Obama ends military ban

[Enamour]

It's not childish! It's just an involuntary subconscious reaction! Hell, pretty much ANYONE acts at least a bit differently around someone they know is gay and aren't gay themselves. You may not think you do, but you do. All I care about is whether or not it would affect the mission.

This is the first time I've seen someone come up with a semi-valid argument against this. It'll doubtlessly have AN effect but I'm sceptical whether it would translate to lost lives but that's similar to what you're saying as well.

I'm gonna disagree with you on the sub-conscious thing; disliking homosexuality is a pre-conscious response ie. learnt behaviour, which I think is further validated by entire civilizations having been built on actively homosexualized militaries. The Spartans for example encouraged gayness; we put you next to your lover; the rationale being that the two would fight all that much harder to protect each other. Alexander's armies were not un-gay. The Roman armies for centuries, before the church came along, glorified love between men. Most of the Greek armies.

I know the modern US military has been built in a different culture so the rules are different, so I'm going to conjecture on it with another psychologically driven response. The training that military guys go through is meant to break you down so the military can rebuild you; your identity to a lesser or greater extent is centred around that training. A strong force that bonds people together is mutually experienced hardship, so I reckon that if a dude is "out" from the get-go then he has time to bond with his squad/unit mates; it's more of a familial response in the end, a feeling of brotherhood between soldiers. I think that's another reason why soldiers sometimes struggle to reintegrate into civilian society; they've a new identity built upon vastly differing norms.

tl;dr I'm trying to make you feel better... I think. We should grab some cocktails and discuss it in a more intimate setting.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

For some reason my mind immediately goes to the showers. Are homosexuals going to get different showers? Or does everyone in the military have their own personal shower? I don't know, I've never served (obviously).

To be honest, this did not even occur to me until you mentioned it. While in the military, I did not have any particular fear of gay people watching me shower or anything of that nature but I did note that I was forced to shower separately from females, presumably in part because I found them sexually attractive. While I would not want to further splinter the shower system (that was stressed enough with two groups when I was deployed), I am forced to wonder who would gays shower with. I suppose one's answer to the question would fall into three camps. The first would say that they should shower with people they do not find sexually attractive (leading to the problem of showering with the opposite gender), the second leaves them in the same position as now (I see no problem) and the third would have them showering with other like minded individuals (the equivalent of having me shower with the heterosexual females). I see no reason to change but then I can also see people arguing that they ought to be segregated.

 

[Saelune]

Now if only we were treated as full humans, things would be ok. But ya know...religion.

 

[Saelune]

For some reason my mind immediately goes to the showers. Are homosexuals going to get different showers? Or does everyone in the military have their own personal shower? I don't know, I've never served (obviously).

To be honest, this did not even occur to me until you mentioned it. While in the military, I did not have any particular fear of gay people watching me shower or anything of that nature but I did note that I was forced to shower separately from females, presumably in part because I found them sexually attractive. While I would not want to further splinter the shower system (that was stressed enough with two groups when I was deployed), I am forced to wonder who would gays shower with. I suppose one's answer to the question would fall into three camps. The first would say that they should shower with people they do not find sexually attractive (leading to the problem of showering with the opposite gender), the second leaves them in the same position as now (I see no problem) and the third would have them showering with other like minded individuals (the equivalent of having me shower with the heterosexual females). I see no reason to change but then I can also see people arguing that they ought to be segregated.

If a gay man hits on you. Tell them you are straight.
Ended. That assmes a gay man even hits on you. People need to get it out of their minds that gays are some sort of sex craving lunatics that will jump you in the shower.

 

[loc978]

I served four years on active duty. I served alongside men who were openly gay around anyone they thought they could trust... I've showered with said men, and they never looked at another man inappropriately while on duty. If anything, the gay soldiers I've met have been more professional than the rest of us. I indulged in the occasional joking/bragging regarding female soldier's "attributes" and which ones I've sampled... you'd never hear any such talk from the gay soldiers I've served with regarding the civilian men they've been with, in any company. Honestly, I was proud to serve with those men, and would still trust them with my life.
Infantry and Special Forces will come around when "the queers" start serving with them. Every fear, every downside is merely an irrational reaction to a widely believed stereotype.

 

[Kolby Jack]

-snip-

Just glad I'm not being seen as the crazy person in the corner of the room. As for that whole break-you-down thing, I dunno. The most experience I have with special forces training is that I read a book about it (and even that made me go O_O), but I don't think boot camp changed me really. I'm probably slightly more outgoing and in-shape than I was, but other than that I'm pretty much the same. Can't say that's true for everybody though; I'm pretty resistant to others' attempts to change me, and I didn't sign up for patriotic reasons. I just did it because I was jobless in a bad economy. Don't get me wrong though, I'm proud of my job and my sense of duty is all there, I just don't buy in to all that propaganda BS.

