Music tastes and Intelligence...A link has been found.

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Bulletinmybrain

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Jun 22, 2008
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Ago Iterum said:
I remember ages ago a certain large ego'd forum user with a sense of self importance bigger
^Stick an extra G here, and you have his name :D
than the market in the chicken produced passage of birth/breakfast associated food that bares his name. (I'd name him but mods would tell me off)

He went on implying how he was so much more well read and intelligent because he played and listened to more 'cultured' music, and how all other music was basically common scum.
He said that just to get a rise out of people. You have lost the game.
 

Samurai Goomba

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Oct 7, 2008
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You have to consider emotional intelligence as well, not just scholastic. Music probably influences the Social Sciences more than the more conventional ones. That said, I wouldn't give this chart any kind of credibility or anything.

Placing one thing next to another does not mean they have anything to do with one another. That's fallacious reasoning, but it sounds like the OP knows that.

Still, I'm happy to see that Led Zepp and ACDC aren't at the bottom.
 

Seldon2639

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Feb 21, 2008
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Statistically speaking, the results aren't really valid. Self-selection itself is always iffy when we're talking statistical analysis (the whole "French Women Don't Get Fat... Because They Report Their Own Weight" phenomenon). If you're then compounding that not only with taking mean scores (without doing an analysis of variance), you're making an amusing (but scientifically invalid) graph.

First, a good step would have been to determine how much statistically significant difference exists between schools. You measure the amount of MSW (Mean Squared Within, the distribution of the SAT scores of the students within a school) and compare it to the amount of MSB (Mean Squared Between, the distribution of the scores of the schools), and figure out whether the MSB is large enough (or the MSW small enough) to say that the schools are significantly different.

Similarly, the self reporting is pure bullocks. If you're using facebook data especially, people are going to list music they think is appropriate. So, a student at a high-minded (pretentious) academic school would be likely to list Beethoven, while someone at a school with more inner-city and ghetto (or faux-ghetto) social atmosphere, and people would list rap artists for the same reason. Hell, even the indie stuff makes sense. If you tried listing anything more maintstream than Modest Mouse at Vassar, you'd be laughed out of the room.

I'd be interested to see the results of a real survey (the kind with privacy and autonomy), and see how it stacks up. I'd bet Beethoven would get a much lower rating (since no one actually likes Beethoven in particular, it's just snobbery).
 

Seldon2639

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pha kin su pah said:
vivaldiscool said:
If you realize that these results are obviously just displaying correlation, the whole thing becomes a lot more reasonable, and you can actually see why the results may have turned out that way.
First reasonable post of the thread. You would think most people would have studied alittle statistics.

Yes, if you like Lil' Wayne and scored 1236, YOU ARE AN OUTLIER PEOPLE!
Actually, there's no indication that you would be an outlier. This graph skips over even elementary level statistics. It uses the mean SAT score without dealing with an ANOVA, uses self-selected (and already aggregated) musical tastes and generalizes them to an entire school, then averages *those* results. It's entertaining, but don't try to treat this like actual statistical work went into it. Real statistics would require hypothesis testing a little more intricate than "oh, let's see what music is *listed* on *facebook* as the most common for each school (ignoring that any individual might have any number of "favorite" bands), conflate that with an SAT score, and graph it." That's not statistics, that's an arts-and-crafts project you do in middle school.

Edit: I have no problem with the graph itself. I just hate when people misunderstand what statistics really means. Even accepting that correlation doesn't prove causation, the graph in question doesn't even imply correlation. No amount of coolness can make up for shoddy methods.
 

oktalist

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Feb 16, 2009
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It's not just music. People who prefer not to think too hard are more accepting of the drivel fed by the corporate mass media, whether it be Girls Aloud, Big Brother or Formulaic Ben Affleck Movie #47.
 

The Random One

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I find it really strange that Beethoven is listed so high, because Beethoven is the number one fake claim for people who don't actually like classical music. I can't say I'm crazy about classical, but I'll take Mozard and Vivaldi over Beethoven any day.

Yeah, it seems the way to gather data is quite schewed. I'd like to see one of these correlating personal scores to tastes as given in an actual interview. I think that would cause the score of classical and heavy metal to soar, because in every community of smart people I've been to those are the most popular styles. Also, I'm Brazilian and I'm not sure of what the numbers in the X axis mean, but if they're scores for that test which has questions like "apples are to oranges as geosynchronic satellites are to..." it makes the whole thing moot because that test is completely retarded.

Also, an interesting thing... notice how every generic description - "rock", "classical", "gospel" whatever - usually scores way below specific bands of that type. I guess smart people like being specific.
 

vultureX21

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Feb 26, 2009
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So far, seems only Gamine picked up on the first major flaw in this "study" (quotes indicate I am using the term loosely, which I am still loath to do because frankly, even the sarcastic use is giving this garbage too much credit). This correlates music preference to SAT scores, a test that has been shown to be:

1. Almost completely inaccurate for actually assessing a person's intelligence or capacity to learn.

2. Inherently racist in design, representing mostly knowledge of DEWMH (for future reference that acronym stands for Dead European White Males and their Hobbies).

3. A tool used by large universities to quickly trim the amount of applications they actually have to take seriously so they can have a "manageable" number of applicant forms to sift through.

The second major flaw is the author's bias or in this case, blatant fart-sniffing smugness that rears it's ugly head in the first couple of lines. Case in point:

"I've listened to artists who after listening to I thought to myself 'Wow... loving this rubbish says a lot about someone and how much they got going on in their head.' Could one's musical tastes say something about intelligence? How about SAT scores? Well, like any good scientist, I decided to see how well my personal experience matches reality. How might one do this?"

