MovieBob's thoughts on the ME3 ending controversy

[Fox242]

This is the guy who got excited for Super Mario Land 3D.

He's either exaggerating everything he says for humor purposes or he's dipping into his fanboy rage, so take it with a grain of salt, eh? I mean "setting back gaming a decade?" "Making coloring books when [Bioware] could be making the Mona Lisa?" Really? The worst thing to happen since Sega stopped making consoles. That's just cute. He's either pulling your leg or he's got a bad case of nostalgia-blindness.

Either way I get the feeling there's a "Big Picture" episode in the near future where he uses pisses about it for 5 minutes, chewing out the entire squad while the Gomer Pyle troll sits in the corner eating his jelly doughnut.

It's nostalgia blindness with this elitist fuck. If he's trolling everyone then I would be very surprised. This is the same guy who declared Metroid: Other M to have developed a great backstory for Samus and that it was better than the Metroid Prime series. This is also the same guy who said that Bungie was being racist with its depiction of the Spartans and the Covenant. His head is so far up his own ass, I'm surprised that so many people are finally figuring it out.

 

[OrpheusTelos]

'It's art!' is the most pathetic defence for anything ever. So what? Just because it's 'art' doesn't mean it's not open to criticism or challenge or God forbid revision. I guess Charles Dickens rewriting the ending to Great Expectations threw literature back a decade too? Jesus Christ. The word 'art' is the most transparent shield imaginable.

Few things are examined as closely, or criticised as thoroughly as art. Art isn't or shouldn't be a defense to criticism or inspection. If anything, it's an invitation. If people use it as a shield, they're wrong.


However, art is dictated by the authorial mandate of its creator(s). Admirers of a piece of art should not possess editorial power over it. The problem with this whole ME3 debacle is that instead of people saying more reasonable things such as "We though the ending was bad, because of this or that.", they are saying things like "Jesus Christ, this ending is so horrendous, we want you to change it, and you should because you owe us because this is a product, we're the customer, and we don't like it."

This is also why it's disappointing to see Bioware potentially cave in. What's happening is that if they decide to change the ending, they are not doing so based on a discussion with the fans in which the fans demand nothing. Instead, they're changing it because of an incredibly vocal part of the community that outright demands changes to the ending.

I will quote what is probably the best summation of this whole thing I've read so far:

Artist advertises a pictures of an apple

Buyer commissions picture of an apple

Ends up with picture of a fork

Buyer complains that he wants a picture of an apple

Artist says reviewers loved the picture of the fork, which he gave them for free

More Buyers complain that they want picture of an apple, not the picture of a fork.

Artist says he might make a transparency add on, that might have an apple that people can put on their picture of the fork.

Some Buyers are ok with that, because they can get the picture of the apple, other buyers say that the complainers are ruining the picture of the fork.

Some Internet reviewers say the complainers have ruined the artistic integrity of the artist for making him draw an apple add on to the fork picture.


True Story

We were promised a specific thing for the ending. More importantly, we were promised that the ending wouldn't be the exact thing we got. People like me are pissed about this and want what we paid for.

No. No. No no no.

Alright, children, here's the thing. You see, when someone wants you to buy their video game, they do this thing known as 'marketing hyperbole.' You see, hyperbole lets them put a positive spin on their products, so that people will want to buy them! Isn't that nice! Buuut, sometimes they are EXAGGERATING, which is a big long word that means they MADE THINGS SOUND BETTER THAN THEY REALLY WERE. This is a big mean thing to do, but it happens.

Now, kiddies, if a writer makes a story, then it is their story. You absolutely have the right to complain about it if you don't like how the story plays out. But it is still the creative work of the author. Not you.

So, remember, children. Anyone with the slightest bit of foresight could tell that the Mass Effect trilogy wouldn't be what it was hyped up to be. Feel free to complain about it, though.

