Nintendo Failures seem exaggerated

[nuttshell]

As soon as I heard that EA isn't going to make any more games for the Wii U, I got interested. That's really all I gotta say. EA isn't making games for something = that something is going to be good.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

No, they sold the NES, the SNES, the N64, and the Gamecube at a profit.

Already been addressed.

Nintendo's consoles being underpowered only started with the Wii.

Of course, they did other things before that. Like stick to expensive carts when disc media was cheaper, or minidiscs that spin backwards because reasons....

Except even then, the Gamecube was more powerful than the PS2, and the N64 was on par with the PSX.

In power yes. But the software was better on the PS consoles. You could put more game on a PSX Disc than an N64 cartridge. You could also have more discs to have even more game thanks to the memory card. FF7 on 9-13 cartridges would be stupid.

And the GC disks held less than the PS2 disks. Had memory cards but still, multiple disks are a bother and if you can't put that much onto a disk, you can't utilize he consoles power to its fullest. When you refer to a consoles "power" that's one thing, but looking at all aspects of consoles side by side and there's a reason why GC games didn't run as powerfully as PS2/Xbox games.

And to your earlier post/point on how Nintendo has always made a profit on hardware. You are aware that Nintendo's hardware per generation has sold millions less with every generation barring the Wii right?
NES:61 million
SNES:49 million
N64: 32 million
GC:21 million

The Wii U's sales numbers actually make a lot of sense considering the hardware decline of Nintendo's home console sales barring the Wii. If Nintendo made hardware profits off of every console they made (which they didn't), they'd be in a lot of trouble anyways. The profits per console aren't astronomically huge anyways compared to software sales. Keep in mind that most of Nintendo's consoles were made in the days were there was no such thing as a standard price for software, so game went for anything from $40-$100, so it's hard to eyeball Nintendo's software profits as some random schmuck on the internet. Too much misinformation.

Kinda like how some people to this day think Nintendo owns Sega because reasons.

 

[KazeAizen]

How will they bounce back? I don't see how they can after the Wii U. It will ruin their brand name.

Same way they bounced back after the Virtual Boy, which while the Wii U is doing bad, the Virtual Boy is still known as one of the biggest gaming blunders in the history of the gaming industry. It's always possible for them to be unable to bounce back, but that's only if they don't fix anything at all, and it seems at least they are trying now.

Nintendo honestly needed this humility to bring them back to reality, because they probably felt on top of the world with both the Wii and DS, just like how Sony thought they were pretty much invincible after the PS1 and PS2's success. Eventually though reality comes crashing down on you when you think that way. It happened big time with Sony when it came to the PS3, and it's happened with Nintendo for both the 3DS from when it launched and it's happening to Nintendo with the Wii U right now. It's also similar with what happened with the N64 because Nintendo was riding on the SNES' success and made some pretty big mistakes when it came to the design of it and how development on the console would go. In the end that completely bit them in the butt as it just helped Sony out more. For another parallel, Sony made the same sorta mistakes when it came to the PS3, looking at you Cell architecture, and it just helped the Xbox 360 more when it came to how multiplatform games would perform better on the 360 than the PS3.

Both companies learned after that though, with Nintendo's GameCube making many right choices (ignoring the fact that the PS2 eclipsed it, but that was the case for many things), and now with the PS4 it seems that Sony learned from it's mistakes it made with the PS3. Now if only Sony would learn to stop using proprietary memory cards that cost too much and perhaps the Vita would do at least a little better.

I follow Nintendo's twitter and honestly they do seem to learning things. I mean every other day I'm seeing games they are putting on the eshop. GBA games, old school nostalgia trip games that haven't seen the light of day in years. Several on the Wii U. Even reaching out to indies which that can only be a long term strategy. If we've learned nothing about Nintendo over the years we can at least take away this. They are one of the most resilient suns of guns in the industry. In terms of football I like to view them in this light. Its the end of the second quarter and they are down by 14-21. Hard to win but not impossible. They don't need their hail marry pass just yet. When and if they have to use it though I'm sure we'll know it when we see it.

 

[Saltyk]

To be fair, several Nintendo consoles were rather powerful. The SNES was superior to the Genesis. The N64 was a very powerful system as well.

We're also not talking an era where they were trying to sell at a profit.

Valid point. Actually, this is odd to look back on Nintendo's past. They usually waited to enter the market and did so with more impressive hardware than their competition. This generation they entered it a year earlier then their competition and with weaker hardware.

I will admit that if the Wii U was cheaper, it would be more appealing. But, as I said earlier, I'm not willing to pay $300 for the few games that do interest me. Not sure how much I would be willing, but $300 is too much.

I was thinking more same price point but more power, since that's one of the things that seems to have driven off the third party devs and limited the reason to buy one.

But a cheaper one might work, too.

I was thinking of how they could help the Wii U. No sense looking back and saying if they could go back in time. The Wii U is here.

Another thing would be better advertising. And getting some games and actively courting third party support. Sort of like Sony did with Indie studios. As you said, though, the weaker system is probably not going to make too many third party devs want to make cross platform games for the system. But trying to get some exclusives that take advantage of the tablet controller would be wise.

 

[VG_Addict]

No, they sold the NES, the SNES, the N64, and the Gamecube at a profit.

Already been addressed.

Nintendo's consoles being underpowered only started with the Wii.

Of course, they did other things before that. Like stick to expensive carts when disc media was cheaper, or minidiscs that spin backwards because reasons....

Except even then, the Gamecube was more powerful than the PS2, and the N64 was on par with the PSX.

In power yes. But the software was better on the PS consoles. You could put more game on a PSX Disc than an N64 cartridge. You could also have more discs to have even more game thanks to the memory card. FF7 on 9-13 cartridges would be stupid.

And the GC disks held less than the PS2 disks. Had memory cards but still, multiple disks are a bother and if you can't put that much onto a disk, you can't utilize he consoles power to its fullest. When you refer to a consoles "power" that's one thing, but looking at all aspects of consoles side by side and there's a reason why GC games didn't run as powerfully as PS2/Xbox games.

And to your earlier post/point on how Nintendo has always made a profit on hardware. You are aware that Nintendo's hardware per generation has sold millions less with every generation barring the Wii right?
NES:61 million
SNES:49 million
N64: 32 million
GC:21 million

What does that have to do with it? They still made money on those consoles, even if they didn't sell the most of their generations.

 

[gamernerdtg2]

Some very good replies to this thread. For me, Nintendo made its presence known in the arcades first, then on consoles. The fact that the NES was able to bring Super Mario Brothers, Excitebike, Hogan's Alley, and Castlevania into my home, virtually unchanged, was a major deal. Mike Tyson's Punch out, Zelda, Kid Icarus, Metroid, Ninja Gaiden, Bionic Commando, RC Pro-Am, and several other games were really solid. It was a different time in the 80's, more 3rd party support, more risk.

The SNES was everything that people expected it to be. There weren't as many games for it that did as well, but it was a great system.

I had an N64 and Gamecube for a time, but it was after those consoles had debuted. I wasn't that impressed with them, except for the franchise games like Ocinara, and Metroid Prime. I never finished either of those games, and I stopped playing the Mario games after spending time with Super Mario 64.

The Wii was definitely an exciting idea, but I've never owned one. Nintendo still has me for a fan, but the 3rd party diversity and originality outside of their "go-to" franchises that produced games like F-Zero seems missing from this modern Nintendo era.

The most frustrating thing is that they seem to be holding back. I thought that the PS1 was crap until the PS2 came along. The PS2 was what the Gamecube should have been. To be honest, when I think of console gaming, Nintendo really defined it. The PS1 games really felt like PC games...anyways, I think Nintendo is holding back for some reason,and it annoyed the fans. They lost "steam" after the SNES in my opinion...mind you, I was around to experience the transition from Atari to Nintendo. It was a big deal. There's a huge outcry when they do poorly because we all know that Nintendo can do better!

 

[bluegate]

The PS1 games really felt like PC games...anyways,

Here is an interesting statement that I haven't come across often. What made them feel like PC games, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[gamernerdtg2]

The PS1 games really felt like PC games...anyways,

Here is an interesting statement that I haven't come across often. What made them feel like PC games, if you don't mind me asking?

