Mentally Ill Teenage Girl Dies From Suffocation During Exorcism

[Trivea]

If i ever needed an exorcism, it had better be from a soul reaper, at least getting your ass handed to you as a hollow is dignified.

^This.

OT: Sure, I believe in demons and I believe in exorcisms. Most of the people here who "don't believe in demons" say that because they've never actually seen one, but as a member of the New Age movement, I'm not going to deny that I do believe. I mean, I'm sure most of the points have already been made, but I can't help rolling my eyes at all of the people who say "there can be no demons or possessions because SCIENCE EXISTS". What sort of an excuse is that? Most credible scientists I know of say that it's impossible prove a negative (beyond the Law of Non-Contradiction, of course), so...

However, putting aside what I feel about demons and exorcism, these two men were complete and total idiots. Trying to exorcise something without using an exorcism ritual... really?

 

[lacktheknack]

Exorcism is real, but it can be hard from distincting a demonic possession from mental illness sometimes. We are only human after all.

yea...no its not real sorry

Because you've never seen one, right?

no because the idea of a demon possessing someones body is completely RETARDED also why do demons only posses people that live in a family THAT BELIEVES IN DEMONS

You don't believe it, thus it's retarded? It's a pretty longstanding belief that's extremely widespread (often appearing simultaneously out of places that had no contact without the help of the other), plus, many people claim to have witnessed possession/exorcism. Clearly they're ALL lying/mistaken, because that would interfere with your precious preconceptions. Also, who says they only affect families who believe? Maybe previous skeptics believe in demons because family members get possessed.

"But it doesn't happen in Western society!"

Actually, it sometimes does. See: Ouija board mishaps, Bloody Mary mishaps, demonic summonings gone horribly right, non-demonic summonings gone horribly wrong, etc. You know, stuff you refuse to believe happens. Not wide-spread enough for you? Well, why would demonic forces need to show their wrath when a giant wave of anti-theism, partly caused by a lack of demonic action, is doing a better number on religion than they ever could?

Should I just start a dedicated exorcism thread? XD

Meh, it's what this thread has already turned into.

Its not believed because it is not fucking real.


Show beyond the shadow of a doubt a case of supposed "possession" that can not be explained by a severe mental or biological disturbance (or some combination thereof) or some other "demon"-related event that wasn't spirited away before objective scientists could get their hands on it for study.

Its not the anti-theists or the supposed lack of "activity" doing away with the belief - its the crushing lack of any evidence or proof that these things actually occur and aren't just an elaborate hoax or trick.

And even if demons do exist I'm sure these guys will have it covered.

snip

I can't provide you any proof, I'm some random guy on the internet. Anything I post will be sloughed off as a hoax.

I've read a few books (I've forgotten which ones, D that indicate that middle-eastern Africa is a hotbed for demonic activity, but I can't prove this as I've never been to Africa (and don't wish to go).

I have a friend who messed with an Ouija board at a party and woke up the next day feeling like she hadn't slept at all, and the friend she was sleeping in the house with said she had woken up to see my friend leering down at her with her eyes rolled back in her head, and when she screamed, my friend simply left. Of course, you won't believe this either.

You can read my half-convo above with Rin Little, where she mentions a "shell" quality about the person and an enormous burst of strength (you know, classic possession signs), as well as a SUCCESSFUL exorcism thereof, but of course, that's pure unadulterated BS, because you didn't see it yourself.

What do you want me to do, break into your house with an Ouija board, some tarot cards and a dead goat?

There's a line between skepticism and fanatical denial, and a significant percentage (the lion's share, really) of the Escapist's users solidly hit the "fanatical denial" section. You doubt the stories? Fine. You think they're all lies? Close minded, but OK then. You shove your opinion that "IT'S NOT FUCKING REAL" at me, and/or think all believers of the phenomena are inherently dumber? Good job, you're far more fanatical than they'll ever be.

You believe that an oogly-boogly spirit me-bob-er can somehow possess a rational, functional human being and make them act against their will with no solid evidence or proof in the last forever to support anything you say. Yes, we're going to shove it in your face. Just it used to be shoved in our faces before we had the power to fight back.

Religion, particularly Christianity and its ilk, and all its nonsense is a relic of an ignorant time before humanity possessed the knowledge and will to understand and examine the world around them, and from a time when the most effective way to control a society was to threaten people with these unknowns. And while some religions tend to be a little more innocuous than others, I'll be damned if I'm going to let something like this exorcism bullshit get away as anything other than murder or manslaughter.

Yeah, you show us! Prove how much better you are than me by... imitating my... jerkass ancestor...? Whatever makes you feel better, I suppose.

Also, I also decry horrifying and abusive exorcisms such as this, the father and monk ought to be jailed. I never implied otherwise.

 

[WeAreStevo]

This.....there are no words.

I cannot believe some people >_<

 

[ShadowsofHope]

You don't believe it, thus it's retarded? It's a pretty longstanding belief that's extremely widespread (often appearing simultaneously out of places that had no contact without the help of the other), plus, many people claim to have witnessed possession/exorcism. Clearly they're ALL lying/mistaken, because that would interfere with your precious preconceptions. Also, who says they only affect families who believe? Maybe previous skeptics believe in demons because family members get possessed.

A belief isn't made more true by how long and how widespread it's managed to become in the world. A belief is made more true by the evidence it is has, including both empirical evidence that can be repeated and observed, as well as eyewitness testimony. Simply having several dozen people "claim" they have seen a legitimate exorcism that they can never replicate for an outside audience is about as useful towards proving your case as is relying solely on witness testimony during a murder trial in court. The mind is proven to be very ineffectual when recollecting events they have witnessed when personal and collective biases enter the picture (claiming to have seen a legitimate exorcism, and describing it in some detail gets you media attention as well as your church organization; the confirmation bias from your church community agreeing with you, despite if they have ever personally seen the same event or not) as the human memory is subject to various subjective changes over the course of even just a day (both external and internal) that makes even the smallest shift in information within those recollections seem like it's always been there.

Actually, it sometimes does. See: Ouija board mishaps, Bloody Mary mishaps, demonic summonings gone horribly right, non-demonic summonings gone horribly wrong, etc. You know, stuff you refuse to believe happens. Not wide-spread enough for you? Well, why would demonic forces need to show their wrath when a giant wave of anti-theism, partly caused by a lack of demonic action, is doing a better number on religion than they ever could?

None of those events have actually happened outside of a very enclosed situation (or at least, never been proven beyond a reasonable doubt), in which any independent observer is rendered incapable of actually confirming these people saw what they did. The mind, under fear or duress loves to play tricks upon the sight of the beholder no less, which is where we get phenomenon such as night terrors or the majority of ghost sightings (seriously, look this up at some point, it's very easily explainable without resorting to self-confirmed religious belief's to explain it for you), no less.

You are looking at these events through the eyes of a Christian whom believes in such things, seemingly beyond a doubt. It's a case of self-confirmation bias at the very best: you see an article about someone whom has witnessed a demonic possession, or someone whom has claimed to witness "weird shit" after fiddling with an Ouija Board in the middle of the night and give these apparent "first hand eyewitness accounts" the benefit of the doubt automatically due to the fact that these articles do nothing if not confirm your belief (through faith) in the existence of these external forces, in which even they themselves tend to be real to you by nothing more than placing the trust of the benefit of the doubt in books that mention them while claiming universal truth. Without tangible evidence actually put forwards, that is.

You have no more evidence for demonic possessions and real exorcisms (that produce results not stained by confirmation bias) than people whom form alien abduction societies do for apparent alien abductions and returns to Earth. You just happen to have a bigger community in which to reap self-validation of your held belief's without much reprieve or overt skepticism than they do, in the end. Of course, that's not a new thing to the world, no less. The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Roman's and the more obscure Pagan tribes all had the same situation - they just lacked the massive, and relatively easily accessible media presence that connects our global community today.

 

[Angry Camel]

Being a Christian, I do believe demonic possesion can happen. But when we live in an age where we can diagnose and treat mental illness (to varying degrees), this really shouldn't have happened. It's stunning to see how many religious people ignore God-given common sense. Just reading the story, something sounds a bit iffy.

 

[Agayek]

Oh my that image is wrong on several levels...

First of all, I feel that I should point out that the Roman Empire was quite thoroughly Christian before it collapsed and obviously Christianity was the top European religion from the Renaissance onwards. So specifically singling out a technological low-point and labelling it as being especially Christian seems quite ridiculous.

