Nuclear Armageddon is here... (Wheres The Satellite?)

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Captinchunk

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Apr 5, 2009
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I just laugh at the rockets epic fail.
Ploped in the sea.
Their like a lower school bully with an older brother (China).
He picks on the weak little kid (Japan) and when the upper school kids (EU, USA) retaliate (sp) his older brother steps in and they back up. But the older brother is kinda sick of him starting trouble and is soon enough going to give him a slap but the older kids aren't allowed.
I think i've got that pretty well. Anyone got anything else?
 

Dastardos

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Jan 4, 2009
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Ken Korda said:
ahem

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7984254.stm
ahem [http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/04/05/north.korea.rocket/index.html]

North Korea says it carried out successful, peaceful launch of a satellite
South Korea calls report of launch a "serious threat" to world peace

The payload landed in the ocean though, so how was the launch successful?
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
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A few points:

1. The Nazis are misrepresented in American propaganda. They were a hugely popular regime domestically. The images of Secret Police disappearing people by night and a climate of fear and paranoia is far from the truth. Rather they fanatically rallied the German people, and actually had huge amounts of support in nations they conquered like France despite what the people there claim about their "resistance" after the fact.

In the end Allied troops faced the Volkssturm which was simply put the response of the common person in Germany. Young kids, old men and women, everyone literally picked up arms and threw themselves at the invading allies. While not as heavily publicized the things we did to stop this were simply put monsterous as that is what war is like. Groups like "The Hitler Youth" did not just vanish, nor did the massive public support the Nazi regime enjoyed.

Don't get me wrong, the Nazis did a lot of extremely evil things, but in general they were a group of highly popular economic reformists. Hitler himself was Time's "Man Of The Year" (if I recall the right magazine) based on his national policies, albeit this nomination had nothing to do with the Anti-Semitic Genocide or anything like that.

The thing is that a lot of people who invoke the image of "Nazis" are referring to a Hollywood image that never was. The Smithsonian has an entire section devoted to Allied propaganda during the war, and yeah... we demonized the Nazis pretty badly to make them easier to kill.

One thing connected to this is for example the "Human Skin Lampshades" which were tested and revealed to be goat skin. While it's acknowleged that there might be some nazi-crafted human flesh lampshades in undisclosed private collections, the ones avialible to the public and produced by the War Department were frauds intended to inspire hatred. The Nazis DID kill millions of Jews, but they did not flay them and use their skin for handcrafts.


2. When it comes to a militia, yes, there are ways that such things CAN go wrong which is why there is a system of balances. Where armed civilians balance the goverment, there are also things that the goverment has (or is supposed to have) for it's police forces to in turn keep them in line. Both exist and are supposed to play against each other.

The idea that anyone can become a cop, soldier, or even a general is part of it as well. Reducing the chances that the military can ever become a direct political tool, with say The President commanding the military to occupy the US under permanant martial law and round up all other sections (Congress, Senate, Supreme Court ) of the goverment. It also reduces the chance that a citizen-soldier is going to fire on civilians in his own country just because the goverment tells him to.

Of course with higher standards for the military (ie a smaller, more selective force) there is a problem as a definate caste is slowly developing with elitist practices and military families, that can erode that part of the equasion, but that is another discussion entirely.

Overall though the Nazis were not a whack job militia, they were a political party that rallied both the goverment of the time AND the people together. They also did not disarm the populance quite like has been suggesed above. Quite the contrary, especially in the final days of the war. Do some reading on the "Volkssturm" and what actually happened, though admittedly it's not exactly politically correct so hard information is hard to find, it doesn't play to our whole humanitarian vibe, and how the "greatest generation" were clean cut white knights beyond moral reproach. World War II was one of the dirtiest wars ever fought, it's just that unlike now we were smart enough to employ our own propaganda and information control and demonize our enemies while promoting ourselves, and effectively gagging alternative opinions by the media. Exactly the opposite of what we're doing in say Iraq.

We were "right" in World War II, but it's an academic point especially seeing as we won and got to write the history books. It was a very nasty affair.


3. America has the "Barbarians At the Gates" mentality because really we're the most enlightened culture to ever exist on planet earth, and even the best of the rest are at least a bit behind.

See, the thing is that America has a lot of problems, but most of the nations that do the criticizing are mono-ethnic, have extremely tight immigration, and/or for all apperances do not provide the degree of freedom that the US has to begin with.

