MovieBob's thoughts on the ME3 ending controversy
- Thread starter Sentox6
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Said Cato, just before concluding with "Carthago delenda est".Ultratwinkie said:
This is the oldest complaint in the book. "The new generation doesn't understand art, all they care about is their silly little shit-tv, and their shit movies, we were the last generation to actually give a shit, art is doomed BAAAAAAAAAAAW".
You do realize, of course, that this is the exact same complaint your parents have with Videogames, and that their parents had with The Beatles (or whatever else, depending on how old you are, i'm assuming mid twenties, judging by the posts at hand).
And i know, before you point it out yourself, that i hideously misrepresented your post in my deliberately mocking impression, but the jist of it is that. This generation doesn't know art from their derriere, only games made for the sake of making art games are really art, they can't be art if they're big budget. To which i say: Bullshit for all the reasons i listed in my previous post. I bloody well know the Mona Lisa was an example, i was just underlining how stupid an example it was and how much of your ignorance of art history transpared from that particular choice. You could've picked Van Gogh, and it would've been a better illustration of your point and, while still holding a flawed POV, you would at least have avoided dismantling your own argument from within.
You pointing out that they were appreciated "in their time", on the other hand, is flat out stupid. You wouldn't be studying Van Gogh and Shakespeare if people didn't still appreciate them, at least on some level. And no, students never give a shit about them. It's called "being forced to study", it makes everything indigestible. If you were right, that people don't appreciate these artists anymore, we wouldn't see people getting degrees in Literature, Art, Art History, Cinema, etcetera. Of course not everyone cares, that has ALWAYS been the case. People care about different things, go figure.
Nobody, ever, cared about art in principle. They care because of any combination of three reasons: personal entertainment, pleasure in creating something other people enjoy and the fun acting superior when they think the "get" something other people don't. That's it. If you think the past is any different, read the examples i posted again. That's ART. That was made for the enjoyment of the masses.
If you think only hipster deliberately tortured egotistical "you don't get it" art-for-art's-sake artists make genuine art, think again.
They are the lowest of the lowest common denominator, the kind that will never actually be remembered as good artists, but as provocateaurs at best, shitheads at worst.
And before you repeat your point, I agree completely that one item in a medium doesn't invalidate the others, that's absolutely not my point. I get that even if mass effect's artistic integrity flew out the window because of this decision (had it not already flown out the window for entirely different reasons) other games could still be art regardless.
My point is that if you honestly think that big budget = product = not art you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about and should seriously take a couple of history and art history classes.
wintercoat said:
Yes, and I sympathize with that. There's no real way around the fact that you and the ME3 community were lied to. Which is kind of problematic for me, as I'm put in a position where, for reasons of my own, I want to defend liars. Casey Hudson dug Bioware's grave when he said what he said. Without that quote, there's no other reason or justification for wanting to change the ending besides being upset with it. He gave the outcry actual merit.
I think the biggest problem with this whole affair is that, in order to give their claims substance, gamers who (desperately and loudly) want to change ME3 need to claim that the game is in no way art. ME3 is a product and that's that. Otherwise they can claim no real power over Bioware besides being fans.
It's a stupid thing to do, not only because I can guarantee you that a lot of these people defends video games as art whenever it suits their purposes(For example if/when a government or state tries to censor or regulate games, such as in the Supreme Court Decision.) But also because these gamers are the ones forsaking their own medium in order to get what they want. We lose so much ground for an argument, should we ever need to defend video games again. Which we might.
anthony87 said:
As I said in my earlier post, anyone who defends artistic failures with "It's art. You can't criticise it." is not getting art in the first place and is one-hundred percent wrong.
And I totally understand that not everybody is contacting their local authorities over this. Honestly, I kind of feel sorry for you guys. I mean, due to the fact that people have been shouting nasty words at Bioware for screwing up ever since ME3 released, any sort of post-release DLC that modifies the ending won't be regarded as Bioware listening to fans, but caving in to loudmouths.
eh, i lost my respect for him when he called all halo fans douchebags. and then again when he called all the transformers fans douchebags. and then again when he called all the people who didn't like Metroid Other M straw feminists.
so basically i stopped respecting him when he called me straw feminist double douchebag.
and i don't even want bioware to revise the ending. what bugged me was they didn't explain anything. a paragraph explaining what actually happened and the results and the resolution at the end is pretty much all i want.
so basically i stopped respecting him when he called me straw feminist double douchebag.
and i don't even want bioware to revise the ending. what bugged me was they didn't explain anything. a paragraph explaining what actually happened and the results and the resolution at the end is pretty much all i want.
well one would expect bob to let his inner snob out on this one. considering bioware abandoned their own original ending to give us this, which may very well be a rather underhanded ploy to sell us DLC, its not exactly like their artistic integrity was very fucking high to begin with.
its fucking EA/bioware that has set the industry back 10 years with what is either an incredibly lazy ending or an incredibly devious business ploy. stop sounding like roger ebert commenting on video games, bob. you cant use "art" as a shield against a failed product anymore than you can use "product" as a shield against failed art.
