I'[m curious as to your specific scientific pedigree. "Not to be that guy," but it's my experience that people who insist on this sexual divide are laypeople, and it seems exceedingly rare from biologists to hear this sort of talk. And yet, somehow, "science!"
minkus_draconus said:
Sure he is. History is full of it. For thousands of years most cultures have placed women as property (of husbands or fathers). In some cultures a woman on her period is "untouchable" lest you get "Cooties (Menstrual Edition)" TM.
That's just a couple examples that still apply today as they did in ages long past.
Perhaps not quite so bad as it once was, though. Though historically, there would be much more than a thousand years of oppression.
Aaron Sylvester said:
Don't get me wrong, criticism has it's place. Go nuts with criticizing and complaining about XYZ game for having "too much" adolescent pandering or titillation. Just know that your criticism will never make such games go away, or even reduce in volume
And you're free to keep making this copypasta statement. Just know that that's by and large not the overall goal. That's more what the people screaming about feminism and critique are afraid will happen. That the big bad feminists are going to take their games away. Perhaps you should remind them, instead.
Thats a bit unfair, it got mentioned once, and while it wasn't shot down the concept behinds it was badly wrong.... I should've dared the poster who said that to tell me where my vanity comes from.....
Thats a bit unfair, it got mentioned once, and while it wasn't shot down the concept behinds it was badly wrong.... I should've dared the poster who said that to tell me where my vanity comes from.....
I just think it's a little funny what with the recent outrage with gamers being all lumped in together we're still okay with generalising large groups of people.
I get it, people are human, humans generalise. We could try and be more self-aware, though.
Yeah totally this.
I don't care what men find sexy or attractive. I care when I'm expected to have it shoved in my face in a bunch of games. I don't care. Make it more equal, tone it down, add more man-butts, whatever you wanna do.
I have no interest in shaming guys for what they find attractive. I do have an interest in viewing other things, including things I personally find attractive or maybe just other shit.
Definitely something we can agree on. I think we will eventually get enough games in the future to where everyone is happy to have something that validates them or a part of them.
And I'm just fighting back not to crack up from that picture.
Phasmal said:
I just think it's a little funny what with the recent outrage with gamers being all lumped in together we're still okay with generalising large groups of people.
I get it, people are human, humans generalise. We could try and be more self-aware, though.
So....don't feel bad? FFS, I'm one of those evil feminists people on this website are so scared of ruining the hobby, and I have a sizable porn collection. We just had a thread with teh wimminz and teh feminists defending porn from dudes who called it degrading and whatnot.
Yeah totally this.
I don't care what men find sexy or attractive. I care when I'm expected to have it shoved in my face in a bunch of games. I don't care. Make it more equal, tone it down, add more man-butts, whatever you wanna do.
I have no interest in shaming guys for what they find attractive. I do have an interest in viewing other things, including things I personally find attractive or maybe just other shit.
Oh wow people in this thread debating where `womens vanity` comes from.
Kind of a fundamental flaw in this whole thing, yes.
Every time someone pulls up this very literal definition of misogyny (and honestly, dictionary definitions are fine, but they're the starting point, not the end all), I'm reminded of the clip of Klan members, fully robed and hooded that they showed on the Daily Show a couple of months ago who insisted they totes weren't racist and actually took umbrage at the notion. I don't know the original source of the clip, but this is a real thing. Just because you might not label yourself something, even in your frankest moments, doesn't particularly mean anything.
grassgremlin said:
I hate the idea of feeling bad for having my porn or fulfilling my carnal interests. That's shame culture, right there.
So....don't feel bad? FFS, I'm one of those evil feminists people on this website are so scared of ruining the hobby, and I have a sizable porn collection. We just had a thread with teh wimminz and teh feminists defending porn from dudes who called it degrading and whatnot.
I am not a misogynist. I relate better to women, I was raised mostly by women, and I've never really related to any men I've ever known. Being transgendered, I even think of myself as a woman, or at the very least not a man. Men are alien to me, and in my own family men have treated me like utter garbage because I didn't act "normal." So when I say I believe Anita Sarkeesian is not a true feminist but a female sexist (not to debate it here), it has nothing to do with what I personally have between my legs. I have simply played the games she cites, and know from context that she rips the scenes (and youtubers intentionally doing misogynist things) completely out of context to fit the paradigm that all these games go out of their way to make women property.
The reason I even discuss this flamebait is to say this: sexual desire can exist apart from objectification as long as that person's entire being is not being ignored to make that person a sex object. Can I find a person sexy AND have a meaningful friendship with that person? Yes. How do I know? I've done it. I'm doing it right now. Maybe it's because I'm not "normal," but I seem to not see sex the same as anyone else I talk to. I've only ever seen it as a thing to do, not a purpose. Unless you work in "that" industry, then sex is a purpose, but you get what I mean.
