Sure it is an "art Form" *says in Posh Snobby Accent* But is an interactive art and this is the game that we where promised that out decisions where going to mean a dam throughout the game. Calling us Crybabies is kinda low man.
MovieBob's thoughts on the ME3 ending controversy
- Thread starter Sentox6
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Well, in the good old days (renassance and classic greeks for example) the artistic creation belonged to whomever payed for it, and it was fine. If you didn't liked El Greko portrait of you and you comissioned it, then he would freaking change it; the current ides of "artistic ingegrity" understood as that an artist has the right over the work he sold have more in common with copyright laws than with what artist thought were their rights before the XX century. As for "the definition of art"... well, there is not one and currently it's used kind of a synonyms for whatever you like in the common speech.MrLumber said:
And why should the videogames be judged worthy or not of being art by how good are the worst of them, or how low can a company stumble at a point? Did we judge literary art by the common everyday writings or the best of them? Cinema? Music? If Bioware wants to redo the end, fine, if not, it's still fine; either way Bioware is not trying to do art with his games and it's unlikely that videogames in general get accepted as art or not based on what they do.
Sweet jesus thank youDevoneaux said:
I don't think i've wanted to punch some of these "ART ABOVE ALL" people so bad in the face before, dear god.
this ending is OBJECTIVELY complete trash, I'm not even going to call them endings because the way they are now, they are nearly identical that it doesn't even matter.
That is perhaps one of the greatest mental images anyone has ever given me, bravo to you good sir.Ultratwinkie said:
Anyway what were we talking about? Bob uses baseless hyperbolic absolute argument that everyone destroys? okay seems like a normal week on the escapist. Anyway art and products are not mutually exclusive and saying that is absolutely silly. Art is merely anything that was crafted by people with a message they want to tell. Of course they would try to make it amazing and entertaining so they could sell it so that it would be a sustainable thing to do.
I'm going to break away from a bunch of people and say that calling games art isn't going to make them better. mediocrity sells, trying to make games artier isn't going to suddenly bolster sales any great deal for the large companies so why waste the money? Mass effect is pretty pretentious anyway, hiding behind aspirations of being art in order to appeal to game enthusiasts. The thing is though instead of going "I have a vision that I feel videogames could really deliver" they went "I want to make a game that could be called art because then I'd be so super special awesome." The way the medium approaches being art is totally backwards and obnoxious. Mass Effect sacrificed the small amount of artistic integrity it had, so what? plenty of things have done that, nobody cares save for diehard fans?
Also why do we want videogames to be art? So people take them seriously? their opinion is irrelevant because they aren't going to play them. If somebody has a vision artistic games will be made, not this backwards notion of people without a vision looking at traditional art and going "how can we make our medium more like this?"
Like I said though why listen to Bob? He thought Metroid Other M was good.
The thing is, video games are still in the very early stages of really being taken seriously at all from the general public. People who read, watch tv, watch movies don't exactly get stereotypes placed on them. Those things are generally more accepted than playing video games. Now, it doesn't mean that saying you play video games is going to be like being radio active where people try to avoid you. Maybe it wasn't really looked at fondly when you said you played video games at one point, but it is getting more accepted.
MovieBob is mad because of how people are reacting to the ending. I mean, maybe there were points where it was getting out of hand. I haven't exactly seen them, but, then again, there really aren't many places I go for discussions....in fact, it's pretty rare that I actually post anything. And this is really the only forum I look at anyway. With that being said, almost every new topic I see is about the Mass Effect 3 ending. And you know what? It's fine that people are mad about the ending, it's fine that people are voicing there opinion on what they thought. What MovieBob is basically saying is just don't react to the point where it's going to have the general public who don't normally play video games to see us as childish and whiny and so far out there from normal people, and it will also confirm the people's beliefs who already believe that in the first place. We just need a better light shined on us. That's what he's talking about when it comes to taking games seriously, because it involves us too.
Then, there comes the argument for stuff like movies and books where stuff got changed. The thing is, those things have had time to be accepted and well respected to the general public. Sure, there are still people who probably don't normally read or watch movies or listen to music, but the said people aren't going to look at the others and shake their head because of the form of entertainment they like. With video games still being kind of in the early stages, it's still a battle for it to be taken seriously by everybody. So with stuff like this, it may set us back a little. I think MovieBob was exaggerating when he said a "decade" but it's not good when gamers will act in a certain way that's just going to further the stereotype on us. So it's really unfair to compare video games to books and movies when it comes to this. I mean, sure, you can compare them, but in the way the general public sees them though, not so much.
