Militia Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor and Overthrow Government

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tstorm823

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I am not even a democrat. LOL

DO you now have " alternative facts" on the Nazi's rise to power?. WOW. There is NOTHING MODERATE about Current Republican Rhetoric. How you got your head this twisted.. I don't even. None of what you stated is even remotely accurate here. Where are you learning this nonsense from?
Read some, learn some, understand some.

Hitler gained positions of power by opposing communists. He gained political power for the Nazi Party through street fights with communists. The Nazi's gained representation in parallel to the communists. And when the Nazi's started winning,

"The Communists openly announced that they would prefer to see the Nazis in power rather than lift a finger to save the republic".

"The Communist International described all moderate left-wing parties as "social fascists" and urged the Communists to devote their energies to the destruction of the moderate left."

These aren't alternative facts. Communism and Nazism grew in parallel in Germany, and the power vacuum left from Communists attacking the center allowed Hitler to take control. If you deny that, you're denying history. And if you can't see the parallel between that history and modern communists who you are personally arguing with regularly because they condemn liberalism and would rather see the right gain power than support the moderate left, I don't know what you're thinking.
 
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Revnak

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I didn't mention you by name, nor say you weren't concerned about the problem of rightwing terrorism, nor that you intended to derail the thread to avoid talking about the topic.
Yeah, you just implied it.
Did I ever say you didn't care about this problem? Who said that? You just went off on a tangent that liberal didn't have different meanings in the US and proceeded to insult me and hurl unfounded accusations at me instead.
I never said it didn’t have different meanings. I said some of those meanings were rooted in historical illiteracy and that when talking about the Panthers you should be respectful enough to use their own definition.
The ONLY option we actually have here IS to vote the problem away because otherwise they control the police and military.. If we can get Bernie Sanders, AOC, Elizabeth Warren elected, we can get more elected, we just have to stop infighting and do it. What are the other options? We going to make our own hillbilly militia out of a bunch of pro gun control activists and fight them in the streets? Go ahead and lay out the realistic options we have here to put a stop to the BS?

In this case, the FBI took them out, because luckily we still have enough people in office to allow that to happen, If these guys control the FBI entirely though, then what? I mean if Trump had his way, that is exactly what he could do. He is already trying to control the DoJ to arrest his political enemies. The right has all these armed militia nutjobs, are you saying the answer is to get our own? I am not seeing that you are offering an answer here at all.
Maybe I’m defensive regarding the Panthers because I view their actions as a perfect way to combat this problem.
And Vote View is illiterate as well and the list goes on and on because oh yea, liberal has different meanings in the US like I said to begin with that was why Silent Pony's statement was correct. There are more POV than just YOUR POV.
Have you considered the POV of the Panthers?
 

lil devils x

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Yeah, you just implied it.

I never said it didn’t have different meanings. I said some of those meanings were rooted in historical illiteracy and that when talking about the Panthers you should be respectful enough to use their own definition.

Maybe I’m defensive regarding the Panthers because I view their actions as a perfect way to combat this problem.

Have you considered the POV of the Panthers?
Yea, and tbh they didn't get very far that way now did they? And now apparently even Vote View is illiterate according to you.
 

lil devils x

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Read some, learn some, understand some.

Hitler gained positions of power by opposing communists. He gained political power for the Nazi Party through street fights with communists. The Nazi's gained representation in parallel to the communists. And when the Nazi's started winning,

"The Communists openly announced that they would prefer to see the Nazis in power rather than lift a finger to save the republic".

"The Communist International described all moderate left-wing parties as "social fascists" and urged the Communists to devote their energies to the destruction of the moderate left."

These aren't alternative facts. Communism and Nazism grew in parallel in Germany, and the power vacuum left from Communists attacking the center allowed Hitler to take control. If you deny that, you're denying history. And if you can't see the parallel between that history and modern communists who you are personally arguing with regularly because they condemn liberalism and would rather see the right gain power than support the moderate left, I don't know what you're thinking.
Did you read the links I provided above? The wealthy paid for propaganda, rhetoric, not that the " commies" were the real threat.
 

