Most video games star white males.
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Oh boy you certainly know how to cause a uproar over minor stuff (first that retro Elder Scroll cover and now this).
Ok yes this issue isn't exactly small but last time I've check it's nowhere near alarming compare to stuff like violence games encourage violence behivours in children.
You said that most games got a white male lead but at least there are still some game with a non white male lead (e.g. Prince of Persia, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas and Prototype 2).
What do you want? An equel amount? Even then the main character race shouldn't be that much of a factor to the game success (unless it sometime to do with the setting) nor should it matter when you playing a game to have fun (unless you want a hero figure to look up to).
Ok yes this issue isn't exactly small but last time I've check it's nowhere near alarming compare to stuff like violence games encourage violence behivours in children.
You said that most games got a white male lead but at least there are still some game with a non white male lead (e.g. Prince of Persia, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas and Prototype 2).
What do you want? An equel amount? Even then the main character race shouldn't be that much of a factor to the game success (unless it sometime to do with the setting) nor should it matter when you playing a game to have fun (unless you want a hero figure to look up to).
I would totally hang out with mite whales. They'd be tiny, and I'd keep them in a fish tank.Andy Shandy said:
Could it be that the majority of the western population is white (SHOCK AND HORROR) and that the biggest video game market is the western male. Not counting in the fact that because the majority is white then the majority of western developers are also white (and males) (AGAIN SHOCK AND HORROR) so they write what they know.
So it doesn't matter if it's always a guy then why does it, in fact, HAVE to be a guy. If you see what I was trying to say.GrandmaFunk said:
If the protagonist is interchangeable then the developers can put their creative hat on and go wild.
Because it doesn't matter.
I have a headache...
Those of you using the demographic reason. Do you really want the creativity of the industry to stagnate purely on the reason of marketing value? :< Seems kind of sad to me.
I totally read that in Fluttershy's voice lol.Aris Khandr said:I would totally hang out with mite whales. They'd be tiny, and I'd keep them in a fish tank.
I don't think it's us (those using the reason) saying that we want creativity to stagnate, just that the OP shouldn't be accusing developers of racism just for aiming at the demographic.xXxJessicaxXx said:
Well, part of the time. Some writers go out of their way to write characters of a different race than them. I once knew a guy who would determine the race, gender, and sexuality of his protagonists by rolling a set of dice, and then plan the story accordingly.Aris Khandr said:
Ah okay fair enough, I don't think the dev's do it out of racism at all. Just as you said marketing, risk and other monetary issues.Andy Shandy said:
To anyone that says "OH IT'S NOT AN ISSUE!". I'll leave this here:
... it's also creatively bankrupt. Seriously, try to guess which character I'm talking about: grizzly 30-something muscular white man with short brown hair.
...Yeah...
That said, this is less a "RACISM!!" issue as some people make it out to be, and more of a "cultural singlemindedness" issue. Together with a marketing issue.
...Let's face it, most people in game development are 20 to 40 something year old white men that wish they could be those characters, marketing mostly to 15 to 40 white males who wish they could be those characters... you get the picture.
In other words, it's less of an issue than one of the sides makes it out to be, but more of an issue than the opposite side claims.
... it's also creatively bankrupt. Seriously, try to guess which character I'm talking about: grizzly 30-something muscular white man with short brown hair.
...Yeah...
That said, this is less a "RACISM!!" issue as some people make it out to be, and more of a "cultural singlemindedness" issue. Together with a marketing issue.
...Let's face it, most people in game development are 20 to 40 something year old white men that wish they could be those characters, marketing mostly to 15 to 40 white males who wish they could be those characters... you get the picture.
In other words, it's less of an issue than one of the sides makes it out to be, but more of an issue than the opposite side claims.
I really don't think that racism is to blame for most video games starring white males. It's probably due to, as many many people have mentioned, the game developers being white and being able to relate to other white males. And while I don't think it is a problem as far as racism is concerned I am getting really tired of devs putting in brown haired, white, mid 20's-30 year olds, who wisecrack, are smartasses, genius puzzle solvers and skilled at everything from fucking women to firing a mini-gun.
Yeah that's basically the point I was trying to make. It's mostly a problem with creativity and playing it safe. I loved that video btw.Caliostro said:
I'm going to let you in on a little clue. This is not the only medium that this happens, and it is not limited to the 80's when Mario and Link jumped onto the scene.
Let's be honest, how many book, movies, television shows have a main, or even central character that is something besides a white person. Yeah, Buffy had D.B. Woodside, but only at the end. Angel had J. August Richard's from the first season on, but again he was the token black guy. Battlestar? Well there was that black cylon who shows up in like 10 episodes. Skulls and Racetrack had the black guy, but he was so important I can't remember which one he was. I could go on and on and on.
