New York Teacher Tells Kids There Is No Santa Claus

[imnot]

I think santa is important, but for the following reason.

Discovering santa doesnt exist through rational thinking and questioning is a rite of intellectual passage for every child. I think it shows the point at which a child is mature and intelligent enough to reason logically and refute obviously false points. Less delusion. More logic. I think its important, and ill tell my kids santa is real, then make NO effort to keep up the lie. If they work it out i will praise them, explain it was a test, and give them more presents every year than i did previously. Win win.

I like this guy, he thinks like me.

Thats proberly not what he wanted to hear...

 

[BrainWalker]

Wow, that's some really unbiased, professional journalism there. Within the first 10 words, I was already disgusted with this "news" article. Impressive, Fox.

 

[Epona]

Oh, for fuck's sake. Years and years parents preach that teachers need to be an important part of children's upbringing, with values like honesty at the very center of the debate, and now they ***** about a teacher being honest and "demystifying" the fictional figurehead of a commercial (yes, commercial, deal with it) holiday?!
If there is any kind of justice in the world, the teacher will not only NOT get in trouble, but the school will also make a formal statement to the parents, politely telling them to go suck it. God. Damn. D:<

If an 8 year old kid asks the teacher to explain sex, should the teacher "be honest" and do it or should the teacher refuse to discuss the subject?

The latter is what should have happened here. Santa is like religion, You could claim religious beliefs are lies too because they lack proof but then you miss the point of religion.

Let's see... is sex considered inappropriate for kids of that age? How about... yes.

Is the truth about Santa inappropriate at any age? Let's see... no.

Ok then. If a kid asked the teacher "Is there a God". What would the teacher do? Would he "be honest" and say that there is no scientific proof of a God or would he refuse to discuss it?

Let's see... is the government allowed to have an official position on God? No.

Is the government allowed to have a position on Santa Claus? Yes

Do the parents actually believe in Santa Claus? No
Might the parents actually believe in God? Yes.

This is not hard.

1) I wasn't aware the government had a position on Santa. What is the governments position on Santa?

2) I never said God and Santa were identical just that the belief is similar and not to be discussed in schools.

1) Maybe if you stopped to think a bit you might realize obvious things about the first amendment and what teachers are allowed to say given that they're employed by the government. But that would require thinking instead of reactionary BS.

2) Yes, you said they're similar and not to be discussed on school based on nothing solid, except a stupid comparison of concepts that are quite different legally(due to the 1st Amendment) and culturally.

Oh I see.

Well, let's look at your line of reasoning. It is also not illegal (according to the 1st Amendment) to answer those sex questions either. So would you be ok with the teacher telling the class all about sex because being honest is more important than the desires of parents?

It's not about legal or illegal. Religion is not discussed in schools because it is outside the scope of school as is a belief or non belief in Santa.

It's outside of the scope for a reason that doesn't apply to Santa at all. Further the teachers do not just restrict themselves to what is inside the scope of the school. The reason they restrict themselves from certain things is not JUST because they're outside the scope of the school.

Like Santa, it's outside the scope of school. Santa is for parents to talk to their kids about. Legal, illegal, neither have any bearing on this topic.

Why are you repeating 'outside the scope of the school' junk when I already addressed it?

Surely you can agree that there are some things that should be left to parents to teach. Well, IMO this is one of those things. You don't want to tell your kid that Santa is real, fine but then wouldn't you be upset if the teacher told them the opposite?

How about no, this is not one of those things. It lacks enough importance to complain about.

It's apparently important enough for you to be here arguing about.

So you're resorting to pretending you lack the intelligence to make anything but childish and stupid replies? "Hur dur, look you're replying it's important!"

Wow, this post advanced the conversation.

If it's not important then why are you putting up such an argument?

If you're not playing stupid, why are you ignoring the blatant fact that not everything someone does with their time is that important? Why are you playing a stupid game of distraction by pretending it matters?

I don't argue about things that I don't think are important. I just figured most people are like that too. Do you just argue for the fun of it?

Do you distract from the point just for the fun of it?

You've officially lost this argument. Instead of addressing what I said, you attempt to insult me. We're done.

 

[CJ1145]

Oh, for fuck's sake. Years and years parents preach that teachers need to be an important part of children's upbringing, with values like honesty at the very center of the debate, and now they ***** about a teacher being honest and "demystifying" the fictional figurehead of a commercial (yes, commercial, deal with it) holiday?!
If there is any kind of justice in the world, the teacher will not only NOT get in trouble, but the school will also make a formal statement to the parents, politely telling them to go suck it. God. Damn. D:<

I am thoroughly convinced that calling you a Scrooge will do nothing but send you into a flying rage.

You're such a Scrooge.

Seriously, telling a child there is no Santa Claus is just cruel. Everyone I knew grew up believing in Santa Claus, and in time we all came to realize on our own that he does not exist. It was just a part of growing up. Teachers need to be a good authority figure in kids' lives, but that sort of decision should belong to the parents.

I, for one, will be raising my children believing in Santa Claus. Or, rather, I won't ruin the magic for them. It just adds this sort of wonder to the holiday.

 

[M920CAIN]

Wait, are you telling me there's no Santa?

 

[13thforswarn]

How about someone teach them about Jesus, which is the reason there even is an Xmas.

You're joking, right?

Holidays were celebrated around the Winter Solstice *long* before the Christians decided to steal the day and claim their Savior was born on it. Several other religion have, and have had for a very long time, holidays in this time frame.

Further, if you actually look into the facts, Jesus wasn't actually born in December.

Lastly, keep your religion to yourself. The only person who should be teaching kids about any belief in any deities is their parents. I know that if my kid came home and started telling me their teacher was talking to them about God, I'd be raising some hell.

Ummm, it's called CHRISTmas. I'm well aware of the winter Solstice and other religions that have a holiday during this time frame, however the holiday in question, CHRISTmas, is the celebration of the birth of Christ, not some fat man. Hence, why I mentioned Jesus at all.

The reason why Rome "stole" the day was for convenience. People were used to celebrating a holiday during that time of year, so they made Christmas on that day upon Rome converting to Christianity.

And how can one keep their religion (in this case Christianity) to themselves if you're discussing one of the most important holidays of said religion?

 

[Nergy]

I never accepted Santa as real throughout my entire childhood. I had a much bigger appreciation for my parents knowing that they spent all that money just to see me happy on Christmas. Made Christmas more aboout

I don't know if the teacher should have told children, probably should have left that to the parents. But i think we should probably tell our kids there isn't a Santa Claus. Parents need to be appreciated for all the hard work, goddamnit!

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

I've always felt that the Santa lie is a misguided practice for parents to engage in. It's one thing to have some magic in a kid's life - like, when I found out about Santa (and I was very young because my family was super dysfunctional like that) I was upset - but I was MORE upset that I'd been lied to than the fact that a man didn't come down my chimney every year with presents for me. What, exactly, is wrong with telling children that you get presents at Christmas from your parents who love you? Why the need for a proxy gift giver? It's all very confusing to a child - or it was to me.

Don't get me wrong! I love Christmas and I love Christmas specials and all of that - but I can't help but recognize that there'd be no broken hearted children finding out Santa isn't real if we didn't keep lying to them about his existence.

So what next, will the God lie (how many atheists will tell you there is no proof of his existance) be considered misguided?

I don't think equating God to Santa is very productive.

No one who tells their kids that Santa exists actually believes that what they are saying is true (or, should say a very very high percent of people who tell their kids Santa exists, like 99.999999999999999 I would guess) whereas people who tell their children there is a god, of whatever shape or form, usually believe it themselves. I think that's a key difference - it isn't an outright LIE, it's the sharing of a belief to talk to your kids about your religion. Santa's a lie - totally made up, no question, no philosophical angle, just something utterly made up out of whole cloth.

I should elaborate - too many times on this forum I give an answer and then people get all flame-war on me because I didn't provide a fully fleshed out wall of text dissertation.

I believe in Santa - but I believe in Santa the way my grandmother described it to me: a construction that embodies a spirit of giving that is set up to be an example and an inspiration for others around the holidays to tap into their own giving nature and charity and kindness. He's a symbol, not a person living in a workshop somewhere, not a guy with a bag who comes into your house every year. That made sense to me. That was beautiful to me. That's why I still love all the Christmas stuff and bake cookies for 24 hours straight to get in the spirit after school semester ends and give them to lots and lots of people - to spread that spirit.

However, I am very conflicted about what I will tell my own kids, should I one day have them, which I plan to - because little little kids aren't really good with grasping symbols as symbols and yet I do feel it's wrong to set them up for disappointment - and discredit myself in the process - by telling them an outright lie about something that will become very central to their little beliefs. I do find there is a cruel element in the lying to kids about Santa thing - but it can also be a beautiful lie.

And some kids you just can't lie to for very long - my little sister, for example, when she was 5 absolutely DEMANDED the truth about Santa because she'd heard some older kids talking about how he wasn't real and she just would NOT allow my mother to dodge the question. The episode ended with my mother breaking down into hysterical tears under the merciless interrogation of a toddler bent on knowing. Not healthy, can't possibly be healthy - for anyone. So... inevitably I question why we's put ourselves in that situation when as much bad as good can come out of it - and the answer I usually get is "it's tradition" which is not satisfactory for me.

Meanwhile, Christmas can totally suck when one or both of your parents goes off the deep end and you end up with no Santa and psychotic parents all in the same awful day. Been there done that, which is how I found out there was no Santa.

And then you have my friend who has two kids who can't afford to live and had to move back in with mom and dad and she's had a terrible time trying to maintain the illusion when finances simply don't permit it - I ended up being her kid's santa last year, just to give them 1 more year of believing, but if there hadn't been a lie in the first place maybe none of that suffering or potential suffering would have to be.

So there's really a lot more to the "There is a Santa" or "There's no such thing as Santa" question.

 

[Nergy]

How about someone teach them about Jesus, which is the reason there even is an Xmas.

You're joking, right?

Holidays were celebrated around the Winter Solstice *long* before the Christians decided to steal the day and claim their Savior was born on it. Several other religion have, and have had for a very long time, holidays in this time frame.

Further, if you actually look into the facts, Jesus wasn't actually born in December.

Lastly, keep your religion to yourself. The only person who should be teaching kids about any belief in any deities is their parents. I know that if my kid came home and started telling me their teacher was talking to them about God, I'd be raising some hell.

Ummm, it's called CHRISTmas. I'm well aware of the winter Solstice and other religions that have a holiday during this time frame, however the holiday in question, CHRISTmas, is the celebration of the birth of Christ, not some fat man. Hence, why I mentioned Jesus at all.

The reason why Rome "stole" the day was for convenience. People were used to celebrating a holiday during that time of year, so they made Christmas on that day upon Rome converting to Christianity.

And how can one keep their religion (in this case Christianity) to themselves if you're discussing one of the most important holidays of said religion?

Because i'm one of those pesky smartypants types, i hope you don't mine correcting you on a few things.

1. The Romans replaced the pagan holiday with Christmas to forcefully phase out the pagan religion, it wasn't because people were "used to celebrating" the pagan holiday.

2. The Bible doesn't actually specify what Jesus' birthday is, it's never mentioned. Especially not as specifically as December 25th. In fact it doesn't even specify what part of the year it happened.

Sorry, i'm a stickler for details.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

OT: She shouldn't be made to tell the kids she was wrong, because that would require her to lie to them. However, she does owe the parents an apology. It wasn't her place, but really nothing that they need to get too worked up over. As many have said, these kids are right at that age anyway.

No, I mean if the parents are so worked up then they should tell them she was wrong. I don't think she needs to apologise, she was just doing her job by teaching them about the North Pole and giving them factual information. It's a minor issue at the most and she just needs to know not to do it again.

 

[Samus Aran but a man]

I think it's a good thing. Christmas is a time for giving; so telling the kids that it was their parents, not some imaginary fat dude, will help encourage the spirit.

 

[red the fister]

Oh, for fuck's sake. Years and years parents preach that teachers need to be an important part of children's upbringing, with values like honesty at the very center of the debate, and now they ***** about a teacher being honest and "demystifying" the fictional figurehead of a commercial (yes, commercial, deal with it) holiday?!
If there is any kind of justice in the world, the teacher will not only NOT get in trouble, but the school will also make a formal statement to the parents, politely telling them to go suck it. God. Damn. D:<

If an 8 year old kid asks the teacher to explain sex, should the teacher "be honest" and do it or should the teacher refuse to discuss the subject?



The latter is what should have happened here. Santa is like religion, You could claim religious beliefs are lies too because they lack proof but then you miss the point of religion.

Let's see... is sex considered inappropriate for kids of that age? How about... yes.

Is the truth about Santa inappropriate at any age? Let's see... no.

Ok then. If a kid asked the teacher "Is there a God". What would the teacher do? Would he "be honest" and say that there is no scientific proof of a God or would he refuse to discuss it?

Let's see... is the government allowed to have an official position on God? No.

Is the government allowed to have a position on Santa Claus? Yes

Do the parents actually believe in Santa Claus? No
Might the parents actually believe in God? Yes.

This is not hard.

1) I wasn't aware the government had a position on Santa. What is the governments position on Santa?

2) I never said God and Santa were identical just that the belief is similar and not to be discussed in schools.

1) Maybe if you stopped to think a bit you might realize obvious things about the first amendment and what teachers are allowed to say given that they're employed by the government. But that would require thinking instead of reactionary BS.

2) Yes, you said they're similar and not to be discussed on school based on nothing solid, except a stupid comparison of concepts that are quite different legally(due to the 1st Amendment) and culturally.

Oh I see.

Well, let's look at your line of reasoning. It is also not illegal (according to the 1st Amendment) to answer those sex questions either. So would you be ok with the teacher telling the class all about sex because being honest is more important than the desires of parents?

It's not about legal or illegal. Religion is not discussed in schools because it is outside the scope of school as is a belief or non belief in Santa.

It's outside of the scope for a reason that doesn't apply to Santa at all. Further the teachers do not just restrict themselves to what is inside the scope of the school. The reason they restrict themselves from certain things is not JUST because they're outside the scope of the school.

Like Santa, it's outside the scope of school. Santa is for parents to talk to their kids about. Legal, illegal, neither have any bearing on this topic.

Why are you repeating 'outside the scope of the school' junk when I already addressed it?

Surely you can agree that there are some things that should be left to parents to teach. Well, IMO this is one of those things. You don't want to tell your kid that Santa is real, fine but then wouldn't you be upset if the teacher told them the opposite?

How about no, this is not one of those things. It lacks enough importance to complain about.

It's apparently important enough for you to be here arguing about.

So you're resorting to pretending you lack the intelligence to make anything but childish and stupid replies? "Hur dur, look you're replying it's important!"

Wow, this post advanced the conversation.

If it's not important then why are you putting up such an argument?

If you're not playing stupid, why are you ignoring the blatant fact that not everything someone does with their time is that important? Why are you playing a stupid game of distraction by pretending it matters?

I don't argue about things that I don't think are important. I just figured most people are like that too. Do you just argue for the fun of it?

Do you distract from the point just for the fun of it?

You've officially lost this argument. Instead of addressing what I said, you attempt to insult me. We're done.

Lolwut? Let's see... you think you can just decide that? Well wow, I didn't realize I was talking to the King of the Internet. Or wait maybe I'm just talking to someone pathetic enough they think they can just declare victory when someone points out that they're distracting from the issue by asking irrelevant questions.

I mean, how stupid is it to get all whiny over the fact I didn't address your question, when your question had jack shit to do with the argument? "Waaaah, you won't fall for my red herring fallacy, u so mean u lose"

now, i'm not going to go back and find the first insult but when debate devolves into insults the discussion is over, the initial insulter accepting the fact that their logic has failed, thusly, 'f you sling the shit you've already quit.

 

[Stew Coard]

I'm surprised to see santa getting so much hate here. This kind of issue probably should be tackled by the parents, and the teacher would have been wiser to leave well enough alone.

 

[emeraldrafael]

I like how the pcitures caption ofr this is santa claus in front of a tree and it says "Santa Claus waves during the 91st annual city Christmas tree lighting ceremony at the Daley Plaza in Chicago on Friday, Nov. 26, 2004" without any quotes around Santa Claus.

OT: I think this is ridiculous. Granted, if I was a teacher and a student said that, i'd prbably just say under my breath whatever and deflect the comment. But to punish a teacher for it is stupid (if she is punished for it).

I dont get protecting your kids from the "there is no santa" anymore. I think I found out when I was about eight when I walekd downstairs and saw my mom putting presents under the tree. If anything, you'd think fox news would be all over this and make it into a "bringing christ back to christmas" though.

 

[jpoon]

Good for the teacher, they're gonna learn that eventually so meh.

 

[red the fister]

How about someone teach them about Jesus, which is the reason there even is an Xmas.

You're joking, right?

Holidays were celebrated around the Winter Solstice *long* before the Christians decided to steal the day and claim their Savior was born on it. Several other religion have, and have had for a very long time, holidays in this time frame.

Further, if you actually look into the facts, Jesus wasn't actually born in December.

Lastly, keep your religion to yourself. The only person who should be teaching kids about any belief in any deities is their parents. I know that if my kid came home and started telling me their teacher was talking to them about God, I'd be raising some hell.

Ummm, it's called CHRISTmas. I'm well aware of the winter Solstice and other religions that have a holiday during this time frame, however the holiday in question, CHRISTmas, is the celebration of the birth of Christ, not some fat man. Hence, why I mentioned Jesus at all.

The reason why Rome "stole" the day was for convenience. People were used to celebrating a holiday during that time of year, so they made Christmas on that day upon Rome converting to Christianity.

And how can one keep their religion (in this case Christianity) to themselves if you're discussing one of the most important holidays of said religion?

Because i'm one of those pesky smartypants types, i hope you don't mine correcting you on a few things.

1. The Romans replaced the pagan holiday with Christmas to forcefully phase out the pagan religion, it wasn't because people were "used to celebrating" the pagan holiday.

2. The Bible doesn't actually specify what Jesus' birthday is, it's never mentioned. Especially not as specifically as December 25th. In fact it doesn't even specify what part of the year it happened.

Sorry, i'm a stickler for details.

hi, i'm a Heathen (i chose to not use pagan because i've never worked on a farm) and i'm also a smarty-pants ;-)

Thanksgiving is celebrated on an arbitrary day selected but the government rather than the very calender-day of it's anniversary.
same deal with the celebration of christs birth. guy was probably born in the spring.

my point being: a celebration does not have to coincide with the anniversary of the event being celebrated. just ask anyone born on february 29th

captcha: mariskin Cole sounds like a good name for my next d&d character