ObsidianJones

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No they were driven to it by rightwing media creating the antifa bogeyman and convincing them that they want to burn down the country. Just like I don't believe those nice boys were pushed into chanting "Jews will not replace us" while waving torches by pesky leftists.
Don't stress it, Cheetodust. Arguments like this are a gift. This is an argument that I love from Conservatives and people with Conservative sympathies.

They usually don't realize the implications when they use this argument. It paints those people who join the Alt-right or White Supremacy Hate Groups as easily led simps whose only choice when presented with something they might not like that much is to turn to a life of criminality, harming other people because they were forced to make that choice via an world uncaring to their feelings and their treatment.

It's a beautiful argument that I love because it can easily be turned to them and say "Oh... kind of like those people with a lot of melanin in their skin protesting unequal education, job opportunities, and a police system that gets away with brutalization of said people and wholesale killing of their numbers?"

Then have fun watching them with the mental gymnastics. Poor conservatives are always pushed to do these horrible things, but everyone else must bare it for the good of society.
 

lil devils x

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Because liberals killed them.
Edit: also, thanks for admitting you do in fact not care for the Panthers.
I didn't say I didn't care for them, I 100% agree with them defending themselves. I just don't think they can get very far with violent revolution, and they didn't. That isn't saying I don't care for them, it is I see they are out gunned and I don't want the to lose their lives needlessly and still not accomplish their goals. You are drawing inaccurate conclusions. The end goals should be to be alive AND accomplish your goals. I am not seeing that leads to either.
 

Revnak

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I didn't say I didn't care for them, I 100% agree with them defending themselves. I just don't think they can get very far with violent revolution, and they didn't. That isn't saying I don't care for them, it is I see they are out gunned and I don't want the to lose their lives needlessly and still not accomplish their goals. You are drawing inaccurate conclusions. The end goals should be to be alive AND accomplish your goals. I am not seeing that leads to either.
And the dudes that voted got shot too. They all got shot. Everyone who aimed to resolve these problems got shot. Everyone who aims to resolve these problems will get shot. Imperialism, colonialism, in their every expression are at war with humanity. At least the Panthers realized they were fighting.
 

lil devils x

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And the dudes that voted got shot too. They all got shot. Everyone who aimed to resolve these problems got shot. Everyone who aims to resolve these problems will get shot. Imperialism, colonialism, in their every expression are at war with humanity. At least the Panthers realized they were fighting.
So how many people are getting shot trying to vote in 2016? 2018? 2020? I realize what we are fighting, I just want people to be alive when we finally are able to accomplish our goals here and not all dead. The more we vote, the more we control. If we have control, we also control the military and police to make sure people aren't getting shot. Cant do that unless we control them however. How is anything other than the Military going to stop that 22,000 militia here in Texas ?
 

Revnak

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So how many people are getting shot trying to vote in 2016? 2018? 2020? I realize what we are fighting, I just want people to be alive when we finally are able to accomplish our goals here and not all dead. The more we vote, the more we control. If we have control, we also control the military and police to make sure people aren't getting shot. Cant do that unless we control them however.
Whatever. Just stop appropriating the Panthers.
 

lil devils x

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Whatever. Just stop appropriating the Panthers.
No one is "appropriating the panthers" LOL that would require me to actually USE them for my own purpose, and I am not using them at all. I would rather they stay alive here. I sure as hell wouldn't want them to have to fight that 22,000 militia in Texas, that is why controlling the military is so important here. The US military is the only group capable of taking down some of these militias here.. Not wanting the Panthers hurt=\= appropriating them.
 

tstorm823

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Did you read the links I provided above? The wealthy paid for propaganda, rhetoric, not that the " commies" were the real threat.
Shall we read together?

