.

Sorry man.
 

wax88

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Sep 10, 2009
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well I've killed my own food before..no biggie..i just choose not to do so most of the time because

a- it's time consuming
b- it's hard to find live animals anyways(probably more expensive too), what with there being no stocks of live animals in supermarkets except for crabs
c- im probably not as skilled as those who have been preping these things for years. not to mention the butcher knife required(ie logistics). dun have one of those at home...

call me cold, but i felt nothing killing the crabs by stabbing them thru their shell boundaries, or smacking a frog against a rock in the head to kill it, then skinning it with a razor-did that in the army as part of jungle survival course. btw, not to be callous, but the kindest thing u can do for it is to make it swift and painless. try to kill it in one try so it doesn't feel the pain.

If anything i say go ahead and tell meat eaters to do that. really though, it's very much over-rated. This is after all part of nature. Even if you eat vegetables you are taking away life as well. Understand that life is not just limited to animals, but also to plants. Either way, because evidently no one is able to photosynthesize, everyone has to kill to survive, unless you subsist ENTIRELY on fruits.

what needs to be had is an understanding of your role in the system, that you have taken another life so that yours can be sustained. And give thanks for the life that was lost so that yours can continue.
 

halfeclipse

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Nov 8, 2008
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Helped raise them, slaughtered, butchered, and cooked them. Both pigs were quite tasty (Happy meat and all that.), even have one of the salamis left.
 

Saltyk

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Sep 12, 2010
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BarberToad said:
I don't think people should kill an animal with their hands, but they should at least be aware of the situation, like watching the videos on meat.org.
I watched a PETA educational propaganda film once. I had gotten it from a concert, where they lied to get people to sign a petition ("Sign the petition and we'll give you this DVD with music videos"). But enough on that.

I was watching it with my friends for about a hour, when we realized that we were hungry. So we ordered a pizza. Meat-lovers. Damn good eating!

Oh, and that thing was full of lies. My favorite was how people killed sheep for the wool. Yeah, that was just funny.
 

SilentCom

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I don't think people should have to kill their own food but I would probably encourage it so people would have a greater appreciation for what comes on their plate.

This is a little hypocritical of me considering I never had to kill my own food. I wouldn't mind having a go if I ever get a chance.
 

TheKwertyeweyoppe

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Jan 1, 2010
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It's funny to see how people are reacting to this.

He's admitted that it's impractical and he isn't saying you should raise the animal yourself.

Also the people who are saying:

"I WILL HAPPILY KILL FOR MY MEAT THEREFORE YOU ARE WRONG AND MY ENEMY!"

Isn't that exactly what he's saying he respects? I read the point of his whole post as:

"I don't like it how people will happily eat mcdonalds but are sickened at the idea of killing an animal."

I agree with his view to a point, I can't remember well but I think on Survivor or something, celebrities were shown their chicken dinner before it was killed and cooked and many just refused to eat it. It was (probabely) going to be killed as humanely as your average chicken burger. That kind of attitude I can't stand.

I don't agree with his scheme but the point he is trying to make is fine. He isn't actually against meat eaters, just ignorance.
soliddensity said:
I would never hunt or kill myself because I'm not a sadistic ba***rd.
I'm sorry to pick on you but are you suggesting that people who hunt for a hobby or work in the meat industry are saddistic bastards? Frankly if I was a bit hungry and there was a wild rabbit I could kill with little effort in a humane way the only reason I wouldn't is because I would then have to prepare it myself and buying's easier (although rabbit killing gets bonus points because they're pests:p).
soliddensity said:
I also hate vegetarians that eat fish, that makes no sense,
Have to agree with that, fish stocks are actually running out. I suppose you're somewhat reddeemed then.

To clarify, I'm a meat-eater myself and I treat vegetarians basically how I treat religious people, I don't agree with them but as long as they cause no harm and don't try to convert me then I'm fine with them.
 

