My friend says the "Good guys come last" theory is BS

[Guitarmasterx7]

I have a friend who's a "good guy." He's had a few girlfriends, but he's been going out with the current one for about 3 years and he went out with the one before this one for around 4. I'm a complete dick who's never had a relationship last over a few months but I've shagged easily 10 times the girls he has. Depends on what you're looking for. I personally couldn't handle the same girl for over a year, but assuming we're talking about a long term relationship I would probably venture to say that nice guys don't come last. If you're looking for something more shallow however, yeah, nice guys are screwed.

 

[GrimSheeper]

WOW WOW WOW out of context.

That would have been helpful for better understanding what you said. I couldn't have come to a different conclusion from just reading that you kissed a drunk girl. I apologise for jumping to that conclusion.

 

[MGlBlaze]

seriously? you have never had a drunk girl lay one on you out of the blue. It happens all the time, sure if you went in for it it's dickish. But im willing to make a hefty bet that she probably just landed one on him.

Good point.
I've never had that happen to me, though. I was at a party thing once a few weeks ago, though. Predictably a lot of people got drunk (none of which were the people I met and I liked, fortunately).
What did happen to me was one guy putting his arm around me and me pushing him away using reasonable force, followed by a girl he was with taking my hat. I got it back eventually, but not after I'd gotten quite angry.

I hate drunk people...

 

[WingedIncubus]

To them I say grow a spine and some balls and give it a go, if you get rejected so what?

And this demonstrates that you don't know exactly what it's like to be treated as a barely-sapient freak. If I get rejected by a woman, I go down among any and all of her friends which I would have contact with as some sort of monster - one which has the impunity to try to drag themselves onto the level of humanity. When you're basically stuck with either the options of not asking women any more and being completely rejected as a functioning part of humanity, you don't tend to go for the option which makes things rather more difficult for you.

Wait, her friends would consider you as a freak because you want to date one of them? Re-read what you just have written, it's insane. Most women, total strangers, smile and like having a conversation with me. At most, they ignore me or politely act in such a way that it is obvious that they are not interested. Why? Because I come across as fun-loving, cool, unafraid of them, and treating them as fellow human beings. It's all in how you look and carry yourself, dude.

I think you are projecting your own lack of self-confidence and powerlessness onto them. And women pick on that. If you act and talk and exhibit the body language of a dweeb, you'll be seen as a dweeb. Guess what, attractive girls don't have time for dweebs, unless they need a well-paid sucker to settle down.

First, who cares? I don't give a hoot if they think I'm a freak or not, I don't let the opinion of uninformed others get to me. They don't know how a great, fun-loving guy I am. If they treat you like a barely-sapient freak, it's because you act and come across a barely-sapient freak, very low in the pecking order.

Second, who cares about her friends? They're not your friends, they don't know you. Ignore them, and go for the girl. If they act pissy, act in consequence. No one's forcing you to like them.

Third, why not considering a third option: that the problem is YOU and that you need to change? Why not stop acting and looking like a dweeb and coming across as a nerd? Improve your clothing style, groom yourself, hit the gym to pack some muscle, go out more often with your friends, socialize, tease the girls, have fun, etc. In other words change your "loser" mentality and shape yourself up to be a better man. Real men work and overcome obstacles as they go, they don't throw up their hands in the air and whine and complain.

 

[WingedIncubus]

Also, I'd like to add.

Nice guys aren't good guys. Nice guys finish last. Good guys, with good qualities, personality, manliness, and confidence, win and keep the girls in the end.

 

[WingedIncubus]

Self professed "nice guys" are just hiding behind that so they don't have to try. To them I say grow a spine and some balls and give it a go, if you get rejected so what? They probably weren't right for you anyway (probably a bit arrogant, but a tiny bit arrogance isn't a bad thing)

They could reject you for a gazillion reason that have nothing to do with you: she might have a boyfriend (not all girls are cheating hoes all the time), she might not be in the mood, she might be stressed, she might be in a lesbian phase, she might be having a bad day, she might just be wanting to be alone for a while, she might have a turn-off about a certain color, she might be in the horny mode but she wants a bad boy, etc. The best attitude to have is that it's not you, it's her. Girls reject on what they feel like on the moment, unless the guy is clearly unattractive and making her go "ew! ew! ew!".

But the good thing is: girls have a reset button. Disappear from her view long enough to forget about you, and come back with a vengeance, and she might have a totally different opinion of you on the spot. It's one of the only way that I know that works to get out of the friend zone (other than making her jealous by getting other chicks).

There are millions of girls over there, why letting one rejecting you get through your shell? It's her loss, she is the one who's missing on a great time together and a great future. If she fumbles the ball, another will pick it up.

 

[Uncreation]

Girls don't dislike "nice guys". The problem is that most guys who say they're "nice" are actually manipulative and trying to play an angle just like the bad boys, except they don't have enough balls to come out and say it. The reason why girls get with bad guys (and don't stay with them) is because they are sure of themselves enough to do their own thing, and the girl likes the feeling that she's not taking care of the guy.

Myself, I always put myself in the selfless category - I was always there with a kind word, doing anything for the person I was with, always a shoulder to cry on, etc. - and the problem is not that this isn't a good thing (and to be honest, I'd say most girls want this in the person they're with). The issue is that guys take it too far overboard and stop seeing that a relationship is a two-way street. Now that I've had good relationships, I've realized that girls and guys really want equality - they want to be there to help us just as much as they want us to be there for them. Having the confidence to set boundaries and voice your needs? That's what's really attractive to a woman.

What women really want? They want a confident man with his own goals and ambitions that he is working towards, self-respect and self-discipline to push every day to attain these goals, a supportive nature that helps foster growth for both people, consideration, romance and affection. A big penis wouldn't hurt either.

Am I close to the mark, ladies?

Close. Big penises are overrated.

Seriously, guys are the only ones who care about penis size. For girls, as long as you're not minuscule and you know what you're doing (or are attempting to learn, if it's withing the context of a relationship), that's all that matters.

Actually i have been told by multiple female friends, and i have heard other women talk about it too, that this is not true. Size does acually matter. So i don't believe you. I think for most women it does. Sure, they might endure a small penis if they like the guy in general, but it's hardly ideal i think.

Not the case with any of the women I know. I hear more complaints about men being too large than too small. The average vagina is only 3-4 inches deep and can extend by a couple more inches during sex, so pretty much anything beyond 6 inches is wasted (if not harmful; cervical bruising is not fun). It's only there for bragging rights.

Also, there's a bit of middle ground between "large" and "small" there. As I said above, minuscule isn't really desirable. The ideal size is somewhere in the middle, attached to someone who knows what they're doing.

I don't think i've ever heard complaints about it being too large, but i'm sure it can happen. And of course skill matters as well. What i was trying to point out was that size does indeed matter as far as i've heard, despite some people trying to convince others of the contrary.

Girth matters, yes, but as for length, my comments stand.

And I have definitely heard plenty of "too large" comments. Just one example: a group of friends saw pictures of Rasputin's penis (which is 11" long). Rather than saying "Damn, I wish my boyfriend's were like that" (or other expected remarks), the response was "Holy crap, if I saw that thing coming after me, I'd run for the hills."

You know, you're example is just another case of size mattering actually. Being too large is indeed a problem, just like being too small is, though being too small gets talked about more (as far as i know). I don't know which of these problems is more common though. It would be interesting to know.

Anyway, i remain of the opinion that size does indeed matter.

@Stasisesque: Agreed.

reCaptcha: senteral evidence stop the presses: we have evidence of senteral. apparently

 

[WingedIncubus]

Size matters only if you have a micropenis or if you are akind to a John Holmes freak. And guess what, most women didn't like having sex with John Holmes.

Width and girth is more important than length. If it is too long it bumps onto the cervix, which is... uncomfortable or painful for women. Looks good on surface, but to most women the perfect penis is slightly above average, not too long so that it hurts, but large enough that she can feel it. And that's if she is vaginal, most women are more into clitoris-stimulating.

Even an average penis looks bigger from the woman's point of view than a man's birdview from above, who is used to see his package. Even an average penis seen upclose can be a little intimidating to a woman. If the pubic hair is trimmed or shaved, it gives the illusion that it is bigger and larger.

Don't judge on "size matters" porn, you don't see the numerous cuts because the porn star has to go to the toilet every ten minutes because the actor's repeatedly hitting her cervix, and she has to fake that it is the best sex she is ever having. And of course porn stars will say publicly that they like it big, the whole industry is built around this. But in her real life it's not like she will ask to a guy approaching her whether he has it big or not. That would incredibly socially retarded, just like guys asking the girl whether she has big boobs.

If you have a woman who's a size queen in front of you, at least you know you can screen her out on good reasons: that she will never like you as you are because you are, well, normal. She's into freaks, and she will never like you as you are. If the conversation turns around on her asking or being curious about your package stats, it's a huge red flag.

 

[Uncreation]

Size matters only if you have a micropenis. Width and girth is more important than length. If it is too long it bumps onto the cervix, which is... uncomfortable or painful for women. Looks good on surface, but to most women the perfect penis is slightly above average, not too long so that it hurts, but large enough that she can feel it. And that's if she is vaginal, most women are more into clitoris-stimulating.

Even an average penis looks bigger from the woman's point of view than a man's birdview from above. Don't judge on "size matters" porn, you don't see the numerous cuts because the porn star has to go to the toilet every ten minutes because the actor's repeatedly hitting her cervix, and she has to fake that it is the best sex she is ever having. And of course porn stars will say publicly that they like it big, the whole industry is built around this. But in her real life it's not like she will ask to a guy approaching her whether he has it big or not. That would incredibly socially retarded.

If you have a woman who's a size queen in front of you, at least you know you can screen her out on good reasons: that she will never like you as you are because you are, well, normal. She's into freaks, and she will never like you for your character.

Never said anything about porn. I was talking about real life. And you yourself said, for most women, the perfect penis is a bit above average. So below average is not that perfect, though far from horrible. For example something like 10cm is far from great, even if it's not a micropenis. I don't even know why we're continuing this part of the discution, as it seems to me even people seem to contradict me don't fully dissagree with the idea that size matters.

 

[WingedIncubus]

Never said anything about porn. I was talking about real life. And you yourself said, for most women, the perfect penis is a bit above average. So below average is not that perfect, though far from horrible. For example something like 10cm is far from great, even if it's not a micropenis. I don't even know why we're continuing this part of the discution, as it seems to me even people seem to contradict me don't fully dissagree with the idea that size matters.

I brought out porn, because it's the standard most people use for a "big penis", but without knowing what having sex with a big penis really entails. Most women will say either that they like it bigger or that size doesn't matter, but action speaks louder than words.

I agree with you that size matters - up to a point. But most women would not immediately be turned off by a below average penis, unless she is herself obsessed by this. The average is that - 5 inches, or 12.5 centimeters - most guys have a penis around that average, period.

Only woman with a certain fetish - and it is a fetish - would deliberately seek men with penises way bigger than the average, so they are easy to screen out - they'll be blatant about it.

If a woman would start to berate me or treat me differently because she'd feel disappointed by my penis, I would simply freeze everything off and immediately kick her out of my apartment. It's a huge lack of respect to any man, as it is a very sensitive issue. I have sex only with girls that show me respect - unless their lack of respect is totally within the roleplay and the kinkiness of the sex we are having, and this subject would be a huge no-no anyway.

 

[Rooster893]

Well then, girls are not looking in the right place for a significant other. If all they're looking for in a guy is confidence, then they are doomed to heartbreak. Most good guys I know though, are VERY confident in what they do and believe that they are VERY capable of what they can do. So her philosophy has a nice giant hole in it.

 

[Evan Martella]

I'm happy that one-tossed off comment caused a ruckus about penis size in here.

OT: I think the main thing that's important to realize, and some people have mentioned it already, is having your own complete life is the most attractive thing you can offer to a woman. Being "confident" doesn't mean to do bad-boy acts or play games (like ignoring a girl, treating her badly to make her question "what's wrong with me?", etc.). Confidence is having your own IDENTITY and not being afraid to stand up for what you believe in. If you're dismissive and cold (like a bad boy) or too eager and fickle (a "nice guy") you're not going to have a good relationship.

Like most things, the best course is in the middle. Live your life, don't rush things, and you'll find someone who will treat you like you deserve.

 

[Inglip]

I have probably met 200-ish women since I hit the age of 16 and I have asked out 9 girls all to be rejected, friend zoned and manipulated all the time. I am the nicest guy in my group and I treat women like the goddesses they are, and you know what I am finishing so far last I haven't even left the starting gate (and the furthest I have ever gotten was kissing a girl who was so drunk she could only just about walk). I could show them so much and give them all the love in the world, but no, I have no confidence and refuse to make a move because of so many rejections I fear they will end the same way and hurt me. They destroy me at every attempt and make me feel like death every time I see them, but hey! I will keep trying until it kills me.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_VSrnkiWaqSQ/TMdBQsCZScI/AAAAAAAAAZI/r7M0LAXkxW0/s1600/forever+alone+face.png

Dude, if it wasn't for that picture I'd have thought you were serious.

How silly of me. Nobody could be that pathetic.

 

[Dastardly]

Now, first of all, she's in a relationship, has been for years now. She says that that the ideals that some guys have about good guys getting the cold shoulder by girls is bs because if they were really that good, they would be taken already, that plenty of females are looking for a stable relationship with a reliable guy.

Her opinion on the fact that "girls often prefer guys that are bad boys" is this, they are far more confident, in themselves and in thier abilities so they stand out more and if one considers themself a good guy, they should prove it by demonstrating that they are within thier ability to be a dependable boyfriend / husband.

So what do you guys and girls think? Does she have a point, or is she missing something?

She has something of a point.

In large part, the average short-term relationship (where all relationships begin) is based on the Principle of Least Interest: whoever is least interested in the relationship has the most control. It makes perfect sense if you think about it--if you don't particularly care whether or not the relationship lasts, and your partner does, the partner has the burden of working hard to keep you interested.

Those that term themselves "nice guys" are usually the "do-ers." They go out of their way to do things for the girl, demonstrate their feelings and affections... and, in doing so, put themselves under the constant burden of being the "worker" of the relationship. She is given the power, and thus less incentive to be interested.

Other guy comes along who is attractive... and the girl is interested. He, being termed "a jerk," is less interested. This frustrates her (in the same way the "nice guy" is frustrated by the girl's disinterest), so she works even harder to try to make him interested. He is given the power.

Now, the "nice guy" gets frustrated because she doesn't seem turned off by the fact that this guy is obviously not interested in treating her with equal care... but isn't she just doing exactly what the "nice guy" is doing? In fact, he is. He is criticizing her for being just like himself.

It's not that people are attracted to "jerks," whether male or female. It's that people believe in their ability to exert control over their environments, and that includes other people. When someone you're interested in isn't interested in you, that makes them more interesting as you try to figure out how you can "fix" them so they reciprocate your interest.

NOTE: This doesn't prove the old "Act like you're not interested and you'll get her," much less the old "Be a jerk and you'll get women," theories, though. In order for this principle to work, she has to be attracted to the guy. You can't force that, you can't reason it out, it's entirely in her court. She can like your company, like the things you do for her, and like the way you make her feel... but that doesn't mean she's attracted to you.