"But the worldwide economic depression and the rising power of labor unions and communists convinced increasing numbers of Germans to turn to the Nazi Party. The Nazis fed on bank failures and unemployment—proof, Hitler said, of the ineffectiveness of democratic government. Hitler pledged to restore prosperity, create civil order (by crushing industrial strikes and street demonstrations by communists and socialists), eliminate the influence of Jewish financiers, and make the fatherland once again a world power."

So, they're saying people were more supportive of the Nazis... because people were opposed to the communists... and Hitler promised to stop the communists... who were in the streets doing pretty much exactly what they're doing now. And eventually civil liberties were suspended when a communist set the parliament building on fire.

Do you really not see the parallels to modern day?
 

Revnak

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No one is "appropriating the panthers" LOL that would require me to actually USE them for my own purpose, and I am not using them at all. I would rather they stay alive here. I sure as hell wouldn't want them to have to fight that 22,000 militia in Texas, that is why controlling the military is so important here. The US military is the only group capable of taking down some of these militias here.. Not wanting the Panthers hurt=\= appropriating them.
Calling them liberals is appropriating them
 

lil devils x

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Shall we read together?

"But the worldwide economic depression and the rising power of labor unions and communists convinced increasing numbers of Germans to turn to the Nazi Party. The Nazis fed on bank failures and unemployment—proof, Hitler said, of the ineffectiveness of democratic government. Hitler pledged to restore prosperity, create civil order (by crushing industrial strikes and street demonstrations by communists and socialists), eliminate the influence of Jewish financiers, and make the fatherland once again a world power."

So, they're saying people were more supportive of the Nazis... because people were opposed to the communists... and Hitler promised to stop the communists... who were in the streets doing pretty much exactly what they're doing now. And eventually civil liberties were suspended when a communist set the parliament building on fire.

Do you really not see the parallels to modern day?
Okay let's read:

Germany during the 1920s the Nazis took advantage of circumstances, and used propaganda and Hitler’s leadership to appeal to different groups and increase their popularity.
  • Communists believed all private ownership of land and assets was theft. Germany’s rich landowners and businessmen wanted to prevent communists gaining any political influence at all.
  • The Nazis were violently opposed to communism and the SA often attacked communist groups in the beer halls and the streets. This led to many landowners and businessmen supporting the Nazis.
  • The economic crash in the USA in 1929 meant that the loans given to Germany under the 1924 Dawes Plan were called in.
    • The German economy could not survive and as a result businesses closed and many Germans became unemployed. This worsened the situation with a lack of demand for goods leading to more closures and job losses.

Where there’s smoke, there’s fire, and where there’s fire, conspiracy theories are sure to follow. At least, that’s what happened in Germany on February 27, 1933, when a sizeable portion of the parliamentary building in Berlin, the Reichstag, went up in flames from an arson attack.
It was the canary in the political coal mine—a flashpoint event when Adolf Hitler played upon public and political fears to consolidate power, setting the stage for the rise of Nazi Germany. Since then, it’s become a powerful political metaphor. Whenever citizens and politicians feel threatened by executive overreach, the “Reichstag Fire” is referenced as a cautionary tale.

Following a stint in jail for his failed Beer Hall Putsch in 1923, Hitler poured his energy into attaining power through legal channels. He rose to the head of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party (Nazis), and by 1928 the group’s membership exceeded 100,000. The Nazis denounced the Weimar Republic and the “November criminals,” politicians had signed the Treaty of Versailles. The treaty forced Germany to accept responsibility for World War I, pay huge remunerations, transfer territory to their neighbors and limit the size of the military.

Despite its considerable growth, the Nazi party won only 2.6 percent of the vote in the 1928 election. But then the Great Depression hit, sending the U.S. and Europe into an economic tailspin and shooting the number of unemployed up to 6 million people in Germany (around 30 percent of the population). The sudden slump caused massive social upheaval, which the Nazis exploited to gain further political traction. By 1930, the Nazis won 18.3 percent of the Reichstag vote and became the second largest party after the Social Democrats, while the Communist party also grew to ten percent of the vote.

The economic unrest of the early 1930s meant that no single political party had a majority in the Reichstag, so fragile coalitions held the nation together. Faced with political chaos, President Paul von Hindenburg dissolved the Reichstag again and again. Frequent elections followed.

The Nazis aligned with other right-leaning factions and gradually worked their way up to 33 percent of the vote—but were unable to reach a full majority. In January 1933, Hindenburg reluctantly appointed Hitler as chancellor on the advice of Franz von Papen, a disgruntled former chancellor who believed the conservative bourgeois parties should ally with the Nazis to keep the Communists out of power. March 5 was set as the date for another series of Reichstag elections in hopes that one party might finally achieve the majority.

Meanwhile, the Nazis seized even more power, infiltrating the police and empowering ordinary party members as law enforcement officers. On February 22, Hitler used his powers as chancellor to enroll 50,000 Nazi SA men (also known as stormtroopers) as auxiliary police. Two days later, Hermann Göring, Minister of the Interior and one of Hitler’s closest compatriots, ordered a raid on Communist headquarters. Following the raid, the Nazis announced (falsely) that they’d found evidence of seditious material. They claimed the Communists were planning to attack public buildings.
On the night of February 27, around 9:00, pedestrians near the Reichstag heard the sound of breaking glass. Soon after, flames erupted from the building. It took fire engines hours to quell the fire, which destroyed the debating chamber and the Reichstag’s gilded cupola, ultimately causing over $1 million in damage. Police arrested an unemployed Dutch construction worker named Marinus van der Lubbe on the scene. The young man was found outside the building with firelighters in his possession and was panting and sweaty.
“This is a God-given signal,” Hitler told von Papen when they arrived on the scene. “If this fire, as I believe, is the work of the Communists, then we must crush out this murderous pest with an iron fist.”
A few hours later, on February 28, Hindenburg invoked Article 48 and the cabinet drew up the “Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of the People and State.” The act abolished freedom of speech, assembly, privacy and the press; legalized phone tapping and interception of correspondence; and suspended the autonomy of federated states, like Bavaria. That night around 4,000 people were arrested, imprisoned and tortured by the SA. Although the Communist party had won 17 percent of the Reichstag elections in November 1932, and the German people elected 81 Communist deputies in the March 5 elections, many were detained indefinitely after the fire. Their empty seats left the Nazis largely free to do as they wished.

 

lil devils x

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Calling them liberals is appropriating them
SO where do they sit on that Vote View chart above? The liberal or conservative side? Mhmm.. That is not appropriating them. Saying it does does not make it so.
 

ObsidianJones

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Ok, so I'm going to share some first hand experience.

I don't share that much of my family. I don't like that many people knowing about it. I've been here for over a decade, so I guess it's time for another tidbit about my family.

So. My Father and Mother met in at a Bronx Black Panther meeting in the seventies. My dad still has a picture of him and my mother at a meeting with the giant Afros.

My dad told me the stories. The sit-ins, the protests, some of the things he did in school. And while he was super proud of it, he saw that I was getting enchanted. He then closed the book and said that it was the stupidest thing he ever did.

I couldn't understand it. To me, my father was a real life Captain America. My Mother, Misty Knight. They went out and fought for their rights. I said as much, and do you know what he told me?

"Yeah, we got some scraps. But what we actually did was serve as the face of the Upstarts that dared to challenge society as a whole and got targeted by the local government."

They made it easier for the government to know where to strike. Who to follow and to see who they were talking to in fears that they were spreading the movement to others.

A show of solidary can always be swung as the evil menace. An evil menace that is trying to take the peace of mind of those not completely clued into what the show of Solidary is for.