For example France, one of our biggest critics, has very little in the way of empowered minorities (look at their Muslim riots and what set them off), it also has very tight immigration policies and standards for citizenship, it almost pulled out of the EU in the beginning because of the fear that it would be too easy for people from the rest of europe to move there and become French and draw French benefits. It also does not have a free press although it tries to present the illusion of one.

The same can be said of pretty much every nation out there. A lot of times we're receiving criticism for problems we are dealing with because of our tolerance and enlightenment. Sure we could lob like 99% of the minority groups over the border, and use "soft" discrimination tactics like some of the other nations that have minority populations do (as opposed to "hard" tactics for those that know the differance). Becoming more or less mono-ethnic with everyone fully adapted to the mainstream WOULD solve a lot of problems, and we could be just like a lot of our critics. But then we wouldn't be very bloody enlightened now would we?

In general the thing is that every culture out there wants to have itself be validated as "right" and "correct". To acknowledge that they are wrong about anything, can ultimatly put thousands of years worth of history and identity to question. Ignorance, solidarity, and convincing themselves that they are right, becomes a nessecity.

What's more most people on the planet more or less agree at least academically that humanity needs to be unified for it to survive. Space exploration is becoming a nessecity for living space if nothing else, never mind the need for resources irregardless of the expense of retreiving them to begin with (which is why so many nations are developing space programs or trying to), but it's not really practical with a divided planet for a lot of reasons (another whole discussion).

The thing is though that most people want to see THEIR culture be the one that everyone unites under. Viewed this way the USA's system is the only way to go. While many might not realize it if the French or Chinese or whatever were to take over and make everywhere France or China you'd see a single ethnicity dominating since the culture and ethnicity/nationality are the same. You'd wind up with a goodly portion of humanity as second class citizens.

China in paticular has a kind of eerie "master race" doctrine when you get down to it.

Of course the problem is that when things are presented this way, people from other nations who want their own history validated are likely to jump up and down and scream that what I'm saying is not true, and point out their accomplishments such as they are. The thing is though that we're looking at an overall situation and an accomplishment in one area without it happening with the full range of what we have done at the same time is ultimatly meaningless.

See for example, without a truely free press, and sizable minority populations, claiming that you've ended racism better than the US is just BS, since people don't exactly have room to bellyache to the mass societal consciousness (and they always will, over everything, racial or otherwise).

People naturally assume that when I refer to the US as being "the most enlightened" that I am portraying everyone else as facists or whatever, when that isn't the case. It's merely comparitive.

Also keep in mind that when I speak of the USA, I also refer to it's more or less direct Hegemony. While on paper seperate nations and in many cases vehement about it, I consider Pureto Rico, Canada, Samoa, etc.. to be extensions of the American culture/Hegemony to one extent or another.

As someone went off about before, Canada HAS made a lot of strides in civil liberties and is very close to the USA, but this is largely because of the USA. But despite how close things are there, there are still little issues like their gun control, and things like the abillity of their police to employ "blanket warrents" and effectively suspend the rights of their citizens (which I learned about in Criminal Justice classes a while ago).

I've been to Canada before (Niagra Falls specifically), for all intents and purposes it functions as an extension of the US. Arguably "little America" is the next best thing to America. Followed by the UK and Australia. Canada, America, and Australia all having come from the same English/British roots, and while people focus on the differances are alike in more ways than apart. As such, these cultures represent the most enlightened ones on the planet cumulatively and the best hope for humanity in general. Though admittedly there ARE degrees between them with America and it's Hegemony leading the pack.
 

Ignignoct

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Feb 14, 2009
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Ya'll are too dramatic.

Pro-tip:

The US has a bunch of anti-missile "Aegis" ships stationed in Japan, and these ships deploy 6 months out of the year (instead of 1 6-month per 2 years) specifically because Lil' Kim likes to bluff like this.

Every year we do training exercises with South Korea and NoKo acts like it's an act of war and by god THEY WILL RETALIATE!!!...

NoKo = attention whores with impotent Taepodongs.

Don't pretend that Japan doesn't have it's own military either-- OH! Excuse me... I mean, their own "Self Defense Force".

It's fine.

Nothing to see here.

We have 24/7 surveillance and a response team if there is any danger.

Relaaaaaax.
 

Sib

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Dec 22, 2007
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Therumancer said:
3. America has the "Barbarians At the Gates" mentality because really we're the most enlightened culture to ever exist on planet earth, and even the best of the rest are at least a bit behind.
You had me up until there. Really now, think about that sentence.
 

