No, it isn't OK.

[101flyboy]

"There should be no tolerance for the intolerant."

Exactly. That basically sums it up.

Intolerance shouldn't be rewarded with tolerance.

 

[Zukhramm]

Is it okay? Maybe not but it must certainly be allowed. Yes, people must be allowed to be racist, people must be allowed to have opinions that others think are wrong. It is and always should be allowed to be wrong.

 

[Pecoros7]

Many people find a source of virtue in their belief in God, but atheists also seem to have a sense of absolute right and wrong even if they tend to disagree about the details of it.

I'd argue that neither is true, since even within religious doctrine absolute thinking is not inherent. So not only does this read to me as false equivalency, but based on the faulty premise of balancing one side to standards that do not exist on the other.

I'm sorry that wasn't clear. I mean to say that of people who hold absolute standards of virtue, some derive those standards from religion and others do not. Some people hold absolute standards which do not stem from any religion at all. I do not mean to imply that religion inherently imposes an absolute standard. I realize that many people, religious or not, see morality as something more ambiguous and flexible.

If a person says a thing is always wrong, for some that belief stems from a religious teaching and for others it comes from humanism or intuition or some other source entirely. I am interested in where those standards come from.

 

[COMaestro]

I will agree that people are not born racist. However, I believe that we are born to fear the other, that which is different than ourselves. This seems to occur in different degrees in individuals. Take one young child and introduce him/her to a person they've never met before and they'll walk right up and and hug the person. A different child may hide behind his/her mother's leg. Why? The person is unknown and the child is afraid.

Same thing that started racism/sexism/etc: that person looks/acts/sounds different than me. That difference becomes fear of this other, and when we are afraid, we often become angry. And to continue down the Star Wars quote, the anger leads to hatred. Is it right to hate the other? I don't think so, especially when there is usually no reason to do so, other than that person is differnt. That is not a good reason, it's just pointless, mindless fear/hate.

People do become indoctrinated to these beliefs, and a person can break free of this if they want to. Some people don't want to put in the effort. Others never really have the opportunity. If you are surrounded by people who look/believe/act like you do and never really encounter the other, then you have nothing to base a change of your opinions on. It's only by meeting people of other races/beliefs/etc that you can then change your opinions of them. Saying people should just "try harder" to overcome opinions they have had all their lives when they've never been given a reason to is ridiculous.

People should be allowed to think whatever they want. It is only when a person's actions threaten or endanger another human being that a line needs to be drawn. Admittedly this can even include voicing opinions on the matter, because negative words can bring about bad self-image or shame about a person's own race/beliefs/etc, harming them mentally and emotionally. In an ideal world, everyone would keep negative thoughs about other people to themselves, but isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

However, I think it is stupid to say anyone's opinion regarding their feelings for another group is "wrong". You may disagree, but how can you be sure you aren't wrong instead? Earlier in the thread someone mentioned facts and scientific theories that can disprove racial/sexual inequality, but just a couple hundred years ago "science" proved that Native Americans were inferior to the white man due to the shape of their skulls, leaving less room for brain matter or some crap like that. You can't accept what science says as the end all be all truth, because new discoveries keep being made. Maybe next year they'll prove women are superior to men in all ways through some new study, which will then be reversed in twenty years because of some overlooked factor. There's no way to tell. Our best bet is to just treat everyone equally no matter their race, sex, beliefs or whatever. We are all human after all.

 

[linkvegeta]

This has bee argued so much over the years, but the first thing i would like to say is this is the internet and you are going to hear some nasty stuff and there is nothing you can do about it, the second is it is okay as long as it if for a half decent reason, i like black people but i hate the gangster rap crap, a black person is a nice suit is just fine and i have no problem with them but when i see a black person being gangster i have a huge urge to slug them one, reason being is they are causing a downfall of culture and there is so much violence and hate and other crap i dont want to think about it just upsets me. well whatever thats just my opinion.

 

[Spoonius]

So, I'm pretty new here, hello everyone, I'm sure you've seen me around. Anyway, I was checking out OTD forum last night, and some guy said something like I don't like black people, am I right? I don't like ____________ group, I don't recall who it was. And he said that was a legitimate opinion to have, and that it's just a preference. Others agreed with him. And I've noticed people making excuses for this type of behavior.

Well, no. It isn't OK to racist, homophobic, sexist etc. It isn't OK to dislike black people for their race, it isn't OK to be against homosexuality, and it isn't OK to think women are lesser beings than men, think all other religious options are beneath your chosen belief, and we can go on from there. It is NOT OK. Yes, people are entitled to their opinions. That doesn't make them right, they're still wrong, but it's that persons' choice to be wrong. And remember, people don't choose to be black/gay/women etc. A lot of people don't really "choose" their religious beliefs either, they are indoctrinated into them. However, bigoted beliefs against these groups is most certainly a choice.

I get tired when people make defense of such actions. People especially do it when it comes to sexuality/gender related things. Like somehow religion/"ick" factor/society/whatever bullshit they can think of makes is reasonable to be a bigot against these things. Well, someone needs to say it loud and clear. It isn't. And thinking it's acceptable and giving it a pass makes you part of the problem, because these attitudes are what causes the actions against legal citizens. There is a reason why individuals such as this are viewed negatively. It's because they are negative people, and should be seen as such.

What do you all think? Am I right or wrong? Discuss.

It's in our nature to be suspicious of the outsider... it's the "us" vs. "them" mentality, and all species have it.

Now, I fully believe than as intelligent human beings in modern society, we should be able to work around that instinctual drive, and for the most part, we do. Society as a whole has become more and more tolerant of minorities, and we've seen great changes (equality for women, blacks, etc), especially throughout the Western world.

Now, I fully believe in equal rights for all, but are you seriously suggesting that a person should be persecuted for their beliefs or opinions?
As long as one doesn't act out their beliefs in discriminatory ways, then he or she should be allowed to think whatever the hell they want, free from scrutiny. I could dislike Arabs, for example, but if that dislike never permeates into my attitude towards them, or influences the way I interact with or treat them, then it's harmless. A person should not be condemned for their own private opinions, unless those opinions affect others in a negative way.

But yeah, like I said, it's an instinctual thing. We, as a species, are gradually overcoming the limits bestowed upon us by nature, but for now, we're nothing but animals.

 

[101flyboy]

-snip-

-snip-

So you both discriminate bigots? Yay! hypocracy abound!

To put it bluntly: you are worng in saying that racists/sexists/homophobic aren't entitled to their opinion and that it is wrong. I'm sure you hate a lot of things people would consider stupid, archaic or just plain wrong as well. Stop trying to be some shining exemplar of paragon ideals because the most paragon ideal is to let people be who they choose to be. If that means they hate black, female lesbians, then that's their decision and I support their conviction 100% if they truly believe in that, so long as it's just words and not actions. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, regardless of what you think their opinion should be or if it's right or wrong.

There's a famous quote by Mr. Winston Churchill that really hits home in this sort of topic: "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Regardless of which side of the coin you look at, be it the bigots/sexists/homophobes or the racially different/opposite gender/homosexuals, they both have stood up for their beliefs and they have every right to do so and be correct in doing so. Regardless of what you want to believe, they are all right in what they say, think and feel and for you to say that's wrong is beyond the evil you claim to be trying to stamp out. You are the evil, my good sir/madame for trying to silence those around you by claiming their beliefs are incorrect.

I never said that a person isn't entitled to their beliefs. I said essentially that although you have a right to say something, that damn sure doesn't mean you are right, and I am required to accept your positions as OK when they aren't, that I have to respect bigotry, or agree with it and just sit and complacently watch someone spread lies and hatred. People are entitled to be wrong. You are free to choose wrong.

Let people be who they choose to be? Interesting. Should we let Neo-Nazi skinheads spread racist ideals and be actively racist? Should we just choose to allow pedophiles be? Where does that line end? That's dangerous. At some point there has to be a line, where one does not cross. A moral code. I am not evil whatsoever. I'm not silencing anyone. Bigoted beliefs are incorrect. I'm not going to say otherwise just to give someone the benefit of the doubt. If someone is doing something wrong, they need to be called out on that accordingly. It's really not hard logic to fathom. People can and have stood up for a lot of wrong things. That doesn't make it right whatsoever. Just because someone believes something or says they are right, doesn't mean they are right. Let's stop PC bullshit and call things for what they truly are.

For you to say I'm wrong in not supporting bigotry is about as..................unspeakable as it gets. You essentially support bigots and bigoted ideals. That is uncivilized and inhumane. There aren't two sides of the coin. Not all view points are valid. Bigotry is wrong. Common sense tells us this. If you don't have the common sense to comprehend this, then I'm sorry for you.

 

[101flyboy]

It was "I don't like homosexual." If actions occur, then that should be dealt with as needed. Trying to control thoughts, unpopular or otherwise, is wrong, not to mention practically impossible.

It is NOT OK. Yes, people are entitled to their opinions. That doesn't make them right, they're still wrong, but it's that persons' choice to be wrong.

This is self-contradictory. If people can have their own opinions, how is that "wrong"? What are you arguing against if you agree people are allowed to have their own opinions (as if they're seeking your approval)?

Thank you. I find it so amusing when people say we have to accept them for who they are, but our thoughts are wrong and terrible. Not that I care about homosexuality one way or the other-it doesn't affect my life in any way so I'm not going to get worked up about it. Of course they should be treated fairly and equally. But how dare they tell someone that what may be their initial gut reaction of fear and/or disgust, that it makes them a bad person. If you can't change the emotions that make you gay, how do they change the emotions that make them scared?

Are you kidding? No-one has said anything about a person in general being bad because of __________. However, if a person does feel fear or disgust irrationally towards homosexual persons simply because of their homosexuality, they have a problem they need to address, and are in the wrong. It's not right to be homophobic, hence the term homophobia. Being gay isn't an emotion, which is the whole point. Homophobia is an emotion, making it irrational by definition. Rational thinking people don't decide things like their feelings towards gay persons simply on banal emotions. Like, really. SCARED and THREATENED over an individual, because of their sexuality? That's clearly not common sense, it's wrong. And that insecurity harms others, and harms the insecure person also. Which is why it does need to be addressed.

People don't choose to be gay/black/women. People do choose homophobia. You are entitled to choose to be homophobic, but expect rational minded people to call you out on it for exactly what it is.

 

[MaxwellEdison]

Yeah, well, some people are morons I guess. Next time, just say, "Yes, I agree, being a racist is completely acceptable, you should share opinion with said disliked group so they understand that it's alright when people arbitrarily dislike them due to traits they did not choose to have/do not affect their personality in any way."

 

[101flyboy]

What if I think all religious beliefs are beneath my chosen facts?

There is a difference between bigotry and principled opinions. You just have the opinion that religion isn't right or something you are into, because of the facts that lead you to believe differently. That's different than "I don't like homosexuals."

 

[Faladorian]

What if you're indoctrinated into bigoted beliefs?

Then try to fix it, or not act on them, would be my guess.

And the same exact fucking thing could be done about religious beliefs. There's no reason why someone could not renounce their religion in the blink of an eye besides just massive stubborn nature.

 

[Blind Sight]

I have no issues with them speaking their mind on the subject, or avoiding the group. The problem for me is when they try to act on those beliefs, via violence actions, attempting to force government action against them, or trying to make those other people conform to their own beliefs. I'd rather have my bigots screaming their opinions so we can look at them and realize they're idiots, rather then try to shut them up with political correctness. Because you never know, they might end up in a position of power as a result and use it to abuse whatever group they dislike.

 

[101flyboy]

So, I'm pretty new here, hello everyone, I'm sure you've seen me around. Anyway, I was checking out OTD forum last night, and some guy said something like I don't like black people, am I right? I don't like ____________ group, I don't recall who it was. And he said that was a legitimate opinion to have, and that it's just a preference. Others agreed with him. And I've noticed people making excuses for this type of behavior.

Well, no. It isn't OK to racist, homophobic, sexist etc. It isn't OK to dislike black people for their race, it isn't OK to be against homosexuality, and it isn't OK to think women are lesser beings than men, think all other religious options are beneath your chosen belief, and we can go on from there. It is NOT OK. Yes, people are entitled to their opinions. That doesn't make them right, they're still wrong, but it's that persons' choice to be wrong. And remember, people don't choose to be black/gay/women etc. A lot of people don't really "choose" their religious beliefs either, they are indoctrinated into them. However, bigoted beliefs against these groups is most certainly a choice.

I get tired when people make defense of such actions. People especially do it when it comes to sexuality/gender related things. Like somehow religion/"ick" factor/society/whatever bullshit they can think of makes is reasonable to be a bigot against these things. Well, someone needs to say it loud and clear. It isn't. And thinking it's acceptable and giving it a pass makes you part of the problem, because these attitudes are what causes the actions against legal citizens. There is a reason why individuals such as this are viewed negatively. It's because they are negative people, and should be seen as such.

What do you all think? Am I right or wrong? Discuss.

you're wrong
Black people do it to white people just the same

Exhibit A ; Chris Rock
Exhibit B : Dave Chapelle
Exhibit C : Black rappers in general
Exhibit D : Gang violence/targeted gang violence

What are these examples supposed to be? Black people who go after white people, for being white? Or that black people are bad?

Why do you label individuals as "black people" and "white people" rather than people who are black/white/latin etc?

 

[Berethond]

Well, actually, we are born racist.

How can anyone be born racist? We don't just pop out of our mothers and decide we hate on a group/race of people.

The way we're brought up, company we keep and general experiences would be the things to turn people racist.

No, we pop out of our mommies and hate on everyone who is not of the same color and therefore tribe and therefore family as our mommies.

 

[Blind Sight]

Why do you label individuals as "black people" and "white people" rather than people who are black/white/latin etc?

Ok, I see where you're coming from in your opening post, but this comment just screams of you trying to force extreme political correctness. It sounds like something from that 'subconscious racist language' that I've heard arguments for (i.e. so they can win an argument someone claims that the other side is 'subconsciously showing racism through vocal and body language), he's dividing them based on their skin colour to show that the interactions between the two don't go one way, ok? Honestly, overanalysis like this is just getting ridicious.

 

[101flyboy]

Snip

Interesting tidbit:

That guy actually made a thread about the backlash he received from that thread. The one where he never actually said in the OP that he hated homosexuals, even though people ended up calling him a bigot anyway. You can find it here:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.251452-So-much-for-the-new-forum-rules

OT: I more or less agree with that guy. Whatever you beliefs are, I can't be bothered to care. I honestly, deep down in my God-worshiping heart don't give a shit if the WBC hates gay people. I really don't care. I have no problem with homosexuals; I lived with one this entire semester. If it bothers the WBC, so be it. What I do care about is the fact that the WBC has the audacity to make their business other people's business. If you act in a way that negatively affects the lives of others (according to whoever the "others" are in that case), then we have a problem. But people are just as entitled to their beliefs as long as they don't interfere with peoples' lives. A person can believe that white people are the devil all they want, but if they treat white people like the devil in every day life, there's an issue. That is the only time I would have an issue.

I agree to a certain point. I don't actually care about bigoted individuals. Honestly, once I see their bigotry, I'm disappointed for about 5-15 seconds, and then I just rearrange my view of them, or cut them completely. It's not something that keeps me up at night in any way. With that said, the reason WHY people commit these unspeakable acts is BECAUSE of their bigoted mindset, and that is the problem. If you just allow bigots to hold bigoted opinions, they will feel empowered and justified in their beliefs, and potentially commit terrible crimes. And, in the real world, there are black people, gay people, women, Arabs, and we can go on and on. Having irrationally biased views against an entire group of people negatively affects a persons' ability to function in society, and obviously think in a principled or reasonable way. Also, people who spew these beliefs, if they are not stigmatized, spread these views to others who are infected by them, by other adopting them, or being negatively affected by them personally because those beliefs are against them personally or their identified group.

So, while no-one should allow another human being to dictate their complete self identity in an inordinate amount, it is still necessary to rightfully condemn things that actively harm humanity as a whole, and bigoted beliefs do just that.

 

[101flyboy]

Why do you label individuals as "black people" and "white people" rather than people who are black/white/latin etc?

Ok, I see where you're coming from in your opening post, but this comment just screams of you trying to force extreme political correctness. It sounds like something from that 'subconscious racist language' that I've heard arguments for (i.e. so they can win an argument someone claims that the other side is 'subconsciously showing racism through vocal and body language), he's dividing them based on their skin colour to show that the interactions between the two don't go one way, ok? Honestly, overanalysis like this is just getting ridicious.

You're right, I did over analyze a bit, however, it's not PC to realize that people aren't defined solely by their race.