As for his whole art thing....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S79zdCa7jI&list=UUy92fXa6yBrLnKdW1pYJlMw&index=5&feature=plcp
Alright, yes, I follow MovieBob probably a lot more than most people on here do. So yes, I am biased. But, hey. Aren't we all? I'm just trying to say, there's a lot more coming from this than a lot of you seem to think.
MovieBob is mad because of how people are reacting to the ending. I mean, maybe there were points where it was getting out of hand. I haven't exactly seen them, but, then again, there really aren't many places I go for discussions....in fact, it's pretty rare that I actually post anything. And this is really the only forum I look at anyway. With that being said, almost every new topic I see is about the Mass Effect 3 ending. And you know what? It's fine that people are mad about the ending, it's fine that people are voicing there opinion on what they thought. What MovieBob is basically saying is just don't react to the point where it's going to have the general public who don't normally play video games to see us as childish and whiny and so far out there from normal people, and it will also confirm the people's beliefs who already believe that in the first place. We just need a better light shined on us. That's what he's talking about when it comes to taking games seriously, because it involves us too.
Then, there comes the argument for stuff like movies and books where stuff got changed. The thing is, those things have had time to be accepted and well respected to the general public. Sure, there are still people who probably don't normally read or watch movies or listen to music, but the said people aren't going to look at the others and shake their head because of the form of entertainment they like. With video games still being kind of in the early stages, it's still a battle for it to be taken seriously by everybody. So with stuff like this, it may set us back a little. I think MovieBob was exaggerating when he said a "decade" but it's not good when gamers will act in a certain way that's just going to further the stereotype on us. So it's really unfair to compare video games to books and movies when it comes to this. I mean, sure, you can compare them, but in the way the general public sees them though, not so much.
As for his whole art thing....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S79zdCa7jI&list=UUy92fXa6yBrLnKdW1pYJlMw&index=5&feature=plcp
Alright, yes, I follow MovieBob probably a lot more than most people on here do. So yes, I am biased. But, hey. Aren't we all? I'm just trying to say, there's a lot more coming from this than a lot of you seem to think.
I fail to see how a half-assed ending crawling with plotholes classifies as art, but then again I never was someone who understood art very well...Also, why is it that criticism is such a bad thing nowadays? Especially if it involves gaming? So if we dont like something, are we just meant to shut up and take it? Even though we paid for it?
Art isn't synonymous with good. There are plenty of duds in the world of art. Though I'd hardly classify Mass Effect 3 as a whole a dud (most of it is among the best video gaming I've experienced in nearly 20 years of playing games), the ending sure is.Reaper69lol said:
Can we just let MovieBob have his own opinion? (He's probably missed some info as it seems a bit mislead when it comes to fact, but I digress)
Yes Bioware is being a massive dick at this moment in time, being whored between fans and EA, but the Fans aren't helping. Doing that Childs Play thing showed how much you cared, a stupid amount. EA Now thinks that if they release a game with a crap ending they can get away with it, because the fans will give them more money to 'fix' it, then they release it with a charge.
If we all stopped giving a shit, then we would have won
Yes Bioware is being a massive dick at this moment in time, being whored between fans and EA, but the Fans aren't helping. Doing that Childs Play thing showed how much you cared, a stupid amount. EA Now thinks that if they release a game with a crap ending they can get away with it, because the fans will give them more money to 'fix' it, then they release it with a charge.
If we all stopped giving a shit, then we would have won
I'm pretty damn glad to see people finally getting upset with Bob over something! I've never played the Mass Effect games (RPGs in general aren't my thing) but it's nice to see that people can finally see how vindictive he is.