On the other hand, I am a Grammar Nazi. I am here to take you to ze grammar concentration camp, OP. Come quietly, und ze fanfiction vill not be harmed.
Holy shit, some of the "arguments" here are in desperate need of this picture:
I'm endlessly amused at the lack of any empirical evidence of half of the opinions espoused here, while these same people simultaneously bemoan the lack of empirical evidence for the opinion they are supposedly arguing against.
Principle: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. [source: Psychology: From Inquiry to Understanding, Lilienfeld et al. 2012]
Oberg's Dictum: Premise that we should keep our minds open, but not so open as to believe everything. [source: Psychology: From Inquiry to Understanding, Lilienfeld et al. 2012]
If you make a claim, back it the fuck up with empirical evidence. And then you shut the fuck up when your evidence is challenged by other evidence. Then you take that evidence and you learn and apply and you find more evidence for your point of view, and apply it to your own beliefs. Eventually, through a long and sustained process of evidence research, you'll either confirm your own beliefs while being open to them being changed, or your belief will change, while still being open to it changing further.
"But no, wait. That's too hard. I want to be right, and I want it right now, so someone else's arguments will do. I'm too brainless to form my own opinion based on education and research, I'll let some jagoff with a persecution complex do it for me."
Disingenuous much?
OT: So basically, the centrist feminist argument (or one of) of "make various media that can appeal to all no matter race, class, creed, gender etc" is what you're asking for? Because I can get behind that.
[Edit: I really should stop using "half of the x" so much. Hyperbole is addictive.]
I sort of agree with this. Honestly, it's probably that same sexual repression that we have these issues, but it does ask another question. Japan seems to be open with sex if it's manga and video game products are any indication, but, I've heard somewhere that they still have to deal with crimes of sexual assault and other such things.
.
I to the impression it was the opposite....Japan is very conservative and their "stuff" isn't exactly indicitve of day to day life
an interesting "vibe" I get from Hentai is the prevalence of "Dubious Consent" there seems to be this thing of "I want to have sex but I'm going to pretend I actually don't because custom requires it"
trunkage said:
2. Women are still obsessed with how they look. I'm the only male at my work, and I find that everyone else is very obsessed with how they look and if they can find a male to look after them. Like they don't have any other value. It bums me out how females don't realise they aren't help those stereotype that are out there.
I'm not saying those sterotpyes aren't....questionable, but there is this habbit of looking down or dismissing "femininity" as though male centrism is inherently superior
if those women are as stereotypical/ambitionless as you say (you may be interpereting them that way) that's still perfectly fine if that's what they want,
Aaron Sylvester said:
. Go nuts with criticizing and complaining about XYZ game for having "too much" adolescent pandering or titillation. Just know that your criticism will never make such games go away, or even reduce in volume
is it utterly nessicary for things to be overtly male gazy all the time? I don't mean just attractive...most fictional character are conventionally attractive by default
like...people found Elizabeth from BI attractive and (by extension) sexy. And she spent most of the game in a relitivly normal outfit....her corset was a little busty (IMO) but I doubt it would have made much of a difference for people liking her....people LOVE ellie from LOU and Alyx vance..yet they didn't need a "make over" like Ashley from ME3 got
I mean dead or alive is...its own niche thing...that's fine no one in their right mind would bother complaining about that
"Misogynist: a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.
How many of you can honestly say that you fit this criteria?"
I would have never in my life thought I would fit the definition of a Miso. However as I am exposed to more and more of todays hate filled anti male poison from so called feminists, Im thinking of giving it a whirl.
If "yes" is the answer to all 4 of the above, then such tropes/etc will continue being produced for the foreseeable future (#1 being key). And I see nothing wrong with that. I hope most logical people would agree.
Don't get me wrong, criticism has it's place. Go nuts with criticizing and complaining about XYZ game for having "too much" adolescent pandering or titillation. Just know that your criticism will never make such games go away, or even reduce in volume
But criticism does change things. Steve Jaros a Saints Row developer recently said that he accepted Anita's criticism of his games, saying "This is something we all should be better at." Anthony Burch the writer of borderlands 2 has stated he tries to include better representation in the games he writes. There misogynistic games that make money but they don't make money because they are misogynistic, and a little critical perspective can help game developers make their games better for everyone.
I'd say lacking a fair amount of independence and being barred out of all major roles for the most part of human history is oppression...yes
I ain't complaing I'm just saying...that's pretty much what it is
[quote/]Also, women vanity stems from their biological imperative to find a mate.
Again, not to be That Guy, but to dismiss our basic urges and instincts is to deny science. Just like men have a biological urge to jizz everywhere and fight over stupid crap, women have a biological urge to attract the most suitable mate and have babies.