Did you know that Neo was originally supposed to be Black? Will Smith was slated to portray Neo but backed out due to scheduling. Hollywood feared that a black guy that was not Will Smith couldn't carry the movie so they instead went with Keanu (instead of someone like Taye Diggs or countless other great black actors.) The latest X-Men movie had a black guy and a VERY white looking black chick. Guess who died and guess who ended up switching sides.
Look at fiction. When is there a black character? Usually when he has to be black. Tom Robinson could only be tried because he was black. Same with Carl Lee Hailey in "A Time to Kill" Huck Finn had to run away with Jim.
I mentioned comics earlier. They are getting better but let's look at the big name black heroes. John Steward Green Lantern started as the afroed, jive talking black power stereotype that claimed he wasn't no "Green Lantern. I'm the Black Lantern." Powerman was the same way. Hell, they have a hero named "Black Panther" from Wakanda. They might as well as called him Black Guy from Blackistan. He is what happens when a bunch of white guys gather in a room and try to sell some comics to black kids. Luckily the comic industry has been maturing and they are now writing these characters not as just stereotypes but as individuals with depth and character growth beyond blacksploitation.
You can cross this over into real life. How many black quarterbacks start in the NFL? Cam Newton crushed most of Peyton Manning's rookie records this year, yet Peyton went into the NFL as a can't miss prospect and Cam was considered a risk, not worth the #1 overall pick. Peyton had talent, smarts, and a good arm while Cam was "Athletic" or code for someone who can run the ball and maybe take a hit, but can't survive long term in the NFL AKA a black quarterback. Vick is considered a threat because he can run the ball, not because he can pass it (FYI, he can) and Tavaris Jackson is considered nothing more than a stop gap until Seatle can get themselves a "real QB" (To be fair Jackson has proven to be mediocre at times, and bad at others)
What it boils down to is that the average consumer is, or was, white males. Media is designed for them. Other mediums of entertainment have the "black" genre. Tyler Perry will continue to makes movies and television and whites will say, "see, you have your black thing. It's fair." Books can be written by black authors, and comics now have a wide enough readership and are cheap enough to make that they can include black characters.
Video games are expensive. Companies don't want to lose money so they go with the "sure thing" and have a late teen to mid 30's white protagonist in the hopes that all the white little boys will want to be him and all the rest will put up with it because there are little to no alternatives.
In closing there are very few games that actually offend me with racism. (AAA titles. I am sure there are some poorly made indie games designed to stir up racial hatred. I don't play those) RE5. Not because it took place in Africa. Not because I was shooting black guys. It pissed me off when I went into the swamps and was attacked by "Zombie Tribesmen." They were one step away from being an old Looney Tunes black face stereotype. The other is any time Square Enix tries to have a black character and they end up being dumb hulking men with ghetto mouths that fire their chain-gun arm into the air because they stubbed their toe or the toast burnt. Or they end up being some gangly afroed thing from the 70's instead of, you know, just a guy who happens to be black.
Let's be honest, how many book, movies, television shows have a main, or even central character that is something besides a white person. Yeah, Buffy had D.B. Woodside, but only at the end. Angel had J. August Richard's from the first season on, but again he was the token black guy. Battlestar? Well there was that black cylon who shows up in like 10 episodes. Skulls and Racetrack had the black guy, but he was so important I can't remember which one he was. I could go on and on and on.
Did you know that Neo was originally supposed to be Black? Will Smith was slated to portray Neo but backed out due to scheduling. Hollywood feared that a black guy that was not Will Smith couldn't carry the movie so they instead went with Keanu (instead of someone like Taye Diggs or countless other great black actors.) The latest X-Men movie had a black guy and a VERY white looking black chick. Guess who died and guess who ended up switching sides.
Look at fiction. When is there a black character? Usually when he has to be black. Tom Robinson could only be tried because he was black. Same with Carl Lee Hailey in "A Time to Kill" Huck Finn had to run away with Jim.
I mentioned comics earlier. They are getting better but let's look at the big name black heroes. John Steward Green Lantern started as the afroed, jive talking black power stereotype that claimed he wasn't no "Green Lantern. I'm the Black Lantern." Powerman was the same way. Hell, they have a hero named "Black Panther" from Wakanda. They might as well as called him Black Guy from Blackistan. He is what happens when a bunch of white guys gather in a room and try to sell some comics to black kids. Luckily the comic industry has been maturing and they are now writing these characters not as just stereotypes but as individuals with depth and character growth beyond blacksploitation.
