Music = Lyrics?
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Rap takes loads of crap because the large majority of it, lyrically, deals with what it's stereotyped to be about. I personally don't like rap, largely for this reason, and because the emphasis on beats doesn't rub me the right way.
Metal is much more diverse, both musically and lyrically. When rap becomes diverse, it's not rap anymore, it's hip hop. Or whatever offshoot genre. Whereas if you look at metal, you've got a lot of room for crossover in lyrics and sound while still being counted as 'metal'. I know many people who are metal fans but whom actually have very little musical taste in common. Rap on the other hand suffers from the classification of its narrow genre, in all fairness.
But this argument is rather silly, you can't say one band or type of music is better than the other, or that lyrics count more than sound. Everyone finds something different in their music, and it's totally hypocritical to condemn fans of a certain band or genre.
...except the WHite Stripes :x
Metal is much more diverse, both musically and lyrically. When rap becomes diverse, it's not rap anymore, it's hip hop. Or whatever offshoot genre. Whereas if you look at metal, you've got a lot of room for crossover in lyrics and sound while still being counted as 'metal'. I know many people who are metal fans but whom actually have very little musical taste in common. Rap on the other hand suffers from the classification of its narrow genre, in all fairness.
But this argument is rather silly, you can't say one band or type of music is better than the other, or that lyrics count more than sound. Everyone finds something different in their music, and it's totally hypocritical to condemn fans of a certain band or genre.
...except the WHite Stripes :x
Hows about to bring this argument to an end I'll just post the only piece of music that anyone ever needs to hear for their lives to be complete:
Thread ended.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okqEVeNqBhc
Thread ended.
Even though thread has officially ended with my last post, I'll still add some postmortem commentary. Every type of music (be it rock, rap, pop, whatever) can be shitty if not done right, or if the minimum amount of effort is put in (in rock examples would be: following 12 bar blues to the letter, following standard pop song structure in EVERY SONG, repeating something without any meaning to the repetition, so on).
I actually only have 3-4 bands which I can consider my self an active listener of, mostly in the rock/metal/industrial metal/post-rock categories, but I have heard rap/hip hop/country/techno, etc that I have liked, because the artist actually tried to make something meaningful, something with emotional impact. Plenty of rock/metal/industrial metal/post-rock fails to do this and thus sucks as hard as any sucky music from any other category.
I suppose that would be the main thing that qualifies music as good for me, is emotional impact. That can be done with or without words. Everyone has different views of the world, some downright retarded, but I suppose that is going to go along with what emotionally resonates with them. I personally cannot see why anyone would like Dragonforce, what emotion does that kind of music stir within people? the feeling of masturbating to Conan the barbarian? seriously I have no clue... maybe EPICALLY masturbating to Conan the Barbarian... very quickly...? But some people like their music. Those same people would probably not be able to fathom what I get out of listening to a 49 minute song, but in the end I guess we all just have to live with the fact that our way of thought is not the only way and/or right way for all people.
(This post may have rambled on and may not be on the music=lyrics topic fully, but more on the flaming that ensued... just figured I'd throw in my poorly written 2 cents)
I actually only have 3-4 bands which I can consider my self an active listener of, mostly in the rock/metal/industrial metal/post-rock categories, but I have heard rap/hip hop/country/techno, etc that I have liked, because the artist actually tried to make something meaningful, something with emotional impact. Plenty of rock/metal/industrial metal/post-rock fails to do this and thus sucks as hard as any sucky music from any other category.
I suppose that would be the main thing that qualifies music as good for me, is emotional impact. That can be done with or without words. Everyone has different views of the world, some downright retarded, but I suppose that is going to go along with what emotionally resonates with them. I personally cannot see why anyone would like Dragonforce, what emotion does that kind of music stir within people? the feeling of masturbating to Conan the barbarian? seriously I have no clue... maybe EPICALLY masturbating to Conan the Barbarian... very quickly...? But some people like their music. Those same people would probably not be able to fathom what I get out of listening to a 49 minute song, but in the end I guess we all just have to live with the fact that our way of thought is not the only way and/or right way for all people.
(This post may have rambled on and may not be on the music=lyrics topic fully, but more on the flaming that ensued... just figured I'd throw in my poorly written 2 cents)
Didn't think this post would actually get this far when I randomly created this yesterday, just kinda made it then walked away...
But to address some things and clarify my point: 1. I can see how many people think certain types of rap and other genres which centre mostly on lyrics reflect talent. I wholeheartedly agree, but I just don't believe it shows musical talent and should be hailed as good music. I believe it is a talent for poetry (and perhaps language in general) and I find it sad that these people are lumped into the same group as amazing musicians. I'm sorry but there's no way in hell I'm going to be able to honestly listen to any Eminem song and say that this is on the same footing in musical talent as the amazing guitar and drums in Painkiller by Judas Priest.