Lyiat

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Dec 10, 2008
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orifice said:
Lyiat said:
Honestly? I'm more worried about... you know... radical Islam? You know, that religion that keeps publicly stating about how it wants to destroy every single other religion out there? Including those who don't follow religion? North Korea is a really small threat. They launch a single missile and we can just carpet bomb them to hell and back. Radical Islam? Well... tell me exactly how you plan on taking care of roughly a hundred million people in all portions of the globe.
Actually there are 1.4 billion muslims! And I agree, by the way!
1.4 billion Muslims, but only 10% are from Radical Islam. Granted, that doesn't mean the rest of them are peaceful, but I'm more worried about the crazies.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Sib said:
Therumancer said:
3. America has the "Barbarians At the Gates" mentality because really we're the most enlightened culture to ever exist on planet earth, and even the best of the rest are at least a bit behind.
You had me up until there. Really now, think about that sentence.

Okay, so I'm not a very good writer.

Apparently I need Jingoism lessons. :p

>>>----Therumancer-->
 

Macgyvercas

Spice & Wolf Restored!
Feb 19, 2009
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I'm just waiting for nuclear radiation to start turning people into zombies so I can go kill crazy on some undead ass
 

confernal

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Feb 5, 2009
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Luckly I live on my small little island that nobodys heard of, so when the nukes go off... YOUR ALL SCREWED!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!... Sorry about that, I've been hear too long.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Lyiat said:
orifice said:
Lyiat said:
Honestly? I'm more worried about... you know... radical Islam? You know, that religion that keeps publicly stating about how it wants to destroy every single other religion out there? Including those who don't follow religion? North Korea is a really small threat. They launch a single missile and we can just carpet bomb them to hell and back. Radical Islam? Well... tell me exactly how you plan on taking care of roughly a hundred million people in all portions of the globe.
Actually there are 1.4 billion muslims! And I agree, by the way!
1.4 billion Muslims, but only 10% are from Radical Islam. Granted, that doesn't mean the rest of them are peaceful, but I'm more worried about the crazies.
-

This gets into a pretty messy issue. I think that here in the USA we want to believe we're dealing with a minority mentality, but honestly I think the problem is that the overwhelming amount of the culture throughout the entire "Muslim World" is what we would call "Radical Islam".

Only 10% of the people might actively be engaged in fighting, but the rest support the ideaology more or less, and act to support those who are actually fighting. This is why a guy with an RPG can fire at an American Hummer and then retreat into a crowd that will close around him (unlike other places where the crowd would panic and scatter).

For me the telling moment though was when 9/11 happened and we saw footage from nations all around The Middle East of people literally taking to the streets and partying. They weren't being held at gunpoint, they were simply that overjoyed at the "Victory". Oh sure we put a few on that were "sad" about things, especially once an anti-war movement got started in the US, but that doesn't change what happened. Just imagine what it would take to get a reaction like that here in the US.

Sure, there are moderate and progressive islamics, but most of them are in other nations outside of the region (or attempting to emigrate from the region), but those are not what
we are dealing with.

-

On the issue itself I see North Korea as being a bigger potential threat not because of the WMD itself, but because of the guidance technology involved. Basically they are demonstrating the possibility of being able to fire a nuke at the US, or heck, if not us anyone else that they want to.

The Islamic world by and large does not have this capability, Pakistan for example is unlikely to be able to deliver it's munitions anywhere except India. Iran is a bigger "threat" because of the fact that they might attempt to use WMD on Isreal if they develop them.

What's more I think carpet bombing Korea back to the stone age would be a powerful example globally speaking and earn back the US a lot of the "street cred" it's been losing due to failed police actions since Veitnam.

-

If we were at some point to crush the Middle Eastern region I think those living abroad would eventually adapt to the societies they are in now (at least far more than they are currently adapted). It wouldn't happen overnight but basically if you deal with The Middle East you eventually deal with the problems caused by the whole "Cosm" of Islam.

HOWEVER, we're talking about North Korea, not The Middle East which is an entirely differant situation.

Honestly as North Korea is more nationalism/reason based than The Middle East, not to mention occupying a smaller area, they are also easier to break/keep broken. Fighting a nation and a religious culture are two differant things.

Even if one argues that Muslim Culture (whether you believe it's a radical minority within it or not) is a bigger threat, and it probably is overall, that does not mean that North Korea is not a threat and does not need to be dealt with. It simply means that there is more than one problem that needs to be dealt with.
 

goodman528

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Jul 30, 2008
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Therumancer said:
The thing is though that most people want to see THEIR culture be the one that everyone unites under. Viewed this way the USA's system is the only way to go. While many might not realize it if the French or Chinese or whatever were to take over and make everywhere France or China you'd see a single ethnicity dominating since the culture and ethnicity/nationality are the same. You'd wind up with a goodly portion of humanity as second class citizens.
Firstly, I'm surprised anyone would write this much on page 7 of a forum, and even more surprised that what you wrote was actually coherent and readable. So surprised that I read the whole thing. (You can thank me later)

Couldn't you see the irony of what you wrote whilst arguing America was the master race?! Go on, read what you wrote again...

Therumancer said:
Arguably "little America" is the next best thing to America. Followed by the UK and Australia. Canada, America, and Australia all having come from the same English/British roots, and while people focus on the differances are alike in more ways than apart. As such, these cultures represent the most enlightened ones on the planet cumulatively and the best hope for humanity in general. Though admittedly there ARE degrees between them with America and it's Hegemony leading the pack.
lol, OK. You know this is precisely why it was necessary to dehumanise the Nazis, so people like you can't say, no I'm not a racist, I just think my race is much better than yours. And just out of curiosity, is the human lampshade thing taught in textbooks in America or something? I've see this quite a few times now from Americans, but having taken history class in school here in the UK, I've never heard this mentioned.

Therumancer said:
China in paticular has a kind of eerie "master race" doctrine when you get down to it.
THIS ^ IS WRONG. I am Chinese, and so are many of my friends, and I go on a couple of major Chinese forums from time to time. So I can tell you absolutely three things:

1) My best friend back in school in China was a Muslim, Hui ethnicity. There many Hui Muslims in my province, and throughout northern China, they are integrated into society better than in the west.

2) In China ethnic minorities makes up ~10% of the population, that is 1.3 billion people! Or roughly half the population of USA. They have privileges and advantages, and are positively discriminated for, in everything from taxation to government investment, to implementation of policies, that is a quite well known fact. And unlike in the west, there are is no racist bitching about how the minorities gets so many advantages. Although since the western media's unfair Portray of the so called issue of Tibet, some racist tensions has been stirred up.

3) Most Chinese people are not political, I'm in the minority that are. Most of us think Democracy is the best form of government, and the American political system is better than the current Chinese communist system. The Chinese forums, and I mean the mainstream ones, not the ones opened by crazy dissidents, are full of photos of luxury Chinese government buildings contrasted with humble American town halls.

China does not has a "master race" doctrine, I have no idea where you would get such an idea from. If anything Chinese thinking is a lot more similar to Japanese thinking before WWII, except in the China VS Japan debate, there is a lot more Chinese blood on Japanese hands since the last war, and mostly civilian blood, and the Japanese are not only actively denying this, but worshipping class A war criminals in shrines. Imagine how Jews would feel if Germany had a shrine dedicated to people like Himmler, Hess, and Eichmann? Then the chancellor of Germany goes to this shrine every year to worship them? That's pretty much what the nationalist protests were about.
 

JakubK666

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Jan 1, 2008
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Meh...after having an epiphany in which a realised I'm just statistic, I really don't care anymore. If something happens,it will happen and I won't be able to do anything about it, therefore why should I give a shit? To quote Magus:

" If history is to change, let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If it it my fate to die, I must simply laugh, "

If there's going to be a nuclear war, you will find me in my backgarden, watching the mushroom clouds and enjoying the hell out of it.
 

Novania

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Feb 5, 2009
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fullmetalangel said:
LewsTherin said:
Theres about 20 million people in the greater Los Angeles area, 100 million in Japan, 3 million in the area of Vancouver, 50 million in South Korea, and then of course there's China, but I'm not sure of their relations with North Korea.

One nuke in the right spot and a LOT of people die.
You get a cookie for mentioning Vancouver and saying exactly what I wanted to say :3
Double cookie.
 

MrSnugglesworth

Into the Wild Green Snuggle
Jan 15, 2009
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Booze Zombie said:
If it's actually just a satellite, then the Koreans are justified to respond, I do believe.
If not... what's one missile gonna do?
Its gonna blow up the nuke factory, duh.