.[/quote]
you CANNOT tell me living in a culture that places emphasis on a woman's appearance above all else isn't gonna have a "little" effect on your outlook?
[quote/]women welcome so long as they come to game and not ***** about games something they don't really care about and have no vested interest in.[/quote]not only condescending, generalising but also pulling some serious "fake girl gamer" shit right there
[quote/]objectification a word that means nothing in the context in which it is used.[/quote]
objectify= view someone as a sexual object. Generally apparently when you put them in a Bikini for no reason
[quote/]sexuality in men and women is cool, only feminists hate that.[/quote]
womens sexuality is often less apparent due to how male centric our society is, most modern mainstream femenists no "not" belive that. Sex positivity is more common, but that means womans sexuality on her own terms and not "female sexuality as seen and fantasies about by men" (eg most mainstream lesbian porn))
[quote/]you can like what the fuck you want, so long as you don't force me to conform to what you find sexually appealing and i wont do the same to you.
.[/quote]
except you know if 99% of media is overtly full of TA from a male-gazy POV then...it does feel like its being shoved down my throat a little
is it utterly nessicary for things to be overtly male gazy all the time? I don't mean just attractive...most fictional character are conventionally attractive by default
like...people found Elizabeth from BI attractive and (by extension) sexy. And she spent most of the game in a relitivly normal outfit....her corset was a little busty (IMO) but I doubt it would have made much of a difference for people liking her....people LOVE ellie from LOU and Alyx vance..yet they didn't need a "make over" like Ashley from ME3 got
I mean dead or alive is...its own niche thing...that's fine no one in their right mind would bother complaining about that
This may be just me, but I don't think Grassgremlin was saying such a thing, or at least not making the implication. I think that we can all agree that not everything has to be gazy all the time, especially since alternatives are starting to take a step into the spotlight of mainstream gaming. In fact, I half of the time would argue for a more niche market for people who do like such content in their entertainment.
Funny how I still haven't gotten those games you listed even though I have had an interest in them for a while now.
This may be just me, but I don't think Grassgremlin was saying such a thing, or at least not making the implication. I think that we can all agree that not everything has to be gazy all the time, especially since alternatives are starting to take a step into the spotlight of mainstream gaming. In fact, I half of the time would argue for a more niche market for people who do like such content in their entertainment.
Funny how I still haven't gotten those games you listed even though I have had an interest in them for a while now.
the funny thing is for all this talk of skimpy outfits I haven't SEEN an example of a "bash my head against my desk" inducing character design since Ashley from ME3
I'm far more concerned with our place in the story than what were wearing (because that's the bigger issue right now)
"Misogynist: a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women."
Uh... with that definition I want to say 'yes i am', but there's an implication there that a misogynist ONLY dislikes women, or dislikes them BECAUSE they're women. I dislike most people. Most people are dicks.
Uh... with that definition I want to say 'yes i am', but there's an implication there that a misogynist ONLY dislikes women, or dislikes them BECAUSE they're women. I dislike most people. Most people are dicks.
Uh... with that definition I want to say 'yes i am', but there's an implication there that a misogynist ONLY dislikes women, or dislikes them BECAUSE they're women. I dislike most people. Most people are dicks.
On and on with the lazy writing arguments and the usual keyboard warriors come bursting in. I say simply balking at the very usage of a old trope rather than discussing HOW said trope is employed is fast becoming a lazy criticism.
Look, with or without this sex tropes shit stirring online for the past 2-3 years, character depiction was frankly bound to grow in video games anyways with the changing trends in dev demographics in the future. The strictly carved out bro-appeal scene that MS fostered wasn't going to dominate the scene forever. we have an entertainment scene here thats more openly acceptable of schlock and exploitation than other mediums which are quick to throw out NC-17s and project shame amongst certain types of stories and ideas, that shouldn't be entertained when people still watch them in private.
We know why game writing lacks in general. Designers build levels and assets first and toss writers in to fill plot gaps instead of getting writers in from the start and working from a fully realized script.
Still, the goal of a game is different from a MOVIE. Sure they could use more depth and context, but they're not explicitly obligated to. How far they've come, and all things considered I would not consider a colossal failure in narrative.
A movie will live or die on its script or characters because its ONLY job is to present a convincing narrative. A game can use anything from relatable, abstract and profound stuff and including cheap ass sexploitation and pandering to motivate a player towards a certain action.
Motivations don't have to be always be truly noble, they can be low brow and fantasized, especially in games that premise themselves in fantasy. That is the goal of story in video games, to prompt action. We can crticize the methods but all tools and devices are on the table. If a dev decides were going to be filthy and based from the get go, but they give some characters with dignity thats it. Case closed.
Ones goal, present a narrative
Other goal, prompt player action.
Two different goals. Thats why schlocky stuff is more commonly acceptable in games.
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