Secondly, it's debatable whether the 'Dark Ages' really were a technological low point. Look at cathedrals and trebuchets for example, these constructions show an incredible understanding of engineering and mathematics.

Thirdly, there were places other than Europe during the Middle Ages, and they weren't rushing ahead with unstoppable technological advances. Aborigines, Muslims, Africans, Native Americans, Aztecs, Eastern Asians, none of these groups were having amazing golden ages of science and industry without Christianity. Indeed, of all these groups the Muslims were probably doing the best with their own organised religion.

I realise that there was more to your post than this image, but I didn't really have a problem with what you said with the rest of it. I just felt that I should correct the incredibly flawed logic being displayed in that picture.

Obviously the image is not wholly accurate. It's a hyperbolic symbol that sums up the generality of my point without going into horrendous specifics.

The actual damage to human advancement during the Dark Ages was the black death. Many, if not most, people were convinced it was some kind of supernatural punishment, and they reacted the only way they knew how: reject anything and everything new. It's just both easier and only slightly less correct to finger the Church as the cause. Plus, it makes for a much less pithy statement to have to explain every step of it.

Also, there were some rather impressive advancements being made outside of Europe at the time. Asia and the Middle East were making massive strides forward. The Muslims at the time were the most advanced culture in the world, by far. There's a lot of room for debate on the issue, but one of the primary causes of that is that Islam was a new religion. It didn't have any tradition, doctrine, or dogma to really enforce. The "newness" of it encouraged innovation and discovery, culturally. People had to figure out how their spirituality and religion fit into the scheme of the things, and this mindset helped foster scientific advancement.

Then tradition and dogma was established and it all went to hell.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/teenager-died-from-%E2%80%98suffocation%E2%80%99-in-exorcism.html

My only comment:

Those idiots murdered a thirteen year old girl. Tortured and murdered, to be exact. They are scum.

 

[Agayek]

OT: Sure, I believe in demons and I believe in exorcisms. Most of the people here who "don't believe in demons" say that because they've never actually seen one, but as a member of the New Age movement, I'm not going to deny that I do believe. I mean, I'm sure most of the points have already been made, but I can't help rolling my eyes at all of the people who say "there can be no demons or possessions because SCIENCE EXISTS". What sort of an excuse is that? Most credible scientists I know of say that it's impossible prove a negative (beyond the Law of Non-Contradiction, of course), so...

However, putting aside what I feel about demons and exorcism, these two men were complete and total idiots. Trying to exorcise something without using an exorcism ritual... really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

It's wholly possible to prove a negative. Every proof in existence has a corresponding negative proof. For example, if I can prove I am real, then I can also prove I am not imaginary. From a purely logical perspective, you can prove anything.

The problem we face with the supernatural is that it is, by nature, unknowable. The mere existence of evidence proves it to be untrue. As such, we can't settle the debate. That's really the only reason the beliefs continue to exist. It's impossible to discount them, by their very nature.

 

[Fbuh]

The Vatican has an entire sect dedicated to ousting demonic possessions, though I am not Catholic, so I could really care less what the Vatican does.

Truthfully, there are unexplained things in the world, and I think that anybody who says that something is not real must know everything there is to know.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Another one of my friends has actually studied and done other exorcisms and he managed to get everything under control. Can't tell you how he did it though because I was mostly trying to keep my friend from lashing out at anyone. It took about six of us to hold her down and she's tiny and really skinny.

Holy crow. I've read of "classic" possessions, but I didn't think they really happened outside of tribal Africa. How did it happen? Do you believe that Ouija boards can channel the dead/demonic?

You realize that this conversation is going to piss off everyone who reads it, right?

The Ouija Board? Sigh.....
Ghosts aren't leading the letter thing. You are just guiding it to the answer that you want.
Fun test that has been done:
they blind fold the people participating and flip the board when the testees weren't looking. The result? The ghosts suddenly couldn't say anything.

 

[Cain_Zeros]

If the ritual is actually meant for wishes, then shouldn't he have been under it wishing for the "evil spirit" to leave his daughter? At least that would've been disregarding modern medicine in favour of something that's actually part of his religion.