Likeminded individuals who nationwide say that it's good that women have complete autonomy over their body, that every citizen deserves the same treatment no matter their religion or melanin count, and that taxes should go as much to improving the way of life for our fellow citizens and not just in the pockets of the politicians who are selling us out to companies... well, that's just the way of the times.

Neo Black Panther Party, Qanon, Green Party, The Young Republicans.... That's a group. They have a charter. They have agenda. It's time to prejudge.
 

lil devils x

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Shall we read together?

"But the worldwide economic depression and the rising power of labor unions and communists convinced increasing numbers of Germans to turn to the Nazi Party. The Nazis fed on bank failures and unemployment—proof, Hitler said, of the ineffectiveness of democratic government. Hitler pledged to restore prosperity, create civil order (by crushing industrial strikes and street demonstrations by communists and socialists), eliminate the influence of Jewish financiers, and make the fatherland once again a world power."

So, they're saying people were more supportive of the Nazis... because people were opposed to the communists... and Hitler promised to stop the communists... who were in the streets doing pretty much exactly what they're doing now. And eventually civil liberties were suspended when a communist set the parliament building on fire.

Do you really not see the parallels to modern day?
AND some more:

Hitler rose to power through the Nazi Party, an organization he forged after returning as a wounded veteran from the annihilating trench warfare of World War I. He and other patriotic Germans were outraged and humiliated by the harsh terms of the Treaty of Versailles, which the Allies compelled the new German government, the Weimar Republic, to accept along with an obligation to pay $33 billion in war reparations. Germany also had to give up its prized overseas colonies and surrender valued parcels of home territory to France and Poland. The German army was radically downsized and the nation forbidden to have submarines or an air force. “We shall squeeze the German lemon until the pips squeak!” explained one British official.

Paying the crushing reparations destabilized the economy, producing ruinous, runaway inflation. By September 1923, four billion German marks had the equal value of one American dollar. Consumers needed a wheelbarrow to carry enough paper money to buy a loaf of bread.

Hitler, a mesmerizing public speaker, addressed political meetings in Munich calling for a new German order to replace what he saw as an incompetent and inefficient democratic regime. This New Order was distinguished by an authoritarian political system based on a leadership structure in which authority flowed downward from a supreme national leader. In the new Germany, all citizens would unselfishly serve the state, or Volk; democracy would be abolished; and individual rights sacrificed for the good of the führer state. The ultimate aim of the Nazi Party was to seize power through Germany’s parliamentary system, install Hitler as dictator, and create a community of racially pure Germans loyal to their führer, who would lead them in a campaign of racial cleansing and world conquest.

Hitler blamed the Weimar Republic’s weakness on the influence of Germany’s Jewish and communist minorities, who he claimed were trying to take over the country. “There are only two possibilities,” he told a Munich audience in 1922. “Either victory of the Aryan, or annihilation of the Aryan and the victory of the Jew.” The young Hitler saw history as a process of racial struggle, with the strongest race—the Aryan race—ultimately prevailing by force of arms. “Mankind has grown great in eternal war,” Hitler wrote. “It would decay in eternal peace.”
Jews represented everything the Nazis found repugnant: finance capitalism (controlled, the Nazis believed, by powerful Jewish financiers), international communism (Karl Marx was a German Jew, and the leadership of the German Communist Party was heavily Jewish), and modernist cultural movements like psychoanalysis and swing music. Nazi Party foreign policy aimed to rid Europe of Jews and other “inferior” peoples, absorb pure-blooded Aryans into a greatly expanded Germany—a “Third Reich”—and wage unrelenting war on the Slavic “hordes” of Russia, considered by Hitler to be Untermenschen (subhuman). Once conquered, the Soviet Union would be ruled by the German master race, which would exterminate or subdue millions of Slavs to create lebensraum (living space) for their own farms and communities. In a conquered and racially cleansed Russia, they would work on model farms and factories connected to the homeland by new highways, called autobahns. Hitler was the ideologue as well as the chief organizer of the Nazi Party. By 1921, the party had a newspaper, an official flag, and a private army—the Sturmabteilung SA (storm troopers)—made up largely of unemployed and disenchanted WWI veterans. By 1923, the SA had grown to 15,000 men and had access to hidden stores of weapons. That year, Hitler and WWI hero General Erich Ludendorff attempted to overthrow the elected regional government of Bavaria in a coup known as the Beer Hall Putsch. The regular army crushed the rebellion and Hitler spent a year in prison—in loose confinement. In Landsberg Prison, Hitler dictated most of the first volume of his political autobiography, Mein Kampf (My Struggle). The book brought together, in inflamed language, the racialist and expansionist ideas he had been propagating in his popular beer-hall harangues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hitler using hate fueled rhetoric was not because the Jews or the Communist caused any of their problems, it is because his hate fueled rhetoric GAVE them someone to blame, not that they were actually to blame here.