Razzigyrl

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Mar 22, 2011
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Funny, that. I know a significant number of veterinary students and medically-trained folks who are omnivorous. I'm trained as a medical assistant, myself. When you're studying muscular and skeletal systems in-depth, it's difficult NOT to think about the implications of the death that occurred that you're taking advantage of in order to fuel your body. These tissues moved this way, these blood vessels fed this area, the skeletal structure provided support for this lump of meat, so on. These proteins will do this for my body, I'll react a certain way to these fats and carbohydrates entering my system. These amino acids, these nutrients, everything has a function. And I'm an omnivore, myself, because I function better that way.

I know in the edit, the OT mentioned all the 'straw arguments' they've been getting.

Well, why not carry this on to the point of ridiculousness, just to make a point. How about, in order to justify eating, everyone that chooses to eat must take an in-depth medical course including full nutritionist training and human dissection in order to clarify the consequences of eating in regards to the humans affected.

Listen, I can appreciate the effort in trying to get folks to THINK rather than just muddle along. That's actually a beautiful thing, I'm of the opinion that more people need to think more often.

But I'm really, REALLY tired of evangelical vegetarians preaching at me to redeem myself and repent of my critter-killing ways. Sorry, dear. I've given it plenty of thought, and will continue to do so. But you're not preaching to the choir here, you're preaching to the opposition.
 

TheKwertyeweyoppe

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BarberToad said:
I'm quite aware that convincing people of this would be harder than convince the government to abandon nuclear energy.
Just 'cause(2!) I feel like an argument what's wrong with nuclear energy? It's clean, safe(less deaths per kWh than coal by a factor of 4000) and the energy production (cents per kWh) is cheap. Admittedly the plant's very expensive in the first place.
I personally think persuing nuclear is one of the few things the French got right, but I'm biased against France because my teachers tried to teach me the language for three years.
 

BarberToad

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Apr 22, 2011
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Saltyk said:
I watched a PETA educational propaganda film once. I had gotten it from a concert, where they lied to get people to sign a petition ("Sign the petition and we'll give you this DVD with music videos"). But enough on that.

I was watching it with my friends for about a hour, when we realized that we were hungry. So we ordered a pizza. Meat-lovers. Damn good eating!

Oh, and that thing was full of lies. My favorite was how people killed sheep for the wool. Yeah, that was just funny.
Don't know what film you are talking about, so I really can't comment. I will add though that while the videos on meat.org were quite insightful, their suggestions to stop eating meat, milk, eggs or fish are just borderline insane. At this stage why not just cut out the plants too, and feed ourselves on pills?
 

WarBossTilt

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Feb 4, 2009
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would kill a cow in a heartbeat my mate lives on a farm if he said come over and shoot a cow and i will serve it up to you id race right over.
 

Saltyk

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Sep 12, 2010
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BarberToad said:
Saltyk said:
I watched a PETA educational propaganda film once. I had gotten it from a concert, where they lied to get people to sign a petition ("Sign the petition and we'll give you this DVD with music videos"). But enough on that.

I was watching it with my friends for about a hour, when we realized that we were hungry. So we ordered a pizza. Meat-lovers. Damn good eating!

Oh, and that thing was full of lies. My favorite was how people killed sheep for the wool. Yeah, that was just funny.
Don't know what film you are talking about, so I really can't comment. I will add though that while the videos on meat.org were quite insightful, their suggestions to stop eating meat, milk, eggs or fish are just borderline insane. At this stage why not just cut out the plants too, and feed ourselves on pills?
Well, for starters, it was from PETA, so that's immediately a fail right there. It was actually a DVD with a bunch of different videos. Some of them featured celebrities and others featured actual video. Honestly, it was trying to shock people into not eating meat. There was one of a man kicking a chicken/turkey (I won't defend it), of people killing a cow (just an attempt to shock those with weak stomachs), and a few others.

The one I mentioned earlier about people killing sheep for their wool basically claimed that sheep were skinned alive for their wool. It was obviously bogus. First, this was not in any kind of plant, but what looked like a mountain/farm from the third world. And while they were skinning a sheep (I can't remember if it was living or dead, but it was probably alive based on the source), they couldn't have been doing it for the wool. Why? WOOL GROWS BACK! If you kill a sheep for the wool, you are an idiot. You sheer/cut the wool off. This helps the sheep stay cool and you get to use the wool for clothing and such. Then, the wool grows back and you do it again. And like I said, it wasn't an industrial operation.
 

Ambi

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Understanding from experience where meat comes from means next to nothing if it doesn't improve raising and slaughtering methods. At the most it could mean kind of personal gratification or a skill handy for times of poverty. It's good to feel grateful and in awe of nature and the "circle of life" rather than taking things for granted, but I don't care about how people's subtle self-righteous feelings, I care about results.

It's good for people to see important aspects/origins of things to prompt them to really assess their values and decide after careful consideration of a lot of factors. I do think it's pathetic when someone's conscience tells them it's wrong when they're confronted with a whole carcass or the opportunity to kill, but then they immediately stop giving a shit for no good reason as soon as they're removed from the reality of it. It's just mentally weak. I don't think it makes someone who's callous more deserving of meat, however. I don't so much care how they feel, I care about what they do.

As for hunting vs. buying meat, I don't really have the knowledge to say which I should respect more. I don't know which has the worst ecological and economic effect, and I don't know exactly how the average farm animal feels and how slaughter compares to being hunted in terms of fear and pain. The callousness of someone going and shooting or trapping something as it writhes in pain makes me angry, but in actuality I doubt their practices have a worse impact than the indiscriminate consumer who buys factory farm fast food meat.

I have respect for people who care to raise their own animals kindly and slaughter them near painlessly, or people who buy meat that was raised in such a way, although I just leave meat altogether. I think in an ideal world everyone would grow or raise a bit of their own food or buy locally, work less for other people, and buy less stuff. The way things are set up now is not good for health, mentally or physically.

Argol228 said:
It's a proven fact that no meat shrinks the brain. so I never take stock in what vegans say. their brains aren't working to standards.

Also what makes killing an animal different to killing a plant? they are both living things and plants are still alive when you are munching on them.
Seriously?

Monsterfurby said:
Glass Joe the Champ said:
Alright, sorry for the harsh criticism there, I'm not that big on soapbox-ish threads, usually, but I'll try to outline my thoughts on this.

If it were practicable to have an entirely balanced conduct of individuals and stay at our current level of advancement, you would be right. However, what you suggest is also a very archaic view on things. Allow me to explain:
In modern post-nuclear age society, violence has become greatly discredited. This applies to some countries more than others, and the existence of the death penalty, gun laws and the acknowledgement of corporeal punishment as a disciplinary means are indicative of a country's individual stance on this. However, as opposed to centuries ago, when violence was an everyday reality, a person leading a decent life is usually expected to distance themselves from violence.
This is, of course, thanks to the renaissance and enlightment, when humanist views became more commonplace. Without that philosophical revolution, the industrial one would not have been possible.
In consequence, the percentual amount of people involved in acts of physical violence has dropped sharply over the past 200 years. I am, mind you, not talking about crime and war alone here, but about the acceptance of violence in society.
One of the reasons this was possible was division of labor. While before, many families kept and slaughtered animals for their meat, now there were industrial plants doing that for them. People could eat meat without thinking about the animal that died before. And while this may be sad for the life that ended for them to have their food, it removed the notion of common violence from the dinner table. I'm not going to go into family structures here, which of course are the greatest factor for the decline in violence, but not killing things on a weekly basis must have helped. Ask any soldier - killing something is not easy, but the human mind adjusts to that kind of stress eventually.
Of course, the decline of the hunting profession also meant a decline in the civilian use of firearms, which has had a huge impact on Central Europe, especially. The US are a martial society and thus less affected by that.

If one were to introduce, say, a law mandating one to kill at least once before they are allowed to eat meat, I do think that there are two possible outcomes, depending on how you view humanity as a whole:
1) The majority declines to follow and instead relies on vegetarian sustenance. That would lead to severe health issues. Healthy adults are quite able to purchase and consume supplements that allow for a healthy vegetarian diet, but children and the elderly - not so much. There would no doubt be severe consequences for public health.
2) The majority accepts and kill an animal to receive permission to eat meat. This is actually the more interesting consequence, as it assumes that those who eat meat are willing and able to kill something. But that's not the issue. The problem is, there is a barrier that has been erected by education and socialization. We all grow up being taught to value life and not to take it from someone. If I am now forced to take life in order to sustain myself, that means that I have killed, and I will be able to kill again should it become necessary.

In conclusion, I think benefits of society's distance from violence far outweigh the hypocrisy that lies in that behavior. You are right in pointing it out, but even disregarding commercial and practical issues, the sociological problem seems to big to accept.

(My captcha is "think green". Awesome apropos.)
Vegetarianism without supplements does not necessarily cause illness, but the general point you're making about the barrier is good. Children learn better in absolutes, it's easier to teach them to value [all life.
 

BarberToad

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TheKwertyeweyoppe said:
BarberToad said:
I'm quite aware that convincing people of this would be harder than convince the government to abandon nuclear energy.
Just 'cause(2!) I feel like an argument what's wrong with nuclear energy? It's clean, safe(less deaths per kWh than coal by a factor of 4000) and the energy production (cents per kWh) is cheap. Admittedly the plant's very expensive in the first place.
I personally think persuing nuclear is one of the few things the French got right, but I'm biased against France because my teachers tried to teach me the language for three years.
You got me a bit confused there, are we talking about renewable energy or French culture?
When I said nuclear energy I also meant nuclear weapons. And yes, nuclear energy is useful but it's not the solution to the energy problem.
Quite simply, it's god-damn dangerous (Tchernobyl, Fukashima, etc etc) and it certainly is not clean. That nuclear waste just doesn't disappear, you need to put it in barrels and then landfill the barrels, and even then you'll get a leak or two. And we are talking of nuclear waste that would take million of years to finally become harmless, so I hope you've got patience. Nuclear energy isn't the future, but for the moment we are highly dependent on it until we can find a more practical, long term solution to the energy question.

Also, one of my german teachers literally gave me nightmares but that doesn't give me a right to hold something against the germans in general.

If you want to continue this discussion then kindly message me instead, this is a thread about meat-eating after all.

Speaking of which, if you guys haven't seen the meatrix, well, it's a fun little animation spoof on a certain action movie (can't remember which one for some reason.....). Anyways, it's a less traumatising way to learn about factory farms.
 

Triple G

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DarkArk said:
teebeeohh said:
what's it with vegans and their aggressive pseudo-religious attempts to convert people to their way of living?
And what is it with meat-eaters who take it personally when I tell them I'm a vegetarian?

I get what the OP is saying, since I've had the same thought before even if it isn't practical. It's more a result of people becoming separated from food production completely. Factory meat production is a colossal waste of resources, and is the leading cause of greenhouse gas emissions.

Also the ignorance of vegetarianism in this thread is hilarious. You really don't have to put much thought into it.
As is your half-assed way of defending vegetarians. If factory meat was a huge waste, it wouldn't be this cheap.
 

Stalydan

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sravankb said:
Yeah, this is an obviously flawed argument, but to my other fellow Escapists, please remember that not all vegetarians / vegans are like this. Don't judge the many because of the actions of a few.
Oh no, I know many vegetarians (not so many vegans though) that just don't like the taste of meat or just don't like the thought of eating animals themselves.

I think eating meat is natural. It provides many nutrients the human body relies on and we've been doing it for thousands of years. I really don't support these thoughts that just because we've built "a civilised society" that we should give up eating animal products.

Besides... bacon is just too nice...