You can cross this over into real life. How many black quarterbacks start in the NFL? Cam Newton crushed most of Peyton Manning's rookie records this year, yet Peyton went into the NFL as a can't miss prospect and Cam was considered a risk, not worth the #1 overall pick. Peyton had talent, smarts, and a good arm while Cam was "Athletic" or code for someone who can run the ball and maybe take a hit, but can't survive long term in the NFL AKA a black quarterback. Vick is considered a threat because he can run the ball, not because he can pass it (FYI, he can) and Tavaris Jackson is considered nothing more than a stop gap until Seatle can get themselves a "real QB" (To be fair Jackson has proven to be mediocre at times, and bad at others)
What it boils down to is that the average consumer is, or was, white males. Media is designed for them. Other mediums of entertainment have the "black" genre. Tyler Perry will continue to makes movies and television and whites will say, "see, you have your black thing. It's fair." Books can be written by black authors, and comics now have a wide enough readership and are cheap enough to make that they can include black characters.
Video games are expensive. Companies don't want to lose money so they go with the "sure thing" and have a late teen to mid 30's white protagonist in the hopes that all the white little boys will want to be him and all the rest will put up with it because there are little to no alternatives.
In closing there are very few games that actually offend me with racism. (AAA titles. I am sure there are some poorly made indie games designed to stir up racial hatred. I don't play those) RE5. Not because it took place in Africa. Not because I was shooting black guys. It pissed me off when I went into the swamps and was attacked by "Zombie Tribesmen." They were one step away from being an old Looney Tunes black face stereotype. The other is any time Square Enix tries to have a black character and they end up being dumb hulking men with ghetto mouths that fire their chain-gun arm into the air because they stubbed their toe or the toast burnt. Or they end up being some gangly afroed thing from the 70's instead of, you know, just a guy who happens to be black.
Ugh what's next will we complain about hair colours? More Red Heads in games woo/any other colour. The only time is a problem is when it feels artificial and forced along with the character being stereotypical with no redeeming qualities.
I think that a lot of people hear "white privilege" and, because they're not clear as to what is meant, they hear it as some kind of accusation, like it's a personal failing. It's not; your privilege is the advantages you have simply by virtue of being who you are, you can't help it, and we're all more or less privileged in some way or another.
If you are white, you have privilege over someone who is black, because you are not likely to be singled out for abuse because of your colour, or stopped by the police based on racial profiling, or discriminated against in education or employment. If one group of people are getting less than their fair share, that means another group is getting more, and that's privilege.
This isn't your fault, you can't help it, but it is pigheaded and ignorant to deny racism still exists and that white people benefit from it.
When people say things like, "oh, but it's a market driven decision, most gamers are white males so it makes sense that most characters are white males" all you're saying is you think it's OK to pander to racists. By simply making this statement, you're not only saying that racism exists but that it's OK to not challenge it.
When it comes to characters in films, television or video games, I think it's fair that equality will be achieved when the representation of different races or ethnicities more or less mirrors that of the society that produces it. So, when games made by US houses have about 12% black, 17% latino and 5% asian characters, then we can stop talking about racial privilege and racist underrepresentation. Until then, don't give me any crap about being colourblind. All you're being is blind to your own advantages.
If you are white, you have privilege over someone who is black, because you are not likely to be singled out for abuse because of your colour, or stopped by the police based on racial profiling, or discriminated against in education or employment. If one group of people are getting less than their fair share, that means another group is getting more, and that's privilege.
This isn't your fault, you can't help it, but it is pigheaded and ignorant to deny racism still exists and that white people benefit from it.
When people say things like, "oh, but it's a market driven decision, most gamers are white males so it makes sense that most characters are white males" all you're saying is you think it's OK to pander to racists. By simply making this statement, you're not only saying that racism exists but that it's OK to not challenge it.
When it comes to characters in films, television or video games, I think it's fair that equality will be achieved when the representation of different races or ethnicities more or less mirrors that of the society that produces it. So, when games made by US houses have about 12% black, 17% latino and 5% asian characters, then we can stop talking about racial privilege and racist underrepresentation. Until then, don't give me any crap about being colourblind. All you're being is blind to your own advantages.
My (black) girlfriend noticed this and was pissed off. I tried explaining that X-Men: First Class was a prequel story to an established fictional universe and, for right or wrong, the source material has precious few people of colour in it. Basically the producers had two choices: either feature NO black characters (Storm was only a child at the time, remember) or insert a non-canon black character who would by necessity have to not make it to the end of the film. Personally I think they chose the better option... but it was bound to annoy some people, anyway. The latino/filipino girl who turns traitor - eh, maybe they could have handled that a bit more delicately, but again, they were working within the constraints of established fiction. What's next, is Lord of The Rings racist for not having any black hobbits?kloiberin_time said:
Anyway, back on topic: Oh look, this thread again.