Language says a lot, how you choose to make a statement says a lot about you. Examples here of pure ivory tower pretension include, but are not limited to:

1. "'Wow...loving this rubbish says a lot about someone and how much they got going on in their head.'" - First, "got going on" is grammatically incorrect, "have going on" would be right. Second, music is a love of personal experience and upbringing. Certain music speaks to people, and some takes time to find meaning. To claim that a person's musical preference represents their level of intelligence is akin to saying economic or racial background affects indicates inherent intelligence. This is incorrect, all it indicates is cultural influence, which represents intelligence and value to that culture. If you are not a member of the dominant culture but live in a country where the dominant culture is different from yours then you will seem inferior in ability (cognitively) to the dominant culture. There was a guest recently on "The Colbert Report" who examined this with Celine Dionne (who I personally abhor, but his explanation of musical preference was far more intelligent than mine or this idiot's).

2. "...like any good scientist" - I would like to see some credentials please. That "Junior's First Chemist Kit" does not make you Edward Jenner, moron.

3. "...I decided to see how well my personal experience matches reality" - Oh man, so many things could be said about this. I'll try to be brief, you cannot represent "reality" scientifically unless you prove your theory to be a law. Also, the correlation of music to intelligence is a study in psychology, which any high school psych student could tell you is a fringe school of thought that spends much of it's professional time trying to prove that it is a true science representing experiments resulting in factual and bias-free results. This is a struggle psychology as a practice continues to fight.

I can only conclude that this study is...a terrible joke. The graph looks like it was made by a graduate of the University of Passable Microsoft Paint Skills (UPMPS for short). There is no validity here, I'd trust the Moral Majority to be more objective about the effects of same-sex parents on adopted foster children.

I'm out.

PS - This post written while listening to "Blame It" by Jamie Foxx ft. T-Pain
 

MrShrike

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Oct 27, 2008
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oh...
another blow to my fragile self esteem...

Edit: now i must automatically dismiss this regardless of authenticity
 

vultureX21

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Feb 26, 2009
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Follow up: ravens_nest, you said you read this "in a newspaper" I'd like the name of that rag if you don't mind.
 

KeyMaster45

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Jun 16, 2008
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I never had to take the SAT, Louisiana has the ACT for some reason. Its a really f'd up system we got so I stopped questioning it years ago. Anyway, point being the chart sort of says what common sense already dictates. You notice that the more popular bands fall in the middle of the score spectrum, obviously so because the average score will have the most people. Beethoven on the other hand sits very lonley on the really smart end of the spectrum, rightly so because, well lets face it the smarter you are the more you are able to appreciate music like Beethoven...let alone give a rat's ass about it.

Taking the conversion of ACT scores (a 1-36 scale) and the SAT scores (a 800-1500 scale), and myself scoring a 26 on the ACT, which you would think is an average score on such a test. The truth being an average score on the ACT is about 20-24, so a 26 places me somewhere between Coldplay and Counting Crows. Personally I don't like music from any of the artists listed on the chart except on rare occasions. I prefer to stick with music without lyrics, that's not because I'm smart but more because I have sensitive hearing and can't take loud music very well.

Getting off my analytical tangent, the graph is rather accurate. I mean lets face it, the majority of people who take the SAT's aren't scoring over 1300 on it.
 

Raven's Nest

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Feb 19, 2009
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vultureX21 said:
Follow up: ravens_nest, you said you read this "in a newspaper" I'd like the name of that rag if you don't mind.
The Sun on 13/03/09

Hey, never said it was concrete evidence, just thought it'd be an amusing read at best. :)

By the way, good rant, the only flaw I can point out was that of all the artist's mentioned in the results, they were all the most frequently nominated as favourite artist. Hence the lacking of variety. Also, he grouped the genre's together quite loosly and warned not to pay much attention in where individual acts might be grouped under.
 

vultureX21

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"Hey, never said it was concrete evidence, just thought it'd be an amusing read at best."


Oh, no criticism of you intended, directed entirely at the original author. I don't shoot messengers...normally.

Oh, and I can't figure out how to trim down posts, mostly due to my low intelligence related to my musical interest.
 

Raven's Nest

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Feb 19, 2009
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vultureX21 said:
"Hey, never said it was concrete evidence, just thought it'd be an amusing read at best."


Oh, no criticism of you intended, directed entirely at the original author. I don't shoot messengers...normally.

Oh, and I can't figure out how to trim down posts, mostly due to my low intelligence related to my musical interest.
Oh you must be one of those..."Little Wayne" fans then...

Run along now, this is a place for intellectuals...;)
 

PumpItUp

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Sep 27, 2008
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Just wondering if anyone noticed that the bands used were taken from the Top 100 or so bands listed on Facebook. Bitching about why your favorite band isn't on the list and declaring the argument moot is petty, considering the list was created through a social networking site where people are notoriously indecisive.

As for the arguments of racism, how is the correlation between low testing scores and enjoying hip hop racist? Last time I checked, young black kids have lower testing scores because of poor schooling, neighborhoods, gangs, etc. not music. Black kids aren't even the primary group of hip hop listeners anymore, not since white people discovered and consumed it.

The list may give you cause to think about the point argued (music may correlate with IQ or SAT scores) but that should be it. The moment you delve deeper into tis informal study, you hve missed the point.
 

vultureX21

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Technically, his name is "Lil' Wayne," I think somehow the loss of several T's make him more "gangsta" to use the modern parlance. But no, not really a big fan of his, despite his creativity I can't get into the rhymes he uses. He is exponentially better than 50 I'd-write-a-simplistic-rhyme-about-shopping-for-genital-wart-curing-cream-if-it-sold Cent however.