 

[Yeager942]

Artist advertises a pictures of an apple

Buyer commissions picture of an apple

Ends up with picture of a fork

Buyer complains that he wants a picture of an apple

Artist says reviewers loved the picture of the fork, which he gave them for free

More Buyers complain that they want picture of an apple, not the picture of a fork.

Artist says he might make a transparency add on, that might have an apple that people can put on their picture of the fork.

Some Buyers are ok with that, because they can get the picture of the apple, other buyers say that the complainers are ruining the picture of the fork.

Some Internet reviewers say the complainers have ruined the artistic integrity of the artist for making him draw an apple add on to the fork picture.


True Story

I fucking lol'd. I want to post this on BSN and credit it to you.

 

[CAPTCHA]

Look, a medium can produce ART or it can produce PRODUCT. If games can be changed at the whims of fanboys, then they are just product and we have no right to demand that Ebert etc take them (or US) "seriously."

I've not read all the thread so maybe this has already come up, but the above comment holds no water what-so-ever. Art IS a product if it is created and sold as one. I feel somehow that Bob is inventing new meanings to these words to get across a point however; something akin to lack of artistic integrity. Well integrity is personal to the individual. I'm don't have a working knowledge of law, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that whatever passes for integrity in a contractual sense has not being broken and therefor any changes they make are well within their rights to do so.

As for my thoughts on the change itself and the request for change:

In the case of a commissioned product, whether it be a game, a painting, a webpage, a building and everything inbetween, if it doesn't hold up to the expectations of the commissioner the creater it obliged to remake or alter the piece. Mass Effect however is not a commissioned work, it is a product that is being offered to the public. Unlike a commissioned work there is no obligation for the producer to alter the product. Any alterations therefore are made in goodwill. Is something done in goodwill to please the consumer a bad thing? I don't think so; quite the opposite in fact and as I already stated the integrity to do so is not in question.

 

[OrpheusTelos]

Eh. I usually like what MovieBob has to say, but he has always been way to into objectivism for my tastes.

Objectivism, and the idea of "an artists work is sacred and solely their own!!" is silly to begin with.

It's even sillier when applied to an interactive medium.

Here's a thing I don't understand. How does 'an artists work isn't their own', which is a false statement, relate in any way to 'interactive mediums'? Last I checked, stories were created the same way.

Why don't you explain that to me. That's a good little boy. Or rather, don't.

 

[The Youth Counselor]

I understand Bob and I understand the fans to a degree. However, rather than wanting to change the eneding, I wonder why people can't learn to vote with their wallets. I played ME 1 and ME 2. I did not like some things about ME3 (such as Origin only) so I decided that I would not purchase it.

Easier said than done when you've already purchased the game.

It's one thing when you know in advance about aspects of the product you consider to be negative (such as Origin) and can evaluate your purchasing decision appropriately.

It's another thing when you get told you'll have an array of endings that will reflect all your prior choices and provide closure and you get... this.

I'll be voting with my wallet when BioWare releases their next game if they don't do something to address this, but until then, I don't have that option.

I've seen this time and time again, the main point for contention for the "change-the-ending" crowd. "This is what someone said we were gonna get, and we didn't get it."

Have Mass Effect players never seen any other pre-release statements from developers before this? How many times have other developers told us "this game is gonna revolutionize the genre" or "this game's gonna have so-and-so". Welcome to the world of hype for the sake of sales. The rest of us stopped listening a long time ago.

Just because misleading pre-release statements are 'par for the course' does not make the behaviour accceptable.

It's more problematic than typical here because:

1) The fans are more invested than they are in your 'typical' video game.

2) The statements about the nature of the ending were rather specific, and a number were made after the game went gold [http://social.bioware.com/forum/Mass-Effect-3/Mass-Effect-3-Story-and-Campaign-Discussion-Spoilers-Allowed/Commentary-for-BioWare-on-false-advertising-10473356-1.html]. Just look at these three (sources available in the link):

There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it.

There are many different endings. We wouldn?t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can?t say any more than that?

[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.

Whoa!

Previously I was a little easy on Bioware because during development things change and developers need to be careful what they say to the press when their work is in progress, because things tested don't work out as originally intended.

But these statements were made just weeks before the release? I can actually understand why fans would file a FTC complaint, that's straight up lying to the consumer and deceptive.

 

[Starke]

Bullshit, do you actually know what games were released ten years ago?

Don't mistake "knowing" for "caring"

Let's look at the list of the biggest titles of 2002 on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_i... thought going back a decade was a bad thing.

 

[Asita]

No. No. No no no.

Alright, children, here's the thing. You see, when someone wants you to buy their video game, they do this thing known as 'marketing hyperbole.' You see, hyperbole lets them put a positive spin on their products, so that people will want to buy them! Isn't that nice! Buuut, sometimes they are EXAGGERATING, which is a big long word that means they MADE THINGS SOUND BETTER THAN THEY REALLY WERE. This is a big mean thing to do, but it happens.

Sorry, but that really doesn't hold up as a defense when A) False Advertising is actually illegal by most countries and B) press releases shortly before the game went on sale promised something intrinsically opposed to the end result, and that's not quite the same as just hyping the game.

Now, kiddies, if a writer makes a story, then it is their story. You absolutely have the right to complain about it if you don't like how the story plays out. But it is still the creative work of the author. Not you.

That might hold water if fans were saying "put MY ending in", but that's decidedly not what's happening. What's happening largely falls more in line with "Fix your ending, as its quality does not meet the standards we have come to expect from you", and that is as much within our rights as criticizing a painter's technique is.

Edit: whoops, thought I'd copied that quote header.

 

[Starke]

No. No. No no no.

Alright, children, here's the thing. You see, when someone wants you to buy their video game, they do this thing known as 'marketing hyperbole.' You see, hyperbole lets them put a positive spin on their products, so that people will want to buy them! Isn't that nice! Buuut, sometimes they are EXAGGERATING, which is a big long word that means they MADE THINGS SOUND BETTER THAN THEY REALLY WERE. This is a big mean thing to do, but it happens.

Sorry, but that really doesn't hold up as a defense when A) False Advertising is actually illegal by most countries and B) press releases shortly before the game went on sale promised something intrinsically opposed to the end result, and that's not quite the same as just hyping the game.

Yeah, this industry's been pushing further and further on this front. Thinking that unlimited hype will never come back to bite them. I'm not positive Mass Effect 3 is the critical mass that pushes it over the line into false advertising. But goddamn we're getting close to that line now.

 

[twohundredpercent]

lol I figured he'd say that. Being a pretentious person who sees it as their sworn duty to 'elevate' gaming into an artform accepted by everybody.

 

[Murmillos]

No. No. No no no.

Alright, children, here's the thing. You see, when someone wants you to buy their video game, they do this thing known as 'marketing hyperbole.' You see, hyperbole lets them put a positive spin on their products, so that people will want to buy them! Isn't that nice! Buuut, sometimes they are EXAGGERATING, which is a big long word that means they MADE THINGS SOUND BETTER THAN THEY REALLY WERE. This is a big mean thing to do, but it happens.

Now, kiddies, if a writer makes a story, then it is their story. You absolutely have the right to complain about it if you don't like how the story plays out. But it is still the creative work of the author. Not you.

So, remember, children. Anyone with the slightest bit of foresight could tell that the Mass Effect trilogy wouldn't be what it was hyped up to be. Feel free to complain about it, though.

How quaint, somebody else who doesn't know what they are talking about. I suggest you take a small reading of some quotes regarding the game development below.

That was a bit more then exaggerating, it was straight up, out right lying.

The statements about the nature of the ending were rather specific, and a number were made after the game went gold [http://social.bioware.com/forum/Mass-Effect-3/Mass-Effect-3-Story-and-Campaign-Discussion-Spoilers-Allowed/Commentary-for-BioWare-on-false-advertising-10473356-1.html]. Just look at these three (sources available in the link):

There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it.