According to the OP, videogames are racist. Well, not overly racist, but they perpetuate a white agenda, which is itself racist. Anybody who defends games as they currently stand is either an acknowledged racist or a subconscious racist (which is, like, totally worse). Thanks for the guilt trip, I appreciate it!
Game protagonists are mostly white males. This statement is still true if you change the medium to movies or adventure novels. This reflects, in order of relevance:
1) The race and gender of who makes the games
2) The race and gender of who buys and plays the games
3) The prevalent racial majority in the country the game is marketed in and the need for protagonists to be iconic, tabula rasa self-insertion points.
4) The context of the game's setting
5) Marketing ploys
...
2,193,764) An evil plot to repress racial minorities, women, the handicapped and the LGBT community through the medium of video games.
Seriously, give it a break. Diversity is nice, and if it adds to the game then it should be unconditionally welcomed. Playing as an Asian female in Mirror's Edge didn't spoil my enjoyment of the game one iota, nor did I break down in a blubbery, tearful, snot-nosed, clammy-fist-pounding rage when asked to assume the role of a 12th Century Middle-Eastern assassin in Assassin's Creed. I don't ask to play as a more muscular and physically able version of my real-life (white male) self in every single game, because that would be terribly boring and crucially obliterates the fact that escapism and role-play are an important facet of gaming. But the minute videogames start becoming sterile, politically-correct, quota-ticking tools of corrective social education, is the minute I throw my Xbox in the bin and take up fox hunting as a hobby.
no..mass effect isnt...thats all interchangable so It doesnt count..LilithSlave said:
also Altair isnt 100% white
and disturbing? pfffft PLEASE thats american entertainemnt for you....still has to cater to a certain audience (but in this case that auidiece is still more defined)
Okay, racism is definitely bad. I agree with that. Video games consistently having white protagonists over any other race is also a very bad thing. I am even willing to pin it on subconscious racist leanings that can and will only be overcome through a conscious effort to act contrary to them. But Lilith, you have argued your case in such a manner that I am ashamed to say that I share this opinion with you, and a similar line of reasoning.
However, I do feel that you made some good points and that this thread does have discussion value, so I will place my replies in the spoiler tags below as well as a little advice on how you could have worded your posts.
Your point is valid, but your list is bad. Try using the image Jessica posted later in the thread.
You have no idea how angry I was when I read this post. I seriously spent the next few minutes considering ways I could curse you out here, but in the end I didn't. If you're trying to not look like a troll, you should change this clearly inflammatory and blatantly wrong post.
tldr; I think you made some excellent points and I mostly agree with you lilith. I think that if you change your wording you can bring some discussion value back to this.
However, I do feel that you made some good points and that this thread does have discussion value, so I will place my replies in the spoiler tags below as well as a little advice on how you could have worded your posts.
As others have already pointed out, your list contains many games that possess major characters of different races, a few where the protagonist isn't even human, a few where the protagonist doesn't have to be white (though the marketing does portray them as such), and a few where the protagonist is quite clearly of a different race.LilithSlave said:
Your point is valid, but your list is bad. Try using the image Jessica posted later in the thread.
I am one of them, though I avoid meaningless terms like white privilege. You should try restating your arguments while avoiding the terminology of social justice courses, or at least explain what you mean by them.LilithSlave said:
I agree with everything you stated in this one. Make your arguments sound more like this. This is literally the most sense you made in this entire thread and I cannot agree more. There is far more to racism than conscious subjugation and we should make quite the fuss about the lack of different races within our media, mostly so that they will realize it as well. It takes me a lot of effort to not make all of my characters white males when I am imagining them, but I feel so much more fulfilled when I avoid my natural tendency to do so.LilithSlave said:
Good points but too much meaningless dogma. Once again I would advise you to change the wording here. Perhaps explain how or why social groups unintentionally favoring white people is a bad thing.LilithSlave said:
I'm going to get back to a piece of this post, but I must say that I do largely agree with you here as well. People do ignore their own racist notions quite often.LilithSlave said:
Here is the part of your posts that most irritates me and is the only thing you said which I wholeheartedly disagree with. Brunettes do not, and should not, get pissed off because blondes have more fun. Sexual attraction is based on a massive number of issues, least among them being racism. If you want to try to pin this on racism inherent in society and society's poor idealized image of what kind of women are sexually attractive, then you may have a case. On an individual level though, I cannot, and never will believe you. There is a difference between not finding a set of physical characteristics attractive and racism.LilithSlave said:
You have no idea how angry I was when I read this post. I seriously spent the next few minutes considering ways I could curse you out here, but in the end I didn't. If you're trying to not look like a troll, you should change this clearly inflammatory and blatantly wrong post.
I hope you do return to change the posts you made, because you are making some excellent points, but are being pointlessly inflammatory.LilithSlave said: