My friend says the "Good guys come last" theory is BS

[Sutter Cane]

I consider myself a fairly nice guy, but i don't cpnsider it my defning trait (that would be my geekiness) and I do have a problem getting relationships due to self confidence. I know exactly what causes this too, I just have no idea what to do to get rid of this problem. The two problems are as folows.

1. most importantly, I am absolutely horrible at "reading" peoples intentions.

2. I have no relationship experience (so I have no idea hat the f**k I'm doing) which greatly compounds the first problem.

So yeah i have no idea how to get myself out of this problem. Any help from other escapists would be appreciated.

 

[GothmogII]

When did "nice guy"/"good guy" come to equal "doormat"?

Does being of good alignment and nice to others rule out being assertive and self-confident?

I mean, if you're working under the assumption that "nice/good" means unassertive, timid, introvert etc., then of course "good guys" come in last. If on the other hand it means not being a dick (to women and in general), then it shouldn't have any adverse effects; quite the contrary.

Wonder how much of this is cultural? From what I've read there's supposed to be some kind of east/west extreme when it comes to cultural personality. Mainly, in the US people are more confidant to the point where some people over-rate their competency and importance. Individuality is the big thing. In Asian countries it seems to be the reverse, where people will under-rate themselves and generally focus on trying to aid, and fit in with the group rather than focus on themselves, often to the detriment of their own personal health.

Of course, that's not to say those things don't exist in the West and vice-versa. Just that it seems to be the most pronounced attitudes on display.


Netch, back on topic though, I've thought about it a lot, but my thinking may be flawed, after all, how can you form a well-rounded opinion of something if you've no experience of both sides of a thing?

It's all very well for me to say that: I've come to the realisation that loneliness is simply an outgrowth of a distinct lack of fulfilment of sexual or reproductive desire and have therefore, along with realising my own incompetencies (lack of confidence, passion or drive), I have thus resigned myself to be alone the rest of my life and that it doesn't bother me.

But, there are several things wrong with that paragraph. Firstly, it's giving up without having tried. (Quite literally.) Secondly, it is a distinctly one-sided perspective, and not an opinion come to after actually taking an action and experience. Thirdly, resignation aside, pangs of loneliness do happen on occasion, I can ignore them, but, that's not the same as the situation not bothering me.

At the same time, there are few other alternatives. Either I do something about it (unlikely) or, go with the resignation and try not to let it lead to other unfortunate consequences. After all, Nicola Tesla was celibate and he seemed like a pretty sharp cookie.

Mind you, don't take this the same as complaining about it. I'm well aware just who's fault it is: Mine.


As an addendum, how does the adage: There someone for everyone, go?

 

[Uncreation]

Actually i have been told by multiple female friends, and i have heard other women talk about it too, that this is not true. Size does acually matter. So i don't believe you. I think for most women it does. Sure, they might endure a small penis if they like the guy in general, but it's hardly ideal i think.

You're wrong. Sorry.

About which part? The one where people i know tell me something? How am i wrong about that? If you're sugesting i'm lying i assure you i'm not.

well when people mean "size" what they are thinking of is length

when its really width [/B] thats important, think about it also youve got to knwo what your doing

I know that width is the more important part. I guess i should have specified, to avoid confusion. But width is a part of "size" just like length, so i still think it's correct to say "size matters".

 

[Vault101]

but mabye you should look at yourself from an outsiders perspective

Problem is that this doesn't help me much either. I'll demonstrate.

-whats good about me as a person?

I'm reasonably intelligent and moderately polite. I've managed to maintain relatively good manners.

-am I attractive?

No.

-am I confident?

God, no.

-why would somone want to date me?[/B]

They wouldn't, unless they were insane. And that's not something that can be changed.

you sure about that?

I mean if youve truly accepted that as your fate then I guess you dont have a problem

but changing is possible, not only a haircut and clothes but perhaps how you veiw yourself

anyway the difference here is a "nice guy" as in the bad kind, dosnt understand why women dont want to date him and so he labels them as shallow

 

[Gigano]

When did "nice guy"/"good guy" come to equal "doormat"?

Does being of good alignment and nice to others rule out being assertive and self-confident?

I mean, if you're working under the assumption that "nice/good" means unassertive, timid, introvert etc., then of course "good guys" come in last. If on the other hand it means not being a dick (to women and in general), then it shouldn't have any adverse effects; quite the contrary.

Wonder how much of this is cultural? From what I've read there's supposed to be some kind of east/west extreme when it comes to cultural personality. Mainly, in the US people are more confidant to the point where some people over-rate their competency and importance. Individuality is the big thing. In Asian countries it seems to be the reverse, where people will under-rate themselves and generally focus on trying to aid, and fit in with the group rather than focus on themselves, often to the detriment of their own personal health.

Of course, that's not to say those things don't exist in the West and vice-versa. Just that it seems to be the most pronounced attitudes on display.
...

Certainly some truth to that, cultural history and ideals are fairly different. With the increased wealth all over Asia interdependence on others gradually weaken though, so I'm convinced individualism will have its day.

Just look at most digital entertainment from there, many of its messages are all about anti-conformity, self-confidence, and pursuing an individually set goal (undoubtedly why it appeals to certain westerners as well).

It's all very well for me to say that: I've come to the realisation that loneliness is simply an outgrowth of a distinct lack of fulfilment of sexual or reproductive desire and have therefore, along with realising my own incompetencies (lack of confidence, passion or drive), I have thus resigned myself to be alone the rest of my life and that it doesn't bother me.

Don't really think it's all about the sex. Loneliness is the response to a lack of "warm human relations", but they needn't be sexual in nature. It's certainly frustrating if such an important basic urge is not met, but it hardly precludes social interaction.

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

Girls don't dislike "nice guys". The problem is that most guys who say they're "nice" are actually manipulative and trying to play an angle just like the bad boys, except they don't have enough balls to come out and say it. The reason why girls get with bad guys (and don't stay with them) is because they are sure of themselves enough to do their own thing, and the girl likes the feeling that she's not taking care of the guy.

Myself, I always put myself in the selfless category - I was always there with a kind word, doing anything for the person I was with, always a shoulder to cry on, etc. - and the problem is not that this isn't a good thing (and to be honest, I'd say most girls want this in the person they're with). The issue is that guys take it too far overboard and stop seeing that a relationship is a two-way street. Now that I've had good relationships, I've realized that girls and guys really want equality - they want to be there to help us just as much as they want us to be there for them. Having the confidence to set boundaries and voice your needs? That's what's really attractive to a woman.

What women really want? They want a confident man with his own goals and ambitions that he is working towards, self-respect and self-discipline to push every day to attain these goals, a supportive nature that helps foster growth for both people, consideration, romance and affection. A big penis wouldn't hurt either.

Am I close to the mark, ladies?

Close. Big penises are overrated.

Seriously, guys are the only ones who care about penis size. For girls, as long as you're not minuscule and you know what you're doing (or are attempting to learn, if it's withing the context of a relationship), that's all that matters.

Actually i have been told by multiple female friends, and i have heard other women talk about it too, that this is not true. Size does acually matter. So i don't believe you. I think for most women it does. Sure, they might endure a small penis if they like the guy in general, but it's hardly ideal i think.

Not the case with any of the women I know. I hear more complaints about men being too large than too small. The average vagina is only 3-4 inches deep and can extend by a couple more inches during sex, so pretty much anything beyond 6 inches is wasted (if not harmful; cervical bruising is not fun). It's only there for bragging rights.

Also, there's a bit of middle ground between "large" and "small" there. As I said above, minuscule isn't really desirable. The ideal size is somewhere in the middle, attached to someone who knows what they're doing.

 

[Samwise137]

In my experience, good guys, such as myself and several of my buddies frequently find themselves in more of a confidante role than in a relationship. I, myself, got lucky and have been able to hold a somewhat stable relationship (I say somewhat because no relationship is perfect) with the same girl for almost four years but for the most part, we are cast aside. I see this frequently with one of my buddies in particular who tries very hard to wind up in a relationship but has only had one in the last few years while turning confidante for upwards of 12 or so girls.

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

I think she's got a fair point. I am not a nice guy. In fact, I'm a bit of a selfish prick. Yet, I've never even come close to having any sort of romantic interaction. What I don't understand is how you're supposed to have any sort of confidence when just about every woman you meet treats your interests as knowledge that Man Was Not Meant To Know.

In case you're wondering, yes, I do hate most women. Are you at all surprised?

Why does that mean she has a fair point? That sounds you disagree with her, then.

Also, confidence does not come from other people. You need to build it up on your own. Of course you have to keep an eye on the world around you and not let your confidence get out of hand (which is what douchebags do), but no one else can give you confidence. Once you like yourself, you'll be able to find people who like you. If you don't like yourself, being around you will make people feel awkward.

And you should change your attitude. If you go into situations assuming that women will hate you, and hating them for it, real life is probably going to match your assumptions.

Just a hunch, but the right women are probably in their houses playing video games, or at conventions. If you're going to bars hoping to meet women with similar interests, you're probably not going to have much luck.

(PS, my best friend never dated, and was never even kissed, until he was 30. He's very happy with his girlfriend now. There's always time.)

 

[Jamboxdotcom]

Well I think the vast majority of these so called great guys are shockingly misogynistic, by treating all women with contempt due to some personal rejection on their part. Instead of chalking it up to the fact that often someone just isn't into you, instead it's the fault of the entire female populace, who simply can't see how great they are.

So yeah, the kind of whiny guy who would proclaim nice guys finish last (in earnest) are just as annoying as the typical bad boys they complain about.

It is bullshit, in other words, yes.

exactly this. even as a "nice guy" myself, i've seen such a vast majority of "nice guys" act like whiney, entitled, misogynistic little assholes, that i've come to realize that the reason "nice guys finish last" is that there are no nice guys.

new joke (borrowed and altered from Chasing Amy ): there's a hundred dollar bill at the intersection of 4 streets. equidistant down each street is a person: Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, a man-loving lipstick lesbian, and a nice guy. who gets the money? the Easter Bunny, because while they're all imaginary, at least the rabbit should be fast!

 

[Woodsey]

"Good guys finish last" was invented by needy guys who have no idea where you drawn the line between nice and total lick-arse.

 

[Zaik]

Now, first of all, she's in a relationship, has been for years now. She says that that the ideals that some guys have about good guys getting the cold shoulder by girls is bs because if they were really that good, they would be taken already, that plenty of females are looking for a stable relationship with a reliable guy.

Her opinion on the fact that "girls often prefer guys that are bad boys" is this, they are far more confident, in themselves and in thier abilities so they stand out more and if one considers themself a good guy, they should prove it by demonstrating that they are within thier ability to be a dependable boyfriend / husband.

So what do you guys and girls think? Does she have a point, or is she missing something?

The second paragraph there has some truth to it, mainly

they are far more confident, in themselves and in thier abilities

The first paragraph and half of the second is all silly verbal filler bullshit that women love to put in pretty much everything they say. What a woman thinks she wants and what she wants are generally only the same thing when it involves something incredibly expensive.

 

[Adam28]

In a science study performed, people were given a number to wear on their heads. 1 to 10. They don't know what their number is but they can see other people's numbers. They are told to pare up with person with the highest number that they can. People of similar numbers ended up together. 5s got with 5s. 10s got with 10s. etc etc with little variance. The people with the high numbers could tell their number was high because of all the attention they got while the people with low numbers got no attention and had to try harder. So the high numbers held out for someone else with a high number while the people with low numbers go with whoever was left, other people with low numbers.

Ok so the thing is.... The "bad boys" ARE bad boys in part because women want them. He's a 8, a 9, or even a 10. Which means he has the attention of girls ranking from 1 all the way to 10. They don't HAVE to be nice. They already have some advantage, be it looks, popularity, or money, that makes them appealing to women. They don't have to try or care. Turn him down? Break up with him? He doesn't care. He'll be with another girl soon and he knows it. The 8 9 and 10 who aren't dicks get snatched up VERY quickly.

"Nice guys" are typically deficient in some way. Unattractive, insecure, poor, unpopular, lacking in social skills. They're the 1-6. Not only do they only get the attention of low rated women similar to themselves but those low rated women are trying for that 8, 9, and 10 guy anyway. Guys are just as guilty of this too but women are naturally much more choosy and thus fall into their behavior much more easily. "Nice guys" actually have to try to get a woman's attention and appreciate it when they do. They don't have the advantage and try to make up for it by giving the women what they think women want.

And yes, "Nice Guys" do finish last. They're the ones women get with after they realize the 8 9 and 10s don't want them but were happy to use them for a night or two.

These are broad generalizations but under all the logic, reasoning, hopeful thinking. You might think, hope, pray that we're more evolved than this but psychology studies have proven time and time again that we're not.

Great explanation, especially since it takes into account that other factors such as looks are at play.

A lot of people seem to think that perhaps confidence is everything but fail to see that everyone is different. People may also lack confidence due to being unattractive, being unpopular or whatever; traits that may be reasons for not being able to get a partner in the first play such as being constantly rejected due to appearance.

 

[Uncreation]

Girls don't dislike "nice guys". The problem is that most guys who say they're "nice" are actually manipulative and trying to play an angle just like the bad boys, except they don't have enough balls to come out and say it. The reason why girls get with bad guys (and don't stay with them) is because they are sure of themselves enough to do their own thing, and the girl likes the feeling that she's not taking care of the guy.

Myself, I always put myself in the selfless category - I was always there with a kind word, doing anything for the person I was with, always a shoulder to cry on, etc. - and the problem is not that this isn't a good thing (and to be honest, I'd say most girls want this in the person they're with). The issue is that guys take it too far overboard and stop seeing that a relationship is a two-way street. Now that I've had good relationships, I've realized that girls and guys really want equality - they want to be there to help us just as much as they want us to be there for them. Having the confidence to set boundaries and voice your needs? That's what's really attractive to a woman.

What women really want? They want a confident man with his own goals and ambitions that he is working towards, self-respect and self-discipline to push every day to attain these goals, a supportive nature that helps foster growth for both people, consideration, romance and affection. A big penis wouldn't hurt either.

Am I close to the mark, ladies?

Close. Big penises are overrated.

Seriously, guys are the only ones who care about penis size. For girls, as long as you're not minuscule and you know what you're doing (or are attempting to learn, if it's withing the context of a relationship), that's all that matters.

Actually i have been told by multiple female friends, and i have heard other women talk about it too, that this is not true. Size does acually matter. So i don't believe you. I think for most women it does. Sure, they might endure a small penis if they like the guy in general, but it's hardly ideal i think.

Not the case with any of the women I know. I hear more complaints about men being too large than too small. The average vagina is only 3-4 inches deep and can extend by a couple more inches during sex, so pretty much anything beyond 6 inches is wasted (if not harmful; cervical bruising is not fun). It's only there for bragging rights.

Also, there's a bit of middle ground between "large" and "small" there. As I said above, minuscule isn't really desirable. The ideal size is somewhere in the middle, attached to someone who knows what they're doing.

I don't think i've ever heard complaints about it being too large, but i'm sure it can happen. And of course skill matters as well. What i was trying to point out was that size does indeed matter as far as i've heard, despite some people trying to convince others of the contrary.

 

[-AC80-]

the furthest I have ever gotten was kissing a girl who was so drunk she could only just about walk

Honestly, that's disgusting. You took advantage of a girl barely capable of motor functions and one step away from falling unconscious and still consider yourself a good guy?
I think you're a bit delusional then.

WOW WOW WOW out of context. ok yes she was drunk so i drove her home, she fell out of my car so i went out and helped her up she crabbed my opposed shoulder and went on to me. IT WASN'T MY FAULT OR PURPOSE!!!!! i helped her into her house cleaned up her up and left. i told her the next day, and it was fine.

it wasn't my fault i was helping her out and it was an accident and a bit of drunken delusion on her part.

 

[Stasisesque]

Girls don't dislike "nice guys". The problem is that most guys who say they're "nice" are actually manipulative and trying to play an angle just like the bad boys, except they don't have enough balls to come out and say it. The reason why girls get with bad guys (and don't stay with them) is because they are sure of themselves enough to do their own thing, and the girl likes the feeling that she's not taking care of the guy.

Myself, I always put myself in the selfless category - I was always there with a kind word, doing anything for the person I was with, always a shoulder to cry on, etc. - and the problem is not that this isn't a good thing (and to be honest, I'd say most girls want this in the person they're with). The issue is that guys take it too far overboard and stop seeing that a relationship is a two-way street. Now that I've had good relationships, I've realized that girls and guys really want equality - they want to be there to help us just as much as they want us to be there for them. Having the confidence to set boundaries and voice your needs? That's what's really attractive to a woman.