There are many different endings. We wouldn?t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can?t say any more than that?

[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.

 

[lordmardok]

Really getting tired of all of these posts...

MovieBob is kind of a dick honestly, he's a crap movie reviewer and a crap game reviewer.

 

[lumenadducere]

I like MovieBob for his film reviews and film criticism, but considering he was one of the people that blindly said "herp, Metroid Other M is just fine" I'd take most things he says in regards to gaming with a huge grain of salt.

And I'd really like to point people to the dev quotes Murmillos posted above. Yes, it's promotional PR stuff, but everything they say is the exact opposite of what we got. No A, B, C ending? Oh wait, we actually literally got an A, B, or C ending. Rachin? Nope, just either a +100 or -100 on a list of numbers. Not forced into a bespoke ending? Actually yes, you literally get faced with an ending in which the only discernible difference is the color of the explosion that you see. There's a difference between hyping something up and blatantly lying and saying the OPPOSITE of what your end product contains. That's what happened here.

Look, I get the "artistic integrity" argument, but when companies like CD Project are adding content to their endings to flesh them out based on fan feedback, they don't get accused of selling out or caving and jeopardizing their integrity. But when BioWare does the same based on huge fan feedback and backlash, they get flak for it? No. I'm sorry, but you don't get to have it both ways. Either ALL companies modifying their ending in any way get thrashed for compromising their ideals, or none do.

And you want art in gaming? Look at Journey. Or The Stanley Parable. Or Braid. ME3 is fantastic, but at the end of the day it's more Shaun of the Dead than The Departed or The Curious Case of Benjamin Button. This whole "a medium can ONLY have art OR product" is complete and utter BS. Plenty of films are made that only conspire to be product and make a profit. Same with music and literature. To blindly categorize an entire medium into one OR the other is just as bad as blindly categorizing it into "not art."

And Bob really needs to check his sources. BioWare didn't "cave" at all - they said they'd be adding content to flesh out the endings without changing them. That's it. How exactly is that changing the endings again? Oh wait, it's not.

Seriously, the guy's great with film but when it comes to gaming he really needs to stop having tunnel vision.

 

[lordmardok]

Edit: Repeated Post.

 

[Imbechile]

Okay, I finally caved in.
FUCK ART, and fuck people showing games towards art.
All this obsession with art and other shit is the reason why gameplay in most games today is boring.

 

[lordmardok]

Whether or not you want games to be considered art instead of products (if indeed those two concepts are entirely mutually exclusive), the fact remains that this game was sold as a product, and many indications of the content of that product were given. Those indications turned out to be patent falsehoods, and consequently some consumers are upset. Apparently they can't have the product they were lead to believe they would receive, though, because that would violate "art".

We were lied to and that pissed us off. We have every right to BE pissed off. We were given an ending that made no sense from any standpoint, whether it's the standpoint of a movie critic viewing the storyline as a linear narrative, or from a gamer's point of view who wanted their choices to have an effect.

 

[lordmardok]

Honestly I don't know why this thread has so many posts. MovieBob is barely qualified to critique movie's in my opinion, he's certainly not up to the complicated task of critiquing games which, unlike movie's, have to hold attention for dozens of hours on end deliver a compelling narrative WHILE letting the player interact with the world and much more. He really has no say on how Games are done.

 

[Saltyk]

Then again, I haven't played Mass Effect 3. Yet.

So then why bother posting in a thread regarding Mass Effect 3 and the ending? Play it and then say something constructive otherwise what you've got to say has no value.

Because this isn't a thread about Mass Effect 3 and it's ending? Yeah, that's the option I choose to go with. Do I win?

 

[Emiscary]

The only real message I may take away from this whole affair is this: care less about things. Games, stories, life, eh. Expect disappointments like these in the future and you'll rarely be surprised. But you'll also avoid being crestfallen, so you might be better off.