I see parallels all right, but not the same ones you do.
 

Terminal Blue

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These aren't alternative facts. Communism and Nazism grew in parallel in Germany, and the power vacuum left from Communists attacking the center allowed Hitler to take control.
Have you seen this symbol before?

1602261146309.png

This is the symbol of the Iron Front, the paramilitary arm of the social democratic party, which remained the largest democratic party in Weimar Germany and also the only left wing democratic party. Today, you'll often see it used as an antifascist symbol, but historically this a nonsensical appropriation of the original meaning The three arrows represent the union of different interest groups which comprised the SPD, but also more famously the need for action against the three ideological enemies of the SPD, monarchism, nazism and communism.

You talk about street fights between communists and Nazis, but you neglect that the largest democratic party in Germany, was also using its paramilitary arm to attack both sides. Heck, the SPD had been murdering communists by the thousands since the end of world war 1, and had a history of collaborating with far right wing militias in order to do so.

This idea that everything was cool and then the communists just went totally out of line and attacked the centre is so historically illiterate that I shouldn't even have to engage with it. The centre and the communists had been in open war since the beginning of the Weimar republic, and the centre had never pulled its punches. Again, thousands of communists had been killed at this point. Imagine if thousands of left wing activists were being summarily shot in the streets of the US today by right wing militias with the full support and consent of the democratic party. Imagine then expecting those activists to act like the democratic party were their friends.

But there's something else, something far more obnoxious here.

In 1933, Germany faced a political crisis. The Reichstag had been set on fire in an attack that the government had blamed on the communist party, the KPD (the actual cause of the fire remains unknown). The Nazis had used this fire to obtain an emergency decree from the conservative president, which effectively suspended civil liberties. Immediately after, the Nazis had the KPD's leadership arrested, effectively removing them as a force in German politics. However, despite a snap election the Nazis did not have a parliamentary majority, meaning they could not pass laws without the consent of the other parties. To resolve this, the enabling act was drawn up.

The enabling act allowed Hitler's government to make laws without needing majority support from the Reichstag, the German parliament. It effectively granted Hitler complete dictatorial power for the duration of the law, which was originally four years. There was one problem though, the enabling act itself had to be passed in parliament.

How many of those centrist parties do you think opposed the enabling act? How many centrist politicians do you think spoke out against it when the entire political future of their government hung in the balance?

The answer is one. Only the SPD protested, but at that point they were alone.

If you want parallels, look right there. Conservatives will hand power to fascists without a moment's hesitation. Liberals and centrists will betray every principle you think that they have. They will bend over backwards to compromise and preserve the integrity of the system right up until the boots are marching down their halls. Hitler's rise to power isn't a story about communists being too loud and angry. It's a story about moderates being ineffectual cowards.

The reason we appropriate symbolism from both the SPD and the KPD, despite the fact they were enemies, is because at least they both tried. Noone else even tried.
 
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