On his Escape to the Movies show, he'll take any opportunity he can to blast Vin Diesel or J.J. Abrhams for any damn reason he pleases. Anyone who didn't think that all three of the Transformers films are flaming pieces of garbadge must be morons who are a threat to society in general. Liking the Expendables or the Fast and the Furious films puts you on the same level as the asshole jock crowd who probably picked on him in high school. If you like modern FPS games, then you are also on that same level. Gaming was only great when Nintendo ruled the world. On and on and on it goes. The guy has such a East coast elitist persona that it must make him think that he has carte blanche to just make generalizations like the ones that he just made about the Mass Effect endings controversy. Glad that its out in the open now.
On his Escape to the Movies show, he'll take any opportunity he can to blast Vin Diesel or J.J. Abrhams for any damn reason he pleases. Anyone who didn't think that all three of the Transformers films are flaming pieces of garbadge must be morons who are a threat to society in general. Liking the Expendables or the Fast and the Furious films puts you on the same level as the asshole jock crowd who probably picked on him in high school. If you like modern FPS games, then you are also on that same level. Gaming was only great when Nintendo ruled the world. On and on and on it goes. The guy has such a East coast elitist persona that it must make him think that he has carte blanche to just make generalizations like the ones that he just made about the Mass Effect endings controversy. Glad that its out in the open now.
Because literature was taken back decades when Arthur Doyle brought Sherlock Holmes back to life after an uproar by the fans. The same happened to movies when Blade Runner was re-released as the director's cut version.
This is all a simple matter of retconning, which is something that an avid fan of comics, such as Bob, should understand. Unless he means to claim that comics are not art, which I sincerely doubt. Fan uproars have changed many stories. Why can't Mass Effect change for the same reason? Why is it barred from doing something that works of other mediums have done?
This is all a simple matter of retconning, which is something that an avid fan of comics, such as Bob, should understand. Unless he means to claim that comics are not art, which I sincerely doubt. Fan uproars have changed many stories. Why can't Mass Effect change for the same reason? Why is it barred from doing something that works of other mediums have done?
Not to mention people were so outraged by Highlander 2 they began releasing their own edits to remove all references to the Planet Zeist.Theron Julius said:
On topic: While I do agree the ending controversy has gotten a little out of hand (though it does speak to the quality of the series how passionate some people are getting), I have to ask you something Bob. Is what you're doing any better? Is calling people names really any better than people complaining about the ending of a game?
About all these cries of 'artistic integrity': where were they a few months ago, when a Mass Effect novel came out that was so indefensibly awful that Bioware had to agree to have it rewritten? How is this different? Even by artistic standards, this ending is a failure [http://calitreview.com/24673].Sentox6 said:
Sure, Bioware has the right to make whatever sort of game they want. But if I buy that game because they said "the decisions make completely shape [my] experience and outcome" and that I will "get some closure," and those things turn out to be untrue, I have the right to request changes. And they have the right to say no. And the next time they ask me to buy one of their games, I'll have the right to remember how much they value their artistic integrity.
Just saying.
You HAVE to be fucking kidding. The Mona Lisa. A portrait done on commission for a third party by the artist with the most widespread "popular" recognition at the time.Ultratwinkie said:
DaVinci was a celebrity, even in his time he was considered a genius, and he made his works for profit. He had the Sforza family pay his living in exchange for the application of his genius to whatever THEY wanted. The last supper, was on commission, with guidelines. The mechanical theatre (now sadly lost) was built for the amusement of the Sforzas, and you're seriously telling me art has to be done for art's sake? That popular culture can't appreciate art?
What about Shakespeare? The most appreciated writer of his time? Are you saying The Tempest is not art? Or Romeo and Juliet? Because they had quite the box office success.
And what about Greek tragedies, Homer's epics, the Aeneid, Dante's Divine Comedy?
Most artists we know today, most artists the critic community would never dare insult with anything less than utter and lavish praise, were famous and appreciated by the public in their time. There are very few exceptions, and even then it's just because afterwards something very similar to their styles came into fashion (Van Gogh for instance). If they weren't loved by the public enough to get widespread recognition at some point, we wouldn't know who they were.
You can play artist all you want, truth is no matter how hard you try, if people don't like your art, nobody will remember it, and you will be consigned to oblivion in a single generation. Write/paint something people like, and you will be immortal. Like Shakespeare, DaVinci, Homer (who probably never existed, but that's beside the point), Vergil, Dante Alighieri and even Van Gogh, saved by the bell as he may have been.
Grow up you snob with no historical perspective.