Also, somewhere before, I honestly don't feel like trying to find and quote it, someone said that the idea of saying all lyrics are poetry is idiotic or something like that honestly has no understanding of poetry. All lyrics can very much be counted as poetry, even the ones that sound like complete nonsense or the rap ones about banging that ho and drugs and homies or whatever. As was also mentioned earlier in the thread there is good poetry and bad poetry. While I would lump those into bad poetry it is still poetry none the less.
But to address some things and clarify my point: 1. I can see how many people think certain types of rap and other genres which centre mostly on lyrics reflect talent. I wholeheartedly agree, but I just don't believe it shows musical talent and should be hailed as good music. I believe it is a talent for poetry (and perhaps language in general) and I find it sad that these people are lumped into the same group as amazing musicians. I'm sorry but there's no way in hell I'm going to be able to honestly listen to any Eminem song and say that this is on the same footing in musical talent as the amazing guitar and drums in Painkiller by Judas Priest.
Also, somewhere before, I honestly don't feel like trying to find and quote it, someone said that the idea of saying all lyrics are poetry is idiotic or something like that honestly has no understanding of poetry. All lyrics can very much be counted as poetry, even the ones that sound like complete nonsense or the rap ones about banging that ho and drugs and homies or whatever. As was also mentioned earlier in the thread there is good poetry and bad poetry. While I would lump those into bad poetry it is still poetry none the less.
Well, no. All of Nirvanas songs have meanings. I mean, I don't listen to them that much but that's how it is with most other grunge bands and from the Nirvana stuff I know. I wouldn't really want to draw focus towards the music in Nirvana either. It's weak sauce.Ryokugax said:
Anyway, music can exist without lyrics but can lyrics exist without music? Sometimes. Look at John Cooper Clarke and the other punk poets. But then look at some of the more modern music and not so much.
*fist bump*Feversaint said:
sizzle949 said:
Just because someone isn't an amazing musician, doesn't mean they can't make good music.
There is a idea that music is made up of a number of elements (this is behond the elements of music you learnt about in highschool music) and two of them are technique and emotion. If you can be amazing in one of those, somtimes it shadows your lack of the other. A good example is Dream Theater - Flawless musicianship but next to no emotion, yet people (myself inlcuded) still like them. On the flipside, punk music is based on its artists having all this raw emotion, yet no musical talent.
Going off what Mr. Feversaint said - As long as you get an emotional impact from the artist who cares if they can't shread the shit out of the whole half scale.
I'm a very big advocate of good (and amazing) being a relative term (namely because it is...). In my opinion you cannot be an amazing musician without being able to make good music. While I do agree that emotion is a big part of music, it's also a big part of poetry (aka lyrics). If you (I'm using you as a generalization for all readers) honestly believe that stuff like punk is good because the lyrics instill these emotions, and believe they are amazing, good for you. But I just believe that makes them good poets, not musicians.zen5887 said:
sizzle949 said:
I find your base assertion to be flawed. Don't the best songs have the lyrics and music melded? Think of led zepplin: The lyrics (when intelligible) rarely make sense, yet if you remove them from the song, it is remarkably lessened.
Thats me, you guys think what you want. However, if you share some of my musical opinions and would like to help me take down Dr. Steel, feel free to messag me.
Toy Soldiers can piss off though
Most people usually find out about the plot before going to the opera, and some opera houses have this electronic thing that acts as a... "subtitle" of sorts. Even then, some productions are made in the local language (when I went to see Salomé in Buenos Aires, for instance, it was in Spanish. A bit strange, and some of the rhyming felt a little contrived, but still enjoyable)TheNumber1Zero said:
Once again, the use of the term "best" is relative to different people(and with how much I've stressed this in most of my posts I really should make a new thread on the issue). YOU believe that the best songs have both. I believe that the best songs, or atleast my favorite songs, are hindered if anything by the lyrics because it takes away your attention from the music. I still think of the song Painkiller by Judas Priest, which is one of my favorite, in which the singing is quite ear piercing and rare, and the lyrics pointless. Yet it still tops my list because of the music (I.E instrumental) aspect of music8-Bit_Jack said:
sizzle949 said:
yes, and i SAID it was my opinion. and that everyone was entitled to their own. Except Toy Soldiers.
Painkiller without the lyrics sounds like the power ranger theme
Drums? You got it.The Rockerfly said:
*Pushes buttons on a sound board*
Done.
In all seriousness, lyrics do matter in music. If music isnt something to be passionate about, then what is it? A marketing tool. Anyone who makes music that isnt passionate about creating it isnt a true musician, and is probably money-hungry. So, why not put your heart and soul into both the lyrics and the background sounds if you are indeed passionate? Seems strange why some people feel the need to say that when listening to some artists' music to just completely ignore the lyrics.
They are rap metal, rap is in the name thus I can use it as an exampleArretu said:
Computer-Noob said: