Muslim Should Not Equal Villain

[Giest4life]

It is true that Muslims have been in a bad light (not near as much as Nazi's or Russians lol). However, Muslims have been attacking American values for just as long. Even today we can see hate speeches from Islamic leaders citing violence against Americans, and their way of life. I'm afraid I can't feel sympathetic towards a culture that hates democracy, it's values, and it's people. Also, they hate Jews with such a passion that it makes Nazi's look conservative. This is common knowledge, and also this:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.229799-Iran-Publishes-Anti-Israel-Videogames

Sorry, I'm just not buying that it is Muslims who are the real victims here. Of course, this is a matter of opinion.

This. Why is it such a big issue because it's about Muslims?

The Nazi's were bastards, and now the Germans are endlessly getting stick about it in virtually every shooter that comes out. You even get Nazi Zombies now. And they suck it up and move on.

Ditto for the Russians.

But Muslims? Nooo... can't do that. Their sensitive feelings might get hurt. Now keep in mind that those same 'sensitive' feelings:
- stone people,
- abuse and oppress women,
- rabidly denouce ANYTHING that isn't completely in line with THEIR religion (funny how they're allowed to criticise everyone else, but cannot be criticised themselves),
- call for murder on London and Amsterdam streets without getting arrested for promoting hate,
- commit terrorists acts,
and so on. Sure, it's not ALL of them. Many living in the Western world are just fine. But equally many are dragging their junk across into our world and stoning/honor killing people in Western countries now too!

So no. I don't have much sympathy at all.

When the 'moderate' Muslims are prepared to stand up and say "No! This is not acceptable!" and do something to stop it, then we've got room to talk. But the vast majority only ever go as far as "No! This is not acceptable. But I can understand why you're doing it, and even though I won't do it myself, I kinda support YOU doing it." and then do nothing to stop it.

Until they stand up to be counted, they can all bugger off.

Quoted for truth, though not sure why I was quoted in particular lol! This post covers many of the things I never said in my initial post. It is true that it seems that Muslims feel they can criticize anyone, but will not tolerate being criticized themselves. Thanks for the post ^~^! It's good to know that truth seekers are still out there.

Oh, I'm sorry, then. Truth, and goodness then depends on the perspective, and it's proponents. Your logic is flawed. You are then implicitly justifying anything, depending on when, where, and whom it matters to.

I'm sure the Nazis were right in their own mind, and all the Jews should suck it up, because the moderate anti-semits in Germany, and elsewhere in Europe, should have just raised their voices when the Nuremberg laws were passed.

EDIT: Just an fyi: goodness, truth, and morality is just a matter of perspective. Nothing, and everything is justified. I'm only assuming that you believe in some sort of a constant "truth" or "morality."

 

[WaderiAAA]

I always found it strange how whenever there are Russians, Muslims or Germans in a video game, they are the bad guys and people rarely react, but when one resident evil game was set in Africa, everyone was screaming about racism.

 

[WaderiAAA]

I agree with the article, but I would like to point out that 24 got a tad more nuanced in the later seasons.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Well America is pretty xenophobic about Muslims.

What's this in the news? The ground zero mosque? Oh yes. that.

The USA is a hell of alot more tolerant towards Muslims then alot of Muslim countries are towards Christians, Atheists and citizens of the United States.

That's a lazy excuse to justify xenophobia. Just because others might do the same to you does not mean you should treat them that way, especially in a country like America that boasts about freedom and having the moral high ground.

 

[Saladin Ahmed]

Well, folks, this really is the last post I'll be able to make for a while -- need to work on the novel and take the kiddies out this weekend. So I'll try to address some broad arguments that people are making. A lot of this thread is not really about games. People are asking me to weigh in on all sorts of things that aren't part of the original article. This really isn't the place to talk about Palestine vs. Israel, or comparative religion, or about why hate crimes might be understandable (!?), or the Muhammad cartoons, etc. So I'm going to keep my points brief and gaming-related:

1) To those who say "It's just a game" or "Get over it": as I said before, I know gamers don't automatically form all their ideas about people/places based on games -- any more than the columbine shooters did it 'because of' violent games. If that was the case I'd be going out and committing assassinations after playing the bazillion hours of Oblivion that I've played. But if you think that movies and games and TV aren't part of where we get our notions about the world, then you're just not paying attention to reality. There's a reason that governments and religions throughout history have used songs and posters and movies and cartoons and, yes, video games, to spread their messages. There's a reason our government recruited Dr. Seuss and Walt Disney for WWII propaganda. There's a reason '24' was cited as a source of inspiration by Guatanamo interrogators (http://motherjones.com/mojo/2008/04/report-jack-bauer-gave-people-lots-ideas-gitmo). And there's a reason that the US Army and Hezbollah both have used gaming as a recruitment/propaganda tool. Because cartoons, movies, tv, and yes, GAMES, matter. They matter a whole lot.

2) The argument 'Get in line, lots of groups have been demonized' isn't really a counter to my article. How does a long history of wrongs add up to a right, exactly? And as to the related point 'the Taliban is the enemy, so of course war games feature the enemy' -- well, that doesn't address my main point either, which is simply 'Gee, maybe we could have a game here and there where there are muslims who aren't terrorists.'

3) The argument 'game companies don't owe Muslims anything' isn't much better. Variety of depiction in games isn't just -- or even primarily -- about making my little Muslim heart warm and fuzzy. It's about making better games. Again, plenty of non-muslim people in this thread and in private messages have made it clear that they, too, would appreciate some variety in their games. The same-old same-old isn't just stereotypical. It's BORING.

4) Finally, to those who really believe that these games DO reflect reality because most Muslims, or a whole hell of a lot of us are violent fanatics, I have to say you need some better evidence for that claim than the TV news. Because, if you really believe that you get the whole picture of a culture from watching tv or reading foxnews.com (or cnn.com, for that matter), then you've got bigger problems than I know how to address.

It's been real, folks. See you on the flip side.

 

[Sodoff]

uhg.. Internet Religion debates...

It's a black hole from which you cannot return.

and now it's time to throw myself into it.

You cannot compare Islam, a religion, with the Nazi Party. A better choice would be, say Hesbollah, or Al'quadia (spelling I know), As they both are parties/organisations who follow certain ideas.

What the writer of this article is mentioning, is that there in alot of videogames tends to be a stereotype of "Muslim->Scary ass ************".

I think it's important to remember, that we shoot Nazi's because they are Nazi's and not because they are German.

But, alot of the time in other games, we shoot Muslims, or "generic middle eastern guy" because, well.. "They are all bad"

My point here is, the argument "suck it up, the germans don't complain" is flawed, as acutally very uninformed.

 

[370999]

Well America is pretty xenophobic about Muslims.

What's this in the news? The ground zero mosque? Oh yes. that.

The USA is a hell of alot more tolerant towards Muslims then alot of Muslim countries are towards Christians, Atheists and citizens of the United States.

That's a lazy excuse to justify xenophobia. Just because others might do the same to you does not mean you should treat them that way, especially in a country like America that boasts about freedom and having the moral high ground.

Except it wasn't an excuse, it was putting your remark in context, the fact remains that the US, while far from perfect is far better then many other states.

Xenophobia is of course bad but acting like the US and the west in general is specially intolerant is stupid.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Following people would like to have a word with you on stopping to complain and get over it: Russians, Germans.

Epic post.

Hahah.

OT:

Video games aren't meant to be some cross examination of xenophobia. they're just ways to have fun and tell a story.

In short.

Get over it.

basically what i was going to say.

i know im not necessarily one of the main groups that being attacked, but seriously? its a fucking video game. they have done much worse in movies before and you HARDLY hear anything about them having to stop anytime soon.

people complain and complain, over shit that literally does NOT affect them beyond there own self esteem issues.

 

[Draconalis]

Frankly speaking, for me Muslims fall into the same category as all other religions.

I hate them in equal to the ratio of how much they are trying to interfere in my own life.

Muslims and Christians both try to change laws that don't fit their religion... Laws effect me regardless of my beliefs... thus they are trying to change my life, and thus I hate them both a great deal.

 

[skeanthu]

Eh don't sweat this, in 10 more years Christians will be the extremist/terrorist in games. By then Muslims will have finished taking over Europe; and have a majority party stranglehold on the U.S. Congress and Senate.

 

[Theninja'skatana]

oops it didn't show his name my bad

 

[Lepre-Khan]

Agreed.

 

[TimeLord75]

maybe if moderate muslims took a more front and center position against extremists, and took back your religion from facists that seek to define it and jihad as some war against non believers, instead of the internal struggle with faith.

back when christianity was putting philosophers and scientists and jews to death as evil and non believers. islam welcomed science and other faiths.

sure does not help the islamic cause when chrisitans on one hand are often ridiculed and made the but of jokes and downright belittlement they take more or less with a grain of salt. but south park dares use the name and "image" of muhammid and they get death threats pouring in so they have to bleep even the name.

islam can be a beautiful religion and people that follow it can be caring generous and accepting even of non believers, but far too often do the vocal minority of the extremists rise to the top and belittle the rest of you.

This. I'm real sorry, but however beautiful Islam may be as a religion (and I'm sure there are loving, caring & generally accepting people of faith in Islam), it's still a religion. This means its core is based on the belief that a Big Daddy Figure In The Sky wrote (or in this case, dictated to an illiterate) Everything You'll Ever Need To Know, Ever. (Seriously, that's one of the tenets of Islam--everything you'll ever need to know about the world and how to interact with it is contained within the Qu'ran.) So long as religion maintains its stranglehold over the Middle East (and the West as well, actually), any kind of peace or "live & let live" is extremely unlikely.

On a related topic--the Community Center presently under construction in NYC--I fail to see why Muslims should be so upset over popular resistance to it. Let be honest: How many Christian churches are constructed in Muslim countries with fanfare and confetti?

If Islam truly is a religion of peace, love, understanding and acceptance of "the other", then damnit, PROVE IT. Reclaim your faith from the extremist mullahs and the psychopaths with the AK-47s. Don't just shrug and wriggle and whine about how "it's just a small but vocal minority...". Take the hint. Be vocal.

 

[The Big Eye]

It is hard to ignore a lot of the things that radicals do. That is the main problem with any religion. That there will always be people blindly following something and taking it to such an extreme that they are willing to kill over it. People need to think freely, decide for themselves if they want to die for no reason.

*facepalm*
The only difference between radicals committing crimes and ordinary, run-of-the-mill psychopaths committing crimes is that the religionists get more media attention. Same deal with violent video games.

Does being a gamer make you violent? Hell no. Does being a Muslim make you violent? Hell no. Does being from Texas make you violent?

...Jury's still out on that one.

Being Texan or a gamer has no ideology to conform to, it's just not comparable. The difference is there is a source of inspiration for religious violence deeply routed in the ideology. You would have to ignore a lot of evidence to equate Islamic terrorism with random psychopaths, they are gullible but quite sane.

No, the source of the inspiration is, at its heart, a hatred of Americans and American ideology. The teachings of Islam are antithetical to most of the practices of the Taliban, except by radical reinterpretation. In this case, the religion is used as a tool. Patriotism, money, ethnic pride, or any number of other incentives could have been used. My point is that the issue is far too complicated to blame on any one particular factor, be it Muslim religion or Arab culture, and if one does the conclusions one will reach are no better or morally justifiable than those of the Taliban themselves.

 

[nightkill]

Muslims should not be always considered bad guy's,we all are sinners,But Islamists are.
Read why...

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp

 

[duchaked]

"The aliens of the Halo franchise are more humanized than the bad guys in America's Army..." lol

and yeah...I mean it comes down to a WW2 game with Nazis, a COld War game with Communist Russians, or a modern game with turban-wearing Muslim extremists
and of course, any educated person would understand that not all the German soldiers were Nazis, not all Russians were Soviet KGB, and not all Muslims (I understand a small minority rather) are AK/RPG toting Terrorists

 

[duchaked]

It's not that surprising that the Muslim culture is depicted wrongly in videogames - most of them cater to Americans or Europeans, to whom the Muslim culture is something far away and out of reach. This is why the stereotyped image of Muslims exists and this is why it is no different to the image of the Japanese, Russians or South Americans.

As a Russian, I can only give you the following advice. Those are games. They depict bad guys. Every community has bad guys. If you know that your community has the same percentage of them as other ones, why should fiction bother you?

Also, True Lies. That's actually a comedy, or, at the very least, should not be taken seriously. If I were you, I would get offended at movies like Black Hawk Down or something.

not everyone in America is a redneck cowboy haha...well, some educated students (hey, we have Muslim students here too!) know that there's a different between a Muslim and a Muslim extremist

so technically the game portrayals aren't incorrect stereotypes (unless it so happens they depict a wrong model of an RPG launcher) until they declare all Muslims are Terrorists
which would be absurd

though honestly I would've expected more games to feature the North Koreans as the bad guys
since media seems to love the evil Asian guy...meh
(I mean technically they aren't actively fighting with American forces, neither were the Soviets in the Cold War)

 

[Waif]

It is true that Muslims have been in a bad light (not near as much as Nazi's or Russians lol). However, Muslims have been attacking American values for just as long. Even today we can see hate speeches from Islamic leaders citing violence against Americans, and their way of life. I'm afraid I can't feel sympathetic towards a culture that hates democracy, it's values, and it's people. Also, they hate Jews with such a passion that it makes Nazi's look conservative. This is common knowledge, and also this:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.229799-Iran-Publishes-Anti-Israel-Videogames

Sorry, I'm just not buying that it is Muslims who are the real victims here. Of course, this is a matter of opinion.

This. Why is it such a big issue because it's about Muslims?

The Nazi's were bastards, and now the Germans are endlessly getting stick about it in virtually every shooter that comes out. You even get Nazi Zombies now. And they suck it up and move on.

Ditto for the Russians.

But Muslims? Nooo... can't do that. Their sensitive feelings might get hurt. Now keep in mind that those same 'sensitive' feelings:
- stone people,
- abuse and oppress women,
- rabidly denouce ANYTHING that isn't completely in line with THEIR religion (funny how they're allowed to criticise everyone else, but cannot be criticised themselves),
- call for murder on London and Amsterdam streets without getting arrested for promoting hate,
- commit terrorists acts,
and so on. Sure, it's not ALL of them. Many living in the Western world are just fine. But equally many are dragging their junk across into our world and stoning/honor killing people in Western countries now too!

So no. I don't have much sympathy at all.

When the 'moderate' Muslims are prepared to stand up and say "No! This is not acceptable!" and do something to stop it, then we've got room to talk. But the vast majority only ever go as far as "No! This is not acceptable. But I can understand why you're doing it, and even though I won't do it myself, I kinda support YOU doing it." and then do nothing to stop it.

Until they stand up to be counted, they can all bugger off.

Quoted for truth, though not sure why I was quoted in particular lol! This post covers many of the things I never said in my initial post. It is true that it seems that Muslims feel they can criticize anyone, but will not tolerate being criticized themselves. Thanks for the post ^~^! It's good to know that truth seekers are still out there.

Oh, I'm sorry, then. Truth, and goodness then depends on the perspective, and it's proponents. Your logic is flawed. You are then implicitly justifying anything, depending on when, where, and whom it matters to.

I'm sure the Nazis were right in their own mind, and all the Jews should suck it up, because the moderate anti-semits in Germany, and elsewhere in Europe, should have just raised their voices when the Nuremberg laws were passed.

EDIT: Just an fyi: goodness, truth, and morality is just a matter of perspective. Nothing, and everything is justified. I'm only assuming that you believe in some sort of a constant "truth" or "morality."

This is where you are wrong. Truth is not based on perspective, if we still believed that, the earth would still be flat. Unless you are a flat earther? In that event,let me introduce you to what is in fact truth. For instance, truth is indivisible in it's definition as: Conformity to fact or actuality. Which is objective, and not subjective as you have stated. This invalidates your claim in it's entirety. Therefore it is your logic that is flawed. Allow me to drive the point home further. There are absolute truths, ones that cannot be questioned. Because to say that there is no such thing as an absolute truth is a self-defeating statement. Because if that statement were not in itself an absolute it would be false!

Truth is a constant, and is supported largely by the factual, not the opinion. In the case of the flat earth, people believed that the earth was flat because that was all the knew. This didn't make it the truth, simply because they believed it. In fact 500 years later, we now know that the earth is round. Perspective can change, the truth, however, remains the same. Unless you actually believe that upon thinking the earth is round, that it suddenly became round?

Morality is another story that is subjective and is based on perspective. As are the concepts of good and evil. For the record, I never said anything about morality. You did. Truth supersedes the subjective. I spoke in terms of truth as in factual evidence that you can find anywhere. On the subject of morality. Look up Honor killings some time. If you don't think that is evil, well, then there is nothing that can be done for you.

 

[Kelethor]

This is clearly a difficult issue, one that will divide the Escapist for many years to come. And as much as I would like to go back To Team Fortress 2 and try to pretend this all never happended, I feel something should be said.

A protagonist's skin color or religious belief's would not make for an interesting character. the way a protagonist behaves and responds to the world around him however, does. I do believe that more game developers should try and differentiate the idea of what a protagonist should be, But at the same time, I am worried that the game may be hurt because of it. For Example, lets take...Uncharted. if Nathan Drake skin color was changed to what you would call a "middle eastern" skin color, for example, do you think Uncharted would sell less? Nothing about the character would change, except his skin color. you might not think it would, as would I, but i quickly learned that changing something people take for granted, will very quickly get you few friends.

During our social studies class, we were discussing the birth of Christianity during Roman times. I brought up that while most Medieval age paintings depict Jesus as white, it is more likely that he would be of middle eastern decent, with a tanned or even black skin color. let me tell you, I got more question glares that day then when I did a project about the Rape of Nanking.

I'm sorry for turning this discussion away from it's original intention, but I do think that for the most part, the western world is...well, afraid of having a middle eastern protagonist.