Nobel laureate forced out of studies after making joke about women

[Thaluikhain]

Doesn't anyone find it ironic that by trying to enforce a tolerant work environment and make them less hostile, we have now gone to the opposite problem where we are now less tolerant and our workplaces are more hostile, but in a different manner.

You can't support tolerance without being intolerant of intolerance. You have to be hostile to hostility to avoid being hostile in general.

 

[Frission]

Doesn't anyone find it ironic that by trying to enforce a tolerant work environment and make them less hostile, we have now gone to the opposite problem where we are now less tolerant and our workplaces are more hostile, but in a different manner.

You can't support tolerance without being intolerant of intolerance. You have to be hostile to hostility to avoid being hostile in general.

Perhaps, but you risk also falling into the paradox of 'doing war to ensure peace', where you engage in means of dubious moral value to fight an evil. Then there's also the whole problem of he who fights monsters, since the opposite incident happened during the event with the Asteroid landing scientist where I had the distinct impression that the ones being vicious was not the guy wearing the shirt.

To be practical, of course you're going to have to reprimand or even fire someone such as a fascist, criminal or a constant harasser, but there's degrees. A good society can't jump between extremes.

I think most people fundamentally want the same thing in this case. A welcome and productive workplace. It's just that our attempts as fallible human beings are doomed to be imperfect.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Perhaps, but you risk also falling into the paradox of 'doing war to ensure peace', where you engage in means of dubious moral value to fight an evil. Then there's also the whole problem of he who fights monsters, since the opposite incident happened during the event with the Asteroid landing scientist where I had the distinct impression that the ones being vicious was not the guy wearing the shirt.

To be practical, of course you're going to have to reprimand or even fire someone such as a fascist, criminal or a constant harasser, but there's degrees. A good society can't jump between extremes.

Oh certainly, but the idea isn't inherently a bad one. IMHO, people complaining about the complaints tend to be a lot louder and more vicious than the original complainers, often than what prompted the initial complaint.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Even if these asinine remarks were a joke, one I personally think isn't funny but who gives a shit, the right place was not as a guest speaker at an international symposium of your colleagues in which you are representing your honored institution.

It's like the shirt debacle all over again from both ends; the reaction has been grossly over the top but I cannot deny the action that led to it was at the very least, fucking stupid. That said, it should have been swiftly kicked in the pants by a statement to the effect of "This is an internal HR matter which we are treating as a breach of the code of conduct/ethics framework" - a swift bit of dignified mea culpa and a private but savage bollocking and the issue should be solved.

 

[Frission]

Oh certainly, but the idea isn't inherently a bad one. IMHO, people complaining about the complaints tend to be a lot louder and more vicious than the original complainers, often than what prompted the initial complaint.

Yup, although that may also be why people take it so far. The original idea and intentions are good. The problem is however, that we judge ourselves based on intentions, but others based on their results. Hooray for vicious circles.

It's one of these situations where you can sort of understand the intentions of both sides, while understanding that someone dropped the ball to let this situation get so ugly, because I don't think we should crow about forcing a noble laureate out of studies.

 

[Superbeast]

Even if these asinine remarks were a joke, one I personally think isn't funny but who gives a shit, the right place was not as a guest speaker at an international symposium of your colleagues in which you are representing your honored institution.

It's like the shirt debacle all over again from both ends; the reaction has been grossly over the top but I cannot deny the action that led to it was at the very least, fucking stupid. That said, it should have been swiftly kicked in the pants by a statement to the effect of "This is an internal HR matter which we are treating as a breach of the code of conduct/ethics framework" - a swift bit of dignified mea culpa and a private but savage bollocking and the issue should be solved.

It probably would have been dealt with that way had he not gone to the frickin' BBC and basically said that he was sorry if anyone was offended, that it was a stupid thing to say with journalists there, but he meant it and stood by his comments. A non-apology always makes things worse - puts any institution that may have been considering a quiet bollocking and a generic PR response into a bit of a predicament.

 

[AgedGrunt]

The guy's real mistake was not realising that in the current sociopolitical climate, making an off-colour quip about women is grounds for summary dismissal.

That's why it's better to have female privilege, because you can challenge and criticize men without being off-color until you talk about killing all of them. That's when a woman is allowed to be told she goes a bit too far.

 

[Nikolaz72]

This here is what is turning more and more people off of feminism. (Not necessarily 'against' feminism but fearing to be associated with these Witch-Hunters results in the reduced size and importance of a movement who still has a significant role to play in the future equality in society)

Emma Watson pretty much hit the nail on the head that these witch hunts over social media is whats bringing down feminism as a whole and it has to end. The guys comments were out of line but removing him from Cancer Research, a field in which he contributed immensely to combating breast cancer, I mean comeon. His removal from the field hurts women far more than his comment.

Its as if these peoples thoughts process end where their feelings begin.

 

[Batou667]

That's why it's better to have female privilege, because you can challenge and criticize men without being off-color until you talk about killing all of them. That's when a woman is allowed to be told she goes a bit too far.

...and even then, her incitement to hatred will be waved away as "satire" and continued to be published and widely available even decades after she demonstrated just how metaphorical her stance was by attempting to murder a man.

(We're talking about Valerie Solanas, right?)

 

[Kameburger]

You know what if he said it ironically, then I think it's absolutely ok... I think it's stupid that they fired him..

And here comes my rant...

Why the hell do people keeping demanding blood for words? honestly, we treat people who say stupid things as if we just discovered that they're secret sexist lizard people and we need to kill them and dissect them for study as soon as we find out. That's not how thoughts work, that's not how people work and the worst part is WE KNOW THAT!!! We've all said stupid embarrassing stuff that someone got mad at us for, and if you haven't you're probably not an honest human being. We're human beings god damn it, we have flaws and we don't need to crucify every single person who's ideas differ from our own, or worse, who's ideas don't differ from our own, but they said something that we were able to decipher as indicating that they did. When did we become like this?

Shouldn't we be a little ashamed that every 10 minutes we chase people out of the room with pitchforks and torches? Never before has it be easier to take people out of context.

I mean people keep building a business out of just pissing people off now?

And if that makes me some kind of privileged sexist pig, think what ever the hell you need to that helps you sleep at night.

 

[Kwak]

There was a summit in India, where he was invited to give (a rather narcissistic) account of his activities in his field of science.

That's a puzzling criticism to tell someone who was invited to give a talk about their experiences and their work. He can't exactly not talk about himself if that was the agreed on subject in the first place can he?

But yes to the rest of your post's wider points in general.
That he thought it might be worth commenting on the fact that relationships at work complicate the job, an obvious cliche, is poor judgement and may indicate a more problematic underlying attitude to women's place in science, but I'd need more information of his past behaviours to see him as representative of the forces ranged against women, as opposed to someone making a poorly-placed 'lol, office politics' comment who's old and out of touch with modern work environments.
One wonders if had a point in bringing that up in the first place (given the context of a talk meant to be encouraging women in science), and if he ever got to it.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

That's a puzzling criticism to tell someone who was invited to give a talk about their experiences and their work. He can't exactly not talk about himself if that was the agreed on subject in the first place can he?

You can be the pleasant recipient of an honour, or you can be an unpleasant recipient of an honour. It is possible..

But yes to the rest of your post's wider points in general.
That he thought it might be worth commenting on the fact that relationships at work complicate the job, an obvious cliche, is poor judgement and may indicate a more problematic underlying attitude to women's place in science, but I'd need more information of his past behaviours to see him as representative of the forces ranged against women, as opposed to someone making a poorly-placed 'lol, office politics' comment who's old and out of touch with modern work environments.
One wonders if had a point in bringing that up in the first place (given the context of a talk meant to be encouraging women in science), and if he ever got to it.

Pretty much. I think the apology is actually worse than the 'joke' though. "Hey, it's just a personal failure of mine that I can't take women seriously in the laboratory! I mean ... that's funny, right!?"

Yeah. No. Not funny.

I mean, he probably didn't mean it like that. It's just that that's what he's saying. It's like ... yeah, maybe you should just not give speeches in public. He seems to have a problem with sticking his foot in his mouth.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Ah the wonderful world of tomorrow, band together enough moronically offended people and you can get anyone fired.
While it sucks that he had to go over a joke you really don't want to work around people this fucking twitchy, next time you know they got you on sexual assault charges for shaking hands with someone.

 

[hentropy]

I'm tired of men in science. They're always breaking beakers with their ape-like hands, daring each other drink chemicals. So juvenile. Not to mention they're always going into the bathroom and wanking one into the sink, being uncontrollable sexual monsters and whatnot.

Now please, laugh at my joke and don't make a big deal out of my virulent sexism because I won an award.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I'm tired of men in science. They're always breaking beakers with their ape-like hands, daring each other drink chemicals. So juvenile. Not to mention they're always going into the bathroom and wanking one into the sink, being uncontrollable sexual monsters and whatnot.

Now please, laugh at my joke and don't make a big deal out of my virulent sexism because I won an award.

The fact people are not tweeting about this post and that you haven't been fired from your job as a professional Internet poster only proves the double standard!

 

[Silvanus]

I'm tired of men in science. They're always breaking beakers with their ape-like hands, daring each other drink chemicals. So juvenile.

Come on, Hentropy, that's pretty mean. I can't damn well help my massive ape-like hands, can I? It's not my fault they're like that; it's all the chemicals I drank.

 

[Piorn]

So a man says women can't take criticism, and they immediately prove him right by overreacting like crazy.
That would be ironic and funny, if it wasn't so sad.
But crying women is really something we have to live with, especially in a world where personal feelings are valued higher than science.