What women really want? They want a confident man with his own goals and ambitions that he is working towards, self-respect and self-discipline to push every day to attain these goals, a supportive nature that helps foster growth for both people, consideration, romance and affection. A big penis wouldn't hurt either.

Am I close to the mark, ladies?

Close. Big penises are overrated.

Seriously, guys are the only ones who care about penis size. For girls, as long as you're not minuscule and you know what you're doing (or are attempting to learn, if it's withing the context of a relationship), that's all that matters.

Actually i have been told by multiple female friends, and i have heard other women talk about it too, that this is not true. Size does acually matter. So i don't believe you. I think for most women it does. Sure, they might endure a small penis if they like the guy in general, but it's hardly ideal i think.

Not the case with any of the women I know. I hear more complaints about men being too large than too small. The average vagina is only 3-4 inches deep and can extend by a couple more inches during sex, so pretty much anything beyond 6 inches is wasted (if not harmful; cervical bruising is not fun). It's only there for bragging rights.

Also, there's a bit of middle ground between "large" and "small" there. As I said above, minuscule isn't really desirable. The ideal size is somewhere in the middle, attached to someone who knows what they're doing.

I don't think i've ever heard complaints about it being too large, but i'm sure it can happen. And of course skill matters as well. What i was trying to point out was that size does indeed matter as far as i've heard, despite some people trying to convince others of the contrary.

It shouldn't matter, especially not in a loving, stable relationship - but you're quite right, it does indeed matter, especially in a casual hookup.

To say girls don't care about penis size is at best naive and at worst just plain wrong. Whilst ability matters more, size is important.

 

[Darkauthor81]

snip

Great explanation, especially since it takes into account that other factors such as looks are at play.

A lot of people seem to think that perhaps confidence is everything but fail to see that everyone is different. People may also lack confidence due to being unattractive, being unpopular or whatever; traits that may be reasons for not being able to get a partner in the first play such as being constantly rejected due to appearance.

People don't want to hear that though. They want to hear that there's just something they're doing wrong. The idea that they can't find dates is because genetics gave them the middle finger while they were still in the womb. That they'd need to overhaul themselves in the gym. That the job they have doesn't pay enough. Or that they have no social skills and say things that make a chills go up the spine of the opposite gender (the bad chills, not the good chills). No that's a bleak reality most people don't want to face either because they're on the wrong end of it or that they'd like to believe our baser instincts don't hold influence over our lives any more. They do, and in no area more so than choosing a mate.

 

[Marcosn]

In a science study performed, people were given a number to wear on their heads. 1 to 10. They don't know what their number is but they can see other people's numbers. They are told to pare up with person with the highest number that they can. People of similar numbers ended up together. 5s got with 5s. 10s got with 10s. etc etc with little variance. The people with the high numbers could tell their number was high because of all the attention they got while the people with low numbers got no attention and had to try harder. So the high numbers held out for someone else with a high number while the people with low numbers go with whoever was left, other people with low numbers.

Ok so the thing is.... The "bad boys" ARE bad boys in part because women want them. He's a 8, a 9, or even a 10. Which means he has the attention of girls ranking from 1 all the way to 10. They don't HAVE to be nice. They already have some advantage, be it looks, popularity, or money, that makes them appealing to women. They don't have to try or care. Turn him down? Break up with him? He doesn't care. He'll be with another girl soon and he knows it. The 8 9 and 10 who aren't dicks get snatched up VERY quickly.

"Nice guys" are typically deficient in some way. Unattractive, insecure, poor, unpopular, lacking in social skills. They're the 1-6. Not only do they only get the attention of low rated women similar to themselves but those low rated women are trying for that 8, 9, and 10 guy anyway. Guys are just as guilty of this too but women are naturally much more choosy and thus fall into their behavior much more easily. "Nice guys" actually have to try to get a woman's attention and appreciate it when they do. They don't have the advantage and try to make up for it by giving the women what they think women want.

And yes, "Nice Guys" do finish last. They're the ones women get with after they realize the 8 9 and 10s don't want them but were happy to use them for a night or two.

These are broad generalizations but under all the logic, reasoning, hopeful thinking. You might think, hope, pray that we're more evolved than this but psychology studies have proven time and time again that we're not.

Thankyou! This just saved me alot of time trying (and failing) to describe the same thing.
Also i highly disagree with alot of the people that are saying "man up" or "change who you are" if a person wants you to change who you are or isn't happy with how you are now then they're not worth it. If they don't like YOU then screw them, theres always people that will.

I REALLY thought this was going to be sexual.

This made me LOL and made this thread much better for me :')

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

Girls don't dislike "nice guys". The problem is that most guys who say they're "nice" are actually manipulative and trying to play an angle just like the bad boys, except they don't have enough balls to come out and say it. The reason why girls get with bad guys (and don't stay with them) is because they are sure of themselves enough to do their own thing, and the girl likes the feeling that she's not taking care of the guy.

Myself, I always put myself in the selfless category - I was always there with a kind word, doing anything for the person I was with, always a shoulder to cry on, etc. - and the problem is not that this isn't a good thing (and to be honest, I'd say most girls want this in the person they're with). The issue is that guys take it too far overboard and stop seeing that a relationship is a two-way street. Now that I've had good relationships, I've realized that girls and guys really want equality - they want to be there to help us just as much as they want us to be there for them. Having the confidence to set boundaries and voice your needs? That's what's really attractive to a woman.

What women really want? They want a confident man with his own goals and ambitions that he is working towards, self-respect and self-discipline to push every day to attain these goals, a supportive nature that helps foster growth for both people, consideration, romance and affection. A big penis wouldn't hurt either.

Am I close to the mark, ladies?

Close. Big penises are overrated.

Seriously, guys are the only ones who care about penis size. For girls, as long as you're not minuscule and you know what you're doing (or are attempting to learn, if it's withing the context of a relationship), that's all that matters.

Actually i have been told by multiple female friends, and i have heard other women talk about it too, that this is not true. Size does acually matter. So i don't believe you. I think for most women it does. Sure, they might endure a small penis if they like the guy in general, but it's hardly ideal i think.

Not the case with any of the women I know. I hear more complaints about men being too large than too small. The average vagina is only 3-4 inches deep and can extend by a couple more inches during sex, so pretty much anything beyond 6 inches is wasted (if not harmful; cervical bruising is not fun). It's only there for bragging rights.

Also, there's a bit of middle ground between "large" and "small" there. As I said above, minuscule isn't really desirable. The ideal size is somewhere in the middle, attached to someone who knows what they're doing.

I don't think i've ever heard complaints about it being too large, but i'm sure it can happen. And of course skill matters as well. What i was trying to point out was that size does indeed matter as far as i've heard, despite some people trying to convince others of the contrary.

Girth matters, yes, but as for length, my comments stand.

And I have definitely heard plenty of "too large" comments. Just one example: a group of friends saw pictures of Rasputin's penis (which is 11" long). Rather than saying "Damn, I wish my boyfriend's were like that" (or other expected remarks), the response was "Holy crap, if I saw that thing coming after me, I'd run for the hills."

 

[Adam28]

snip

snip

People don't want to hear that though. They want to hear that there's just something they're doing wrong. The idea that they can't find dates is because genetics gave them the middle finger while they were still in the womb. That they'd need to overhaul themselves in the gym. That the job they have doesn't pay enough. Or that they have no social skills and say things that make a chills go up the spine of the opposite gender (the bad chills, not the good chills). No that's a bleak reality most people don't want to face either because they're on the wrong end of it or that they'd like to believe our baser instincts don't hold influence over our lives any more. They do, and in no area more so than choosing a mate.

Agree'd.

It is a harsh world we live in. I have to disagree with people saying that by just having confidence you will find a partner. Unfortunately, confidence isn't everything and I think the reason people believe in the "Good guys come last" theory is because they see themselves as good guys and therefore don't see any other reason or want to believe any other reason why they don't have a partner. This does not mean they are manipulative jerks or whatever some people in this thread are suggesting, they could just be lacking in something else.

Just my 2 cents there, might sound like rubbish as I feel like I went on a bit. :/