PC games often feel like your character is stuck to the center of the screen in a 3D world, and they are better played with a keyboard and mouse. Console games are way more varied in terms of the game genre, and they work better with a controller.

I know that sounds narrow, but I see PC gaming as a thing unto itself, whereas console gaming was designed to be in people's living rooms from day one. The PS1 kind of melded PC and console gaming onto one system, and the PS2 seemed like the perfect balance to me.

So, Dark Souls - PC game. Dragon's Dogma - console game. Anything side scrolling is a console game (in my mind). Diablo III is a PC game, but it feels like a console game to me. Skyrim is 100% a PC game, especially with the option to modify the gameplay...the modification thing was actually happening on the NES with the Game Genie, but I never got into it because you couldn't modify arcade games. I see console gaming as related to arcade gaming.

I do realize that PC gaming is very broad these days, I think I'm talking about the way these games tend to feel when you play them...the actual gameplay.

 

[Roxas1359]

I follow Nintendo's twitter and honestly they do seem to learning things. I mean every other day I'm seeing games they are putting on the eshop. GBA games, old school nostalgia trip games that haven't seen the light of day in years. Several on the Wii U. Even reaching out to indies which that can only be a long term strategy. If we've learned nothing about Nintendo over the years we can at least take away this. They are one of the most resilient suns of guns in the industry. In terms of football I like to view them in this light. Its the end of the second quarter and they are down by 14-21. Hard to win but not impossible. They don't need their hail marry pass just yet. When and if they have to use it though I'm sure we'll know it when we see it.

GBA games on the eShop? I don't know what country you live in, but I was just on the 3DS eShop and there aren't any GBA games that's for sure. The last time there were GBA games on the eShop were from the Ambassador Program back when no one was buying the 3DS (I have Metroid Fusion, Minish Cap, and Amazing Mirror on my 3DS). Which begs the question, why don't they release more GBA games on the eShop, or even release the ones that were in the Ambassador program for like $5 or something because there are a load of people who would want to play Minish Cap or Fusion on the 3DS, especially since those games have already been coded for the 3DS already. Then on the Wii U front, why aren't there any GameCube titles on the eShop, I mean the Wii U technically can play GameCube games since Nintendo's disc drives are only slightly modified, but the Wii U's OS locks out the ability to read the discs (also there isn't a slot to plug in the controllers). I mean if someone can hack the Wii U to actually play those games just fine then it shouldn't be a problem for Nintendo at all.

And really in times like this they really should be releasing their hail marry, because they need more Wii U sales in general. Many people were saying that 3D World was gonna be a killer app, but it really didn't drive sales figures up as much as they hoped. Not to mention that after Tropical Freeze releases this Friday, the next big game coming out on the Wii U by Nintendo is all the way in May (Mario Kart 8), and that's a huge gap to leave. Finally, I've seen Nintendo constantly say how they need to increase advertising, but I've not seen it at all. The Tropical Freeze commerical has only played 3 times in my area, and I leave my TV on children's network's like Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon pretty much all day for white noise. The Tropical Freeze commercial has only played on Cartoon Network at the end of the day which isn't that good because I'm seeing people constantly say that Nintendo only needs to do a good marketing campaign to get people to know how the Wii U is. If that were the case then Nintendo needs to fire their main advertising person because they are definitely not doing a good job. *glares at Cammie Dunaway*

The Wii U can easily bounce back, but it honestly seems like Nintendo isn't even trying in the slightest when it comes to advertising at all. I don't know how well the advertising is in Japan, but I also know that Wii U ads are non-existent in Europe pretty much. It's just really frustrating really because everyone knows Nintendo can do better, especially with advertising because the Wii Would Like to Play ads were great.

 

[kilenem]

Because barring the Wii U, Nintendo consistently makes a profit on hardware.

We debunked that one a couple times for you, up to and including sources.

I believe that Nintendo makes 60% of its profits on hardware.

[citation needed]

To be fair, they made massive profits off the Wii. Though, I'm not one to suggest that those profits should be seen as an get out of jail free card for the current debacle with the Wii U.

Of course, if 60% of their profits DID come from the hardware sales, that would actually be unhealthy. Other console developers always sold the console at a loss and tried to make it up in software. If 60% of Nintendo profits came from hardware, that would suggest that software sales were very poor. Even with the profitability of the Wii.

Have any companies made a profit on there system selling them at a loss.

 

[Roxas1359]

Have any companies made a profit on there system selling them at a loss.

Both the PS1 and the PS2 did, especially the PS2 seeing as it was the most successful selling console of all time (still is as well). It can work if priced correctly. The reason why the PS3 burnt through the money was because the production for the systems cost way too much to be stable, and Ken Kutaragi lied to the investors on the cost of production. The $500 30 GB ones actually cost about $900 to make, while the 60 GB models cost over $1000 to make and were only sold for $600. This resulted in Ken's eventually ousting from the company in a similar way that caused Gunpei Yokoi to leave Nintendo. Eventually Sony broke even and started to profit on the PS3 in I believe 2010, but they had already burned through the money the PS2 made them.

The Wii U is currently burning through the money that the Wii made Nintendo because they are selling the Wii U at a loss because the parts alone almost make the entire price of the Wii U, with assembly, packaging, and shipping not being included. It's why some people say that the GamePad should be dropped because it raises the cost of the console part wise by about $100, similarly to how the Kinect raises the Xbox One's price. Generally Nintendo has the production cost of their consoles be extremely cheaper than that of their prices they set for it. For example, the GameBoy Micro, while not really the most successful handheld thanks to the DS, cost around $44 to produce and they sold them for $100. The GameCube was also rumored to cost only around $20 to produce and even when selling them for $99 still got in profits. The Wii U on the other hand has parts that cost about $228 and doesn't include the manufacturing, distribution, etc for it.

 

[kilenem]

The reason why the PS3 burnt through the money was because the production for the systems cost way too much to be stable, and Ken Kutaragi lied to the investors on the cost of production. The $500 30 GB ones actually cost about $900

Holly crap 900 to make. I thought the 360 was bad at 715. I assumed the PS2was sold at a profit since it was the weakest of its generation.

 

[Roxas1359]

Holly crap 900 to make. I thought the 360 was bad at 715. I assumed the PS2was sold at a profit since it was the weakest of its generation.

Yeah, and it definitely wouldn't have passed through Sony's board if Ken told the board the truth, so he lied to them. It's why after Ken was gone the PS3 had things removed to lower the price. Generally as well consoles are only sold at a loss in the beginning, but later on the tech that goes into them becomes cheaper to produce over time, hence price drops over time.

As for the PS2, remember it had a built in DVD player from the start, at a time in which DVD players were about as expensive as Bluray players were at launch. Sony had to also pay licensing fees for both the ability to play music and the ability to play movies now. It was the PS2 that actually got Japan to start using DVD players because the PS2 was the cheapest DVD player for Japan at it's launch and was marketed as such and it was extremely successful because of it. While no official numbers have been released, it was rumored that the PS2 once everything was done cost about $488 to make (that includes the licensing fees) and was sold for $299 at launch. Over time the tech became cheaper to produce since Sony was able to get the DVD to become standardized worldwide and the fact that Sony had the PS1 games, memory cards, and controllers work on the system effectively pushed it more. PS2 still has the largest console library to date, about 3780 games total and when combined with PS1 games (which totaled 2418) the PS2 has effectively a total of 6198 games. Sony tried to pull the same magic twice with the PS3 when trying to use it to popularize Blurays, but they've not been as successful since DVDs are still so widely used.

Nintendo technically can do what Sony couldn't and they could have made the Wii U backwards compatible with GameCube games as well, because the Wii U Optical Drive is just a slightly modified Wii Optical Drive, and the Wii Optical Drive was a modified GameCube Optical Drive. There are two reasons why the Wii U can't play the GameCube games, and those are that the Wii U's OS locks out the ability to read mini-discs like what the GameCube has, and the second is because there is no slot for the controllers. Nintendo could have an easier time than Sony did because they only modify their older tech for the newer ones. I mean someone is hacking the Wii U to be able to play GameCube games and if one programmer can do that then I'm pretty sure Nintendo could easily do it. Of course I think Nintendo might be wanting to do what Sony does with PS2 games on the PS3 and make something like GameCube classics or something.

 

[Lightknight]

Agreed. But I think Gen 8 has a challenge that others really didn't face. I'm not seeing a huge difference in the quality of visuals I did going from NES to SNES, to N64 and really being blown away by Mario jumping into a painting, to the first time I saw Ratchet and Clank on a PS2, to watching a dead guy float in space in Quake 4... and now... this. It's nice, but nothing has really knocked my sox off. I'm playing Metro Last Light and Bioshock Infinity on a PS3 and they look acceptable.

Every generation has new challenges. We really have reached a time where graphics are "good enough" for most people to make games playable today. I played Bioshock 1 back in 2011 and you know what? It was still playable. So yes, graphics already reach beauty in the previous generation and successfully crossed the uncanny valley in some games or got darn close to it.

What we're going to see in this generation is a fine tuning of those graphics and hopefully some advancements in physics and AI. An overhaul of physics in games will actually do more for graphics than more polygons at this point.

Even then, what games have you played that are 8th gen? Killzone is stunning at points and is an excellent example of what this console generation has to start with. There's an issue with object collision in the game but it's otherwise prettier than almost anything we had in the ps3 generation and it's a starting entry. Do you remember the 7th gen console's starting games?

John Woo Presents Stranglehold [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vuqyFMu0Sg]. That Youtube link is Stranglehold at it's best. Reviews at the time called the environment graphics great but said that character models took a hit because of the destructable environment. But come on, it's all ugly and the environments have so much copy/paste of object modles that it's just silly (especially when you look at columns that are missing tiles in the same place). It looks closer to a PS2 game than it does to modern PS3 games. I mean, have you compared Call of Duty 2 (a 360 title) with Call of Duty:Ghosts' 360 version? It's a different world. Most of the games being made for the 8th generation are also being made for the old consoles. This means that it's the same game engine under the hood but with the graphics turned up. Games specifically made for the next gen consoles are the ones who should show the advantage early with the others catching up as the 7th gen gets phased out. This is the same as it was with the 7th generation with the games made for both systems too (though that John Woo game was only on 7th gen consoles).

My prediction: Next holiday season, PS4 and Wii U sales will be comparable to each other, but lower than rates of sale of the Wii U and PS3 in the same period.

What in the world gives you that idea? The WiiU is doing almost exactly the same as it did this time last year and the XBO is coming in at around 2x its sales with the PS4 more than doubling the XBO sales without even having launched in Japan yet (Friday of next week is the launch date, I think). This is an incredibly unlikely prediction unless you have some sort of massive game changer in mind (which I'm happy to hear).

My prediction is that if Microsoft makes no significant change then next year will show both the WiiU at a much lower level with the XBO in second place but not close to the ps4. That's the way things look now. Console sellers (games that greatly increase the sales of the system) are often new IPs altogether and not subsequent installations of old IPs. Nintendo is a good example of this with their existing IPs selling well while their overall console market share dwindled unitl the Wii generation which opened new IPs and a new gaming mechanic that the new IPs were based on. Donkey Kong and {insert super or another prefix hereif relevant} Mario {insert rest of the name here} games are fun and if you own a WiiU you WILL get them. But people who haven't already gotten the console aren't necessarily going to run out and get a WiiU just because known Nintendo IPs are released. This really is just one publisher (albeit huge and possibly the best one) carrying a whole console. As such, they need to put up or shut up.

The Xbox one? Best marketing of the 3, but I'm not sure who will be buying it.

The XBO is selling significantly better than the WiiU was at this point. They have dumped the most money into marketing but I think our generation is a little more ad blind to their methods than others have been in decades past. Looke at how much they throw into Win8, for example.

They also have a VERY uphill battle of resolving the PR shitstorm they created in the last E3. So, that they're still doing better than Nintendo is good for them, especially when they're so close to the break even point on their console sales.

Nintendo, however, is taking hundreds in losses per console and is doing terribly. They're in the same spot that the PS3 was in for a while but with none of the redeeming qualities that eventually saved the PS3. You may like your WiiU, and that's great, but it simply isn't picking up and there's nothing more they can really do if they're going to keep the gamepad and won't release new IPs.

 

[gorfias]

We really have reached a time where graphics are "good enough" for most people to make games playable today. I played Bioshock 1 back in 2011 and you know what? It was still playable. So yes, graphics already reach beauty in the previous generation and successfully crossed the uncanny valley in some games or got darn close to it.

What we're going to see in this generation is a fine tuning of those graphics and hopefully some advancements in physics and AI. An overhaul of physics in games will actually do more for graphics than more polygons at this point.

Good selling points. I've got a buddy asking me why he should ever upgrade from his PS3. Will graphics improve enough for it to matter. I think the phyics, better frame rates, an over-all smoother experience will matter.

what games have you played that are 8th gen?

I don't think "Outlast" counts. Assassin's Creed 4 likely does. I think I over did it showing my boy the difference. I showed him it compared to AC3 on a PS3. I think AC4 for PS3 probably took a giant leap forward over AC3. It did look horrible by comparison.

Killzone is stunning

I know I have to get that ASAP. Right now, I have more games than money or time. I'm blown away by what I got for PS+. $50 for a year and I've already got about $200 in games. I wonder how often they update the free games? If it's monthly, I'm going to need more storage.

Do you remember the 7th gen console's starting games?

I do. Your Stranglehold clip is terrific! But nowhere near, say, Metro Last Light on the same console. A couple of my first 360 games:

Burnout Revenge. Also for the original Xbox, the environments look like they're made out of modeling clay.
Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. To imagine, Skyrim is the same generation
And Call of Duty 2. Not MW2. COD 2.

COD 2 did feel like a light year from what I was playing on the original Xbox. But then, Doom 3 looked pretty good on that old system.

They also have a VERY uphill battle of resolving the PR shitstorm they created in the last E3. So, that they're still doing better than Nintendo is good for them, especially when they're so close to the break even point on their console sales.

Nintendo, however, is taking hundreds in losses per console and is doing terribly. They're in the same spot that the PS3 was in for a while but with none of the redeeming qualities that eventually saved the PS3. You may like your WiiU, and that's great, but it simply isn't picking up and there's nothing more they can really do if they're going to keep the gamepad and won't release new IPs.

Good analogy comparing it to early PS3, which I thought a waste as did many friends. We all went on to buy one. I got two, though, mostly due to the Bluray. If I was (back then) going to spend $200 on a player anyway, made sense to throw in another few bucks to get the PS3 for seperate rooms. Nintendo doesn't have that going for them.

I've heard Donkey Kong is out, and it is only good for someone that wants to revisit mid-1990 games that are only shinier now. That isn't enough to be a system seller.

Is it fair to write that the Wii won last gen in terms of console sales? As those Wii's break, will people replace them with a Wii U or something else (The Xbox One, for one thing, does seem to be the one with the gimicks people might love).

 

[Roxas1359]

The WiiU is doing almost exactly the same as it did this time last year and the XBO is coming in at around 2x its sales with the PS4 more than doubling the XBO sales without even having launched in Japan yet (Friday of next week is the launch date, I think). This is an incredibly unlikely prediction unless you have some sort of massive game changer in mind (which I'm happy to hear).

Console launches in Japan this Saturday actually. Japan's government has it set up that new video game consoles must launch on the weekends (Friday-Sunday) so that kids won't skip school and so that the Akihibara district is able to do all their work correctly since it's the main tech center for Tokyo and a console launch would cause delays in other businesses. So they have it that all the major companies launch it on a Saturday so as to not make more of a mess of the district, and generally because console launches are usually first in the Akihibara district before other stores, unless they were Mom and Pop stores.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Why is everyone talking about the Wii and Wii U and no one about the DS and 3DS? I'll remember the Wii consoles for rhythmic dance titles and guitar-hero type games for the casual gamer, while DS at least had a bunch of thoughtful titles which catered for experienced and serious gamers.

 

[kilenem]

Why is everyone talking about the Wii and Wii U and no one about the DS and 3DS? I'll remember the Wii consoles for rhythmic dance titles and guitar-hero type games for the casual gamer, while DS at least had a bunch of thoughtful titles which catered for experienced and serious gamers.

That was all consoles for rhythmic and Dance titles. Dance central was one of the best Kinect games.

 

[VG_Addict]

How badly will Tropical Freeze's sales (in Japan) be eclipsed by the PS4's launch? It's already come out for Japan, but I would imagine a lot of people there are saving up for the PS4.