 

[Dr. Pepper Unlimited]

They didn't perform an exorcism. They performed murder. Torture and murder to be exact. Good job, folks. Good job...

 

[Jonluw]

Another one of my friends has actually studied and done other exorcisms and he managed to get everything under control. Can't tell you how he did it though because I was mostly trying to keep my friend from lashing out at anyone. It took about six of us to hold her down and she's tiny and really skinny.

Holy crow. I've read of "classic" possessions, but I didn't think they really happened outside of tribal Africa. How did it happen? Do you believe that Ouija boards can channel the dead/demonic?

You realize that this conversation is going to piss off everyone who reads it, right?

The Ouija Board? Sigh.....
Ghosts aren't leading the letter thing. You are just guiding it to the answer that you want.
Fun test that has been done:
they blind fold the people participating and flip the board when the testees weren't looking. The result? The ghosts suddenly couldn't say anything.

That, and it's a toy.
The patent is owned by... um, wait a sec. *rattle* *crash* *cat's scream* Found it. Parker brothers. Parker brothers bought the rights to the ouija board from the guys who came up with it back in 1891.

On that topic: A couple of classmates of mine were recently talking about how they visited a new age practitioner. She told them that the angel Gabriel was in the room with them [footnote]and by all means, I'm fine with that. Believe whatever nonsense you like so long as it doesn't affect others.[/footnote]. Then, to prove his presence, she pulled out a pendulum and used this to answer yes and no questions...
Please stop using parlor tricks to "prove" your religion. No religion has ever been proven to be right, and no cheap trick that anyone can do without the presence of spirits is going to change that.

And about that experiment. To be fair, the "ghosts" could say something. It's just that what they were saying didn't make sense at all, since the marker was moving to the places on the board where the participants thought the right answer was.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Another one of my friends has actually studied and done other exorcisms and he managed to get everything under control. Can't tell you how he did it though because I was mostly trying to keep my friend from lashing out at anyone. It took about six of us to hold her down and she's tiny and really skinny.

Holy crow. I've read of "classic" possessions, but I didn't think they really happened outside of tribal Africa. How did it happen? Do you believe that Ouija boards can channel the dead/demonic?

You realize that this conversation is going to piss off everyone who reads it, right?

The Ouija Board? Sigh.....
Ghosts aren't leading the letter thing. You are just guiding it to the answer that you want.
Fun test that has been done:
they blind fold the people participating and flip the board when the testees weren't looking. The result? The ghosts suddenly couldn't say anything.

That, and it's a toy.
The patent is owned by... um, wait a sec. *rattle* *crash* *cat's scream* Found it. Parker brothers. Parker brothers bought the rights to the ouija board from the guys who came up with it back in 1891.

On that topic: A couple of classmates of mine were recently talking about how they visited a new age practitioner. She told them that the angel Gabriel was in the room with them [footnote]and by all means, I'm fine with that. Believe whatever nonsense you like so long as it doesn't affect others.[/footnote]. Then, to prove his presence, she pulled out a pendulum and used this to answer yes and no questions...
Please stop using parlor tricks to "prove" your religion. No religion has ever been proven to be right, and no cheap trick that anyone can do without the presence of spirits is going to change that.

Agreed. And funny how the angel that appeared was one that would be recognizable to anyone. Must be a coincidence....

 

[Jonluw]

Another one of my friends has actually studied and done other exorcisms and he managed to get everything under control. Can't tell you how he did it though because I was mostly trying to keep my friend from lashing out at anyone. It took about six of us to hold her down and she's tiny and really skinny.

Holy crow. I've read of "classic" possessions, but I didn't think they really happened outside of tribal Africa. How did it happen? Do you believe that Ouija boards can channel the dead/demonic?

You realize that this conversation is going to piss off everyone who reads it, right?

The Ouija Board? Sigh.....
Ghosts aren't leading the letter thing. You are just guiding it to the answer that you want.
Fun test that has been done:
they blind fold the people participating and flip the board when the testees weren't looking. The result? The ghosts suddenly couldn't say anything.

That, and it's a toy.
The patent is owned by... um, wait a sec. *rattle* *crash* *cat's scream* Found it. Parker brothers. Parker brothers bought the rights to the ouija board from the guys who came up with it back in 1891.

