Mentally Ill Teenage Girl Dies From Suffocation During Exorcism

[Bluntman1138]

Almost correct, he tried to use religion to brainwash the very religious public, when he became dictator he was able to take control of almost all of the churches and use them for propaganda. In basic, he wanted people to revere him as a god and saw that the best way to do that was to manipulate christian beliefs with the Nazis regeme (thats where religious holidays came in), saying that though one of his reasons for the mass genocide of jewish people was basically "the Jews killed Jesus and therefore they should be wiped out". If Hitler had his way however he would of wiped out all of the current religions for one based around worshiping himself.

Hitler may have seen himself as a New Messiah, But he Believed in his lord Christ and God as the "Creator". No where have i rad any credible sources saying Hitler wanted to make himself a God, when his own Writings and speeches profess Christ's Glory.

"The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc. . . . I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions." Adolf Hitler, 1933, after the Third Reich was born.

 

[Jonluw]

While you are entitled to your opinion, I question the practicality and morality of what you suggest. To "do away" with something does not mean to simply let it die out, but to actively exterminate it. I assume you're aware that this breach of human rights would be actively opposed by many, including a significant number of atheists and agnostics who believe in the right of every human being to follow their own path?

You wouldn't have to do away with it forcefully. I'm not insinuating we should lead some agressive campaign against all religion.
One way would be to encourage critical thinking and rationality. Wait, why aren't we doing that already?

Causing a shift in society to stick to facts and well proven theories when anything important is concerned needn't be done through methods which infringe on human rights.

There's a certain lack of openness to some other points of view in your words of which you may not be aware. I am a Christian and I do my best to think critically and rationally. Many other Christians do too. We would certainly want to encourage using one's mind to its full potential; it is, after all, a gift from God. I'm sure many people of other faiths have similar feelings. After all, many great logical thinkers throughout the ages have had strong religious faith. Accordingly, I firmly disagree that that encouraging critical thinking would automatically lead to a decline in the love and worship of God or the divine (or however one's particular faith would put it).

In fact, nothing less than breaching my human rights could convince me to give up my faith. I certainly hope that even that wouldn't make me recant, but it's difficult to know how one would hold up under serious persecution, pain, or the threat of death unless one actually experiences something like that, and we're not always as brave as we'd wish to be. So yes: if you wanted to eliminate my faith, for instance, breaching my rights would be required.

However, I don't get the impression that you have any such wishes. Either you didn't think that people like me might exist (maybe you still don't; "she hilariously thinks she tries to be rational!" you may laugh, if one could laugh such a mouthful), or you didn't follow your thought of getting rid of religion through to its logical conclusion. Or maybe you just meant that wrongful practices committed by religious people should cease, in which case I agree - though I apply it to everyone, not just religious people. ;-)

Criminal actions such as the one mention in the OP could be lessened by better education and more rational thinking (as could wrongful actions with all kinds of motives). I hope that does happen! But we are missing an important piece of the puzzle: love. Our fellow escapist was right to say that religion isn't just for academics to discuss. God wants us to use our minds, but He also wants us to use our hearts. We need not just a more rational world but also a kinder world. And, in some ways, we need to prefer love - certainly, in the face of the kind of utilitarianism some people would call rational (a rationality based only on numbers), we need to maintain that the few, the poor, and the weak should not be sacrificed for the many, the wealthy, and the strong. So perhaps, in this sense, religion is irrational: it values love, which cannot be measured by any scientific unit. Still, we all know what love is and how valuable it is (or we do if we haven't suffered awful abuse or emotional deprivation), so I like to think this is an irrationality that we share.

You seem to misunderstand how I mean the process of eliminating organized religion in society would work.
I'm not saying that encouraging critical thinking and rationality will cause you or any other religious people - beyond the agnostics and closeted atheists - to change their views on the matter.
What it will do, on the other hand, is cause less people in coming generations to become religious in the first place.
The goal isn't to force people to part with their religious views, but to cause a social change over generations towards a world where rationality and logic is valued above blind faith.
A world where a ridiculous hypothesis like creationism is not taught in science class.
Optimally, I would want parents to be obligated to give their children a religiously neutral upbringing by law; but that is tricky to do without stepping on some rights. It is, after all, difficult to be a religious practitioner without having your faith rub off on people who live in the same house as you.

And yes, I do believe you are being irrational. That sounds very bad, but allow me to clarify: You are employing rational chains of thought, but all your logic is ultimately built on an irrational premise. When the initial condition is not rational and logical, any arguments - no matter how logical - you build on it are rendered void.
If you can get the listener to accept an initial condition, you can argue for anything and have it seem logical, when the truth is that your argument is only as logical as the original premise.
For example, if we establish that omnipresence is possible and attainable for the likes of me, one can with flawless logic argue that I know where you live. The final statement (I know where you live) is, however, only as true as the initial one, which has no logical backing at all. This holds true no matter how long a chain of logical arguments you make.

Of course, I'm not saying you lack the capacity to be rational. There are plenty of situations where religious belief doesn't factor into the matter at all, where a religious person's views are just as relevant as those of someone with a secular mindset.

And one does not need to be religious in order to be kind to one's fellow humans. Though it certainly isn't the only one; the only justification needed to be kind to your fellow humans is that humans naturally feel discomfort when they see another in pain.
As an aside: I'd argue that we are far from knowing what love is, seeing how it seems every person has their own definition of the word; the only common denominator appearing to be that it's a positive emotion.

 

[Cavouku]

Snip

Hm. Doesn't change my opinion of it being counter productive at all. If I were some exorcist priest, I... well, I'm not totally sure what I'd do, because if I were in such a position, my first order of business would probably be to send the person to a hospital for diagnosis. And that would solve the problem probably every time I'd ever run into it.

And as for the blaming religion thing, I can totally see your point, and you're right, but the thing is this isn't a problem of belief in and of itself, it's a level of extremism, even if the believers would say it isn't. Exorcism, especially using torture methods like this, is extremism. And atheism isn't immune to extremism, religion just makes it easier to justify oneself.

I'm not saying that to bring you down, but without some balancing we just sound disrespectful, and I'm pro-respect.

So respect to you, especially with those links... seriously, that stuff's not right, demons or no demons.

 

[Yawwy]

Almost correct, he tried to use religion to brainwash the very religious public, when he became dictator he was able to take control of almost all of the churches and use them for propaganda. In basic, he wanted people to revere him as a god and saw that the best way to do that was to manipulate christian beliefs with the Nazis regeme (thats where religious holidays came in), saying that though one of his reasons for the mass genocide of jewish people was basically "the Jews killed Jesus and therefore they should be wiped out". If Hitler had his way however he would of wiped out all of the current religions for one based around worshiping himself.

Hitler may have seen himself as a New Messiah, But he Believed in his lord Christ and God as the "Creator". No where have i rad any credible sources saying Hitler wanted to make himself a God, when his own Writings and speeches profess Christ's Glory.

"The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc. . . . I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions." Adolf Hitler, 1933, after the Third Reich was born.

You know,he can't have been all that into the Catholic Church,when you know,he was really into his occult and old gods.I mean,there was a reason he was so into the old Aryan race,and bringing them back.Then there's the fact that he attempted-and for the most part,failed-to set up a Nazi church,which would become the church of the state.The Nazi Church had nothing to do with Christianity,so how would that fit in?

He worked with the Catholic Church as long as it suited him,but when they started to go against his plans,he dropped them like a hot coal.

 

[UltraXan]

*face fucking palm*

Really? Ladies and gentlemen, this is a clear indication that some people just don't. have. common. sense. I mean really, if you perform an exorcism hundreds of time *but nothing happens*, then common sense dictates it's *not* a demon! But then again, I'm Athiest, so I think they were stupid to think it was a demon in the first place, but that's just me...

 

[JambalayaBob]

Buddhism has always had demons and shit in its religion, just like pretty much any other religion. They even have a hell for fuck's sake! Buddhism is no different from any other religion, so stop acting like it is; it's only your own ignorance to it that makes it any different.

 

[Rin Little]

Ok, I'm Wicca, and I do believe in possession. I never used to, but after it happened to a friend of mine I do. And honestly, I have no idea how someone can mistake a mental illness for demonic possession. Maybe it's because I've studied psychology and I know what to look for, but even still, that exorcism idea is just stupid. Holding someone down while you let a cascade of water flow over their face? Water-boarding anyone?

 

[Bluntman1138]

He worked with the Catholic Church as long as it suited him,but when they started to go against his plans,he dropped them like a hot coal.

"Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise." -Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1

 

[lacktheknack]

Ok, I'm Wicca, and I do believe in possession. I never used to, but after it happened to a friend of mine I do. And honestly, I have no idea how someone can mistake a mental illness for demonic possession. Maybe it's because I've studied psychology and I know what to look for, but even still, that exorcism idea is just stupid. Holding someone down while you let a cascade of water flow over their face? Water-boarding anyone?

If you don't mind me asking, what's the main differences between a possession and a mental illness?

 

[lacktheknack]

I'll close with an image I find fairly well encapsulates my point:

BEST. IMAGE. EVER.
(that does not have tits in it)

Dear lord that image fails utterly.

Beyond the fact that throughout the dark ages much scientific development continued and where infact propogated by the Catholic Church by the fact THEY MADE EVERY COPY IN EUROPE BACK THEN. The massive gap was a result of uneducated peasents jumping to the conclusion that book learning was the cause of the black death. The best way to see this is by realising that Ireland was used by Catholic church as a storage block to maintain ANY form of knowlege INCLUDING so called heretical texts, which is why they still exist.

Thank you for modern science Roman Catholocism!

Can you source this, perchance? It would really shake up a couple people I know but good.

 

[Rin Little]

Ok, I'm Wicca, and I do believe in possession. I never used to, but after it happened to a friend of mine I do. And honestly, I have no idea how someone can mistake a mental illness for demonic possession. Maybe it's because I've studied psychology and I know what to look for, but even still, that exorcism idea is just stupid. Holding someone down while you let a cascade of water flow over their face? Water-boarding anyone?

If you don't mind me asking, what's the main differences between a possession and a mental illness?

A lot of it comes from if the person starts speaking in tongues. There's no way you can mistake it as anything else if you hear it for yourself. Honestly, if I could compare demonic possession to any mental disorder it looks closest to multiple personality disorder, but there's something off about the person, usually how they speak (like what I mentioned with speaking in tongues). It's just... creepy, there's no other way I can describe it. You just know there's something wrong, like the actual person is a shell and there's something foreign about them.

 

[lacktheknack]

Ok, I'm Wicca, and I do believe in possession. I never used to, but after it happened to a friend of mine I do. And honestly, I have no idea how someone can mistake a mental illness for demonic possession. Maybe it's because I've studied psychology and I know what to look for, but even still, that exorcism idea is just stupid. Holding someone down while you let a cascade of water flow over their face? Water-boarding anyone?

If you don't mind me asking, what's the main differences between a possession and a mental illness?

A lot of it comes from if the person starts speaking in tongues. There's no way you can mistake it as anything else if you hear it for yourself. Honestly, if I could compare demonic possession to any mental disorder it looks closest to multiple personality disorder, but there's something off about the person, usually how they speak (like what I mentioned with speaking in tongues). It's just... creepy, there's no other way I can describe it. You just know there's something wrong, like the actual person is a shell and there's something foreign about them.

What happened to your friend? D:

 

[Rin Little]

What happened to your friend? D:

Another one of my friends has actually studied and done other exorcisms and he managed to get everything under control. Can't tell you how he did it though because I was mostly trying to keep my friend from lashing out at anyone. It took about six of us to hold her down and she's tiny and really skinny.

 

[lacktheknack]

Another one of my friends has actually studied and done other exorcisms and he managed to get everything under control. Can't tell you how he did it though because I was mostly trying to keep my friend from lashing out at anyone. It took about six of us to hold her down and she's tiny and really skinny.

Holy crow. I've read of "classic" possessions, but I didn't think they really happened outside of tribal Africa. How did it happen? Do you believe that Ouija boards can channel the dead/demonic?

You realize that this conversation is going to piss off everyone who reads it, right?

 

[Leg End]

Another one of my friends has actually studied and done other exorcisms and he managed to get everything under control. Can't tell you how he did it though because I was mostly trying to keep my friend from lashing out at anyone. It took about six of us to hold her down and she's tiny and really skinny.

Holy crow. I've read of "classic" possessions, but I didn't think they really happened outside of tribal Africa. How did it happen? Do you believe that Ouija boards can channel the dead/demonic?

You realize that this conversation is going to piss off everyone who reads it, right?

It ain't gonna piss me off.
You have my blessing, just watch the rails.

 

[Rin Little]

Holy crow. I've read of "classic" possessions, but I didn't think they really happened outside of tribal Africa. How did it happen? Do you believe that Ouija boards can channel the dead/demonic?

You realize that this conversation is going to piss off everyone who reads it, right?

We honestly can't figure out how it did. Oh man, I hate Ouija boards. They don't so much channel the dead/demonic as open doors so that anything that wants to get in can regardless as to whether its good or bad.

I've had people pissed off at me for worse. Simple fact is that I saw this with my own eyes and it scared the living shit out of me.

 

[lacktheknack]

Holy crow. I've read of "classic" possessions, but I didn't think they really happened outside of tribal Africa. How did it happen? Do you believe that Ouija boards can channel the dead/demonic?

You realize that this conversation is going to piss off everyone who reads it, right?

We honestly can't figure out how it did. Oh man, I hate Ouija boards. They don't so much channel the dead/demonic as open doors so that anything that wants to get in can regardless as to whether its good or bad.

I've had people pissed off at me for worse. Simple fact is that I saw this with my own eyes and it scared the living shit out of me.

I don't blame you.

Although, I was kinda under the impression that Wiccans harnessed demons for spells and such... but you speak of "good" and "bad" things getting in. I'm guessing I've been misinformed?

 

[x-machina]

After just coming from that Roman Polanski thread, where an asshole was actually championing pedophila. I can't quite muster up the usual indignant outrage I should have when I hear something like this. Nope, now I'm just depressed.

 

[Leg End]

After just coming from that Roman Polanski thread, where an asshole was actually championing pedophila. I can't quite muster up the usual indignant outrage I should have when I hear something like this. Nope, now I'm just depressed.

How do you "champion" Pedophilia?

I dun geddit. :L