and i hate to break it to you, but you really, really should be aware of the fact that art has ALWAYS been part business. leonardo didnt paint the adoration of the magi for shits and giggles, he was commissioned to make it; he also chose to take years longer than promised on many works instead of just rushing it out, and never even completed a lot of paintings. THAT is fucking integrity, not sticking by intentions you were too bad of an artist to realize would end up in failure. ill admit that changing the ending isnt going to fix anything, but quite frankly sticking to the one we have because of "artistic integrity" would be much, much worse. you want to talk about establishing bad precedents? how about an industry that can get away with any hackneyed, rushed, thoughtless bullshit of a storyline under the shield of "art"? if you start defending failure as part of the "art" of a game, then youve done nothing but give publishers another excuse to get away with it.
some endings are polarizing. this is not one of them. NOBODY is championing this ending, the best anyone can come up with is that it was really a dream and ME3 has no ending. we all agree that it is shit, there is no fucking artistic expression we are not getting. it FAILED as art, and you dont excuse failure whatever the form.
its fucking EA/bioware that has set the industry back 10 years with what is either an incredibly lazy ending or an incredibly devious business ploy. stop sounding like roger ebert commenting on video games, bob. you cant use "art" as a shield against a failed product anymore than you can use "product" as a shield against failed art.
and i hate to break it to you, but you really, really should be aware of the fact that art has ALWAYS been part business. leonardo didnt paint the adoration of the magi for shits and giggles, he was commissioned to make it; he also chose to take years longer than promised on many works instead of just rushing it out, and never even completed a lot of paintings. THAT is fucking integrity, not sticking by intentions you were too bad of an artist to realize would end up in failure. ill admit that changing the ending isnt going to fix anything, but quite frankly sticking to the one we have because of "artistic integrity" would be much, much worse. you want to talk about establishing bad precedents? how about an industry that can get away with any hackneyed, rushed, thoughtless bullshit of a storyline under the shield of "art"? if you start defending failure as part of the "art" of a game, then youve done nothing but give publishers another excuse to get away with it.
some endings are polarizing. this is not one of them. NOBODY is championing this ending, the best anyone can come up with is that it was really a dream and ME3 has no ending. we all agree that it is shit, there is no fucking artistic expression we are not getting. it FAILED as art, and you dont excuse failure whatever the form.
Welp, there went all the respect I had for moviebob.
"Bitchbitchbitch ART ART ART"
"But they used false advertising to get us to buy it."
"ART. ART. ART. ART. ART. ART. ART."
"But they aren't doing it for the art, they're doing it to make money."
"ARTARTARTARTARTARTARTARTARTARTARTARTARTART."
"Bitchbitchbitch ART ART ART"
"But they used false advertising to get us to buy it."
"ART. ART. ART. ART. ART. ART. ART."
"But they aren't doing it for the art, they're doing it to make money."
"ARTARTARTARTARTARTARTARTARTARTARTARTARTART."
All commercial art is also a product. I'm hearing Movie Bob's argument a lot, and frankly it's insane. No-one defends movies, TV, or plays this way, and alternate endings pop up all the time in those. Gaming is never going to advance as an art form if critics keep treating every major release as an untouchable sacred cow.
I'm really not sure who annoys me more.
Moviebob or the dude who wrote this
Seriously, what kind of journalist opens with
"I don't know what the ending of Mass Effect 3 entails, and I don't care. I haven't even played Mass Effect 3 yet. Hell, I'm still working through the first one at the moment."
and then proceeds to write a 2 page article on the matter?
Moviebob or the dude who wrote this
Seriously, what kind of journalist opens with
"I don't know what the ending of Mass Effect 3 entails, and I don't care. I haven't even played Mass Effect 3 yet. Hell, I'm still working through the first one at the moment."
and then proceeds to write a 2 page article on the matter?
MovieBob confuses me. There are times when I couldn't agree more with him. There are also times where he just pisses me off and comes across as pretentious, misinformed and downright hypocritical.
(It also amuses me that he makes extensive use of all-caps and ridiculous hyperbole in posts about internet "crybabies" and nerd rage
)
(It also amuses me that he makes extensive use of all-caps and ridiculous hyperbole in posts about internet "crybabies" and nerd rage
)
I suppose at this point it's worth mentioning that Bioware have already altered one of their products to appeal to fan consensus. Namely the novel 'Mass Effect: Deception' which featured numerous continuity errors and plot grievances and was panned in a very similar fashion to ME3's ending.
The book was changed, so I guess by Bob's logic the authors "artistic integrity" was forever destroyed and it did untold damage to the novel industry, right?
I'd love to hear Bob's thoughts on our thoughts on his thoughts on the ME3 ending controversy, too bad he doesn't have the integrity or spine to face people who disagree with him in any intelligent manner.
The book was changed, so I guess by Bob's logic the authors "artistic integrity" was forever destroyed and it did untold damage to the novel industry, right?
I'd love to hear Bob's thoughts on our thoughts on his thoughts on the ME3 ending controversy, too bad he doesn't have the integrity or spine to face people who disagree with him in any intelligent manner.
I wonder what will be Movie Bobs reaction when it turns out EA/Bioware just cut off the ending to sell for DLC. I wonder how anyone using the art defence will try to fix their argument then?
You know I think this whole thing was planed to see what they could get away with. Either that or they were not given enough time to finish the game.
You know I think this whole thing was planed to see what they could get away with. Either that or they were not given enough time to finish the game.
Set gaming BACK? Hmm... Anyone want to a thrown down with Jim Sterling now? That was a bold statement in the other direction haha.