On that topic: A couple of classmates of mine were recently talking about how they visited a new age practitioner. She told them that the angel Gabriel was in the room with them [footnote]and by all means, I'm fine with that. Believe whatever nonsense you like so long as it doesn't affect others.[/footnote]. Then, to prove his presence, she pulled out a pendulum and used this to answer yes and no questions...
Please stop using parlor tricks to "prove" your religion. No religion has ever been proven to be right, and no cheap trick that anyone can do without the presence of spirits is going to change that.

Agreed. And funny how the angel that appeared was one that would be recognizable to anyone. Must be a coincidence....

It seems, from her own testimony, that the angels she had most contact with were the christian archangels Gabriel and Michael(who apparently was a bit of a joker.) and a native American chief or shaman.
Gabriel allegedly liked to hang around when she was introducing people to the concept of communicating with spirits.

 

[remnant_phoenix]

The Holocaust was from Christians? Learn something new every day.

Hitler was Roman Catholic. And in his own book, he praises the Glory of Jesus. Not only that, but in MANY of his speeches he invokes the Name of God and Jesus. Hitler even had Papal Sacntion to do what he wanted. The German Army celebrated the Holy Holidays, and had Chaplan units assigned to them just like the US had. Make no mistake, Hitler was a Christitan, no matter what ignorrant people want to tell you, that have never really studied WW2.

Find me a single place that Hitler claims to murder everyone FOR the glory of God.

It's frankly irrelevant what he is. It does not change at all the fact that he used the credulity of the people grown by religious indoctrination over hundreds of years to great effect.

I'm so sick of seeing this crap.

Atheists claiming that Hitler was acting on behalf of Christianity.

Christians claiming that it was the influence of atheists philosophers like Neitzche that paved the way for Nazism.

It's all pro-Christian or pro-Atheism propaganda garbage!!!

History teacher here! Let me clue you in...

Hitler was neither a representative of Christian religion nor was he fueled by people like Neitzche. Nazi Germany completely barred religious influence and replaced the infant baptism ceremony that was in German churches ceremony with a sort of neo-pagan "naming ceremony."

All of Hitler's actions relating to relgion once he came into power were neither indicative of western christian philosophy nor western atheist philosophy. If anything Nazi Germany had a strange sort of neo-pagan religion that glorified the "master Aryan German race" above all things.

Stop propagating historical lies that only exist to defame people who believe differently than you.

Mkay, either you're quoting the wrong person or having a hard time understanding what I was saying. I could make the case that Hitler's regime was a theocracy like any other, but that would take time, more than I see this subject worth anyway.

No, what I was saying is that his intentions are irrelevant. Religious indoctrination stretching on for hundreds and hundreds of years coupled with bigotry and ignorance is what let him reach his goal. Maybe he really believed what he said, maybe he was just using religious jargon to achieve his goals. It matters not to me.

Facts of the matter - his ideology used Christian themes, and a neo-pagan religion is still a religion. I could not give less of a fuck about which particular religion it was.

All of what I wrote only leads me to ask, which part of my post are you actually responding to? I'm seriously at a loss here.

I was responding more to the conversation in general. Particularly the posts that were quoted leading up to yours.

My comment was, in general, directed at certain segments of the theist population that try to blame Nazism on atheism and certain segments of the atheist population that try to blame Nazism on the Christian faith when both of those claims are historically false.

Your claim that religious indoctrination "is what let him reach his goal" is, while not completely untrue, historically unfounded as well. The strongest elements of Hitler's rise to power were economics and nationalist pride.

He did use certain religious jargon to assist him, but that's what ALL ambitious political expansionists do. Cases in point: Alexander the Great and Constantine. So, saying that religious jargon assisted Hitler's rise to power? True, but you have people on here saying that Christianity is responsible for the Holocaust, and that's a slippery slope logical fallacy that is historically unfounded.

Anyone with a strong knowledge of history will tell you that neither religion nor atheism, despite whatever influence they had, were quintessential to Hitler's rise to power, nor were they directly or indirectly responsible for events that occurred when Hitler established power (i.e. the Holocaust).

And THAT is my point.

 

[Gyrohelix]

The Holocaust was from Christians? Learn something new every day.

Hitler was Roman Catholic. And in his own book, he praises the Glory of Jesus. Not only that, but in MANY of his speeches he invokes the Name of God and Jesus. Hitler even had Papal Sacntion to do what he wanted. The German Army celebrated the Holy Holidays, and had Chaplan units assigned to them just like the US had. Make no mistake, Hitler was a Christitan, no matter what ignorrant people want to tell you, that have never really studied WW2.

Find me a single place that Hitler claims to murder everyone FOR the glory of God.

It's frankly irrelevant what he is. It does not change at all the fact that he used the credulity of the people grown by religious indoctrination over hundreds of years to great effect.

I'm so sick of seeing this crap.

Atheists claiming that Hitler was acting on behalf of Christianity.

Christians claiming that it was the influence of atheists philosophers like Neitzche that paved the way for Nazism.

It's all pro-Christian or pro-Atheism propaganda garbage!!!

History teacher here! Let me clue you in...

Hitler was neither a representative of Christian religion nor was he fueled by people like Neitzche. Nazi Germany completely barred religious influence and replaced the infant baptism ceremony that was in German churches ceremony with a sort of neo-pagan "naming ceremony."

All of Hitler's actions relating to relgion once he came into power were neither indicative of western christian philosophy nor western atheist philosophy. If anything Nazi Germany had a strange sort of neo-pagan religion that glorified the "master Aryan German race" above all things.

Stop propagating historical lies that only exist to defame people who believe differently than you.

Mkay, either you're quoting the wrong person or having a hard time understanding what I was saying. I could make the case that Hitler's regime was a theocracy like any other, but that would take time, more than I see this subject worth anyway.

No, what I was saying is that his intentions are irrelevant. Religious indoctrination stretching on for hundreds and hundreds of years coupled with bigotry and ignorance is what let him reach his goal. Maybe he really believed what he said, maybe he was just using religious jargon to achieve his goals. It matters not to me.

Facts of the matter - his ideology used Christian themes, and a neo-pagan religion is still a religion. I could not give less of a fuck about which particular religion it was.

All of what I wrote only leads me to ask, which part of my post are you actually responding to? I'm seriously at a loss here.

I was responding more to the conversation in general. Particularly the posts that were quoted leading up to yours.

My comment was, in general, directed at certain segments of the theist population that try to blame Nazism on atheism and certain segments of the atheist population that try to blame Nazism on the Christian faith when both of those claims are historically false.

Your claim that religious indoctrination "is what let him reach his goal" is, while not completely untrue, historically unfounded as well. The strongest elements of Hitler's rise to power were economics and nationalist pride.

He did use certain religious jargon to assist him, but that's what ALL ambitious political expansionists do. Cases in point: Alexander the Great and Constantine. So, saying that religious jargon assisted Hitler's rise to power? True, but you have people on here saying that Christianity is responsible for the Holocaust, and that's a slippery slope logical fallacy that is historically unfounded.

Anyone with a strong knowledge of history will tell you that neither religion nor atheism, despite whatever influence they had, were quintessential to Hitler's rise to power, nor were they directly or indirectly responsible for events that occurred when Hitler established power (i.e. the Holocaust).

And THAT is my point.

He didn't say anything NEARLY RESEMBLING your little rant,nobody said the word Hitler, he never reached his goal, and the reason he got to where he was, is because the people were unhappy and more willing to accept a radicalist such as hitler as a savior or revolutionary, regardless of his flat out insanity, but this is all moot because NOBODY. SAID. HITLER.

 

[Madara XIII]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/teenager-died-from-%E2%80%98suffocation%E2%80%99-in-exorcism.html

Ya know what I say to this?!? F*CK ALL!! I mean it. I've had it!
It's gotten to the point at which I'm willing to denounce my faith just to have that ability to be a callous prick to everyone and everything. Screw my conscience. Screw what people believe. Just give me facts from now on!

Remove me from this morals BS
Remove me from this silly belief in Karma

I'm done! I don't care if I wind up in Hell if it turns out to be real! That's how well my faith stands.
I'm damned if I believe, because I'm made to look like a flipping lunatic and I'm damned if I don't because I still have a lingering belief in God.

So yeah if Hell turns out to be real expect me laughing through the gates, because I have no faith in humanity and practically little to no faith in whatever power may be!