-snip-

And you, you're just not understanding what I am trying to say, so forget it. I don't make a habit of arguing with brick walls.

 

[Dags90]

I might be wrong, so I ask, someone please show me the newly drafted legislation that protects homosexual right to enter and remain in military service.

You're wrong. Following this legislation, gays will be allowed to serve openly. It has been gone over hundreds, possibly thousands of times by people.

 

[Kolby Jack]

I might be wrong, so I ask, someone please show me the newly drafted legislation that protects homosexual right to enter and remain in military service.

You're wrong. Following this legislation, gays will be allowed to serve openly. It has been gone over hundreds, possibly thousands of times by people.

You know, your damn avatar makes me read every one of your posts like it's being said with attitude by Tyra Banks. Just thought you should know that.

 

[Dr. Pepper Unlimited]

Finally...glad to see this finally get the axe. It took long enough.

 

[SenseOfTumour]

I personally find it hilarious that a man can not fear guns, knives, chemical weapons and suicide bombers, but lies in constant terror that someone in his unit might try to kiss him on the bottom.

Newsflash, you're just not that beautiful, buddy, they CAN resist you. I assume you consider women to be safe from being raped by you just because they work near you? Therefore quit worrying about gays. They really don't try to slip it when you pick up the soap in the shower.

Yes, I'm using terrible outdated stereotypes, but that seems to be what homophobia is built upon. If you as a straight man, can work with women, then gay men can work with you.

 

[Craazhy]

This had to happen. We put Obama in office, ending the pattern of white men only in the White House. Better or worse, we broke a chain in the name of tolerance (and, you know, hating Bush). After this, all other intolerances in America look exactly cock-eyed stupid. It's too late for that line of thinking. That fad has run its course.

That.

The unit cohesion argument is obsolete. If Soldier A cannot perform with efficiency and calculated action because of a personal issue it has with Soldier B, the problem lies with Soldier A and should not have been permitted past BT if its first priority was not "to be an effective soldier".

 

[Sizzle Montyjing]

Oh no!
But everybody knows a gay man will bum you the first chance he gets!
It's common knowledge.
/massive amounts of sarcasm

Finally something sensible has been done.

 

[viranimus]

I might be wrong, so I ask, someone please show me the newly drafted legislation that protects homosexual right to enter and remain in military service.

You're wrong. Following this legislation, gays will be allowed to serve openly. It has been gone over hundreds, possibly thousands of times by people.

But I have to ask again. What legislation? Because repealing a law that didnt actually ban homosexuals from military service is not new legislation and as best as I can tell, even if this is in effect what the purpose of repeaing DADT is, there is no actual legislation that has been written and passed. If there is no actual legislation, or the law that banned homosexuals is not stricken then there is nothing legally stopping a commanding officer from asking the question and immediately discharging on the answer.

Again as best as I have been able to find, nothing new was written and Dont ask dont tell wasnt what banned homosexuals from military service in the first place, and the provision that did is still firmly in place.

 

[Outright Villainy]

They should've used this instead.

It's a good source of your daily potassium and sodomy.

My god, that's hilarious/strangely hypnotic...

Ot: About frickin' time.

 

[Vakz]

Well, color me apathetic. Now that Obama's fixed the gays-in-the-military problem, maybe he can get around to fixing the country he's leading. A guy can dream can't he?

Is this not VERY much relative to what YOU consider the problem with your country? For gay servicemen, this is as huge issue, and would certainly count as "fixing the country", in the name of tolerance and people's freedom to be who they are. SO many times have I heard americans complain about presidents "not fixing the country", but it's always that "FIX OUR COUNTRY". There are A LOT of things to deal with. Are you talking about the economy? Crime? Schools? All of this has to be fixed, but one man can only do so many things at a time.

 

[Killclaw Kilrathi]

You just don't get it. It's not about weakness, it's about difference. Even if they don't realize it themselves, knowing one of their team members is gay could alter the way they behave, which could lead to problems. It's nobodies' fault, and it's not a problem of "mental weakness." I also said I didn't know for sure it would ever happen, just that it could in theory and that it should be looked in to.

It was so hard to type that paragraph without insulting you, by the way.

Put simply, the military will have to adapt. This isn't some totally unique scenario, the Australian Defence Force removed its own version of DADT over a decade ago and now offers the same housing and pension benefits to homosexual couples (registered "interdependant" couples that is, since Australia still doesn't have gay marriage). Heck, just last year the ADF chipped in for a soldier's gender realignment surgery and now officially recognizes her as a female.

I'm not trying to antagonize here, I understand where you're coming from. But in the end you can't stand in the way of progress and ask for special exemptions because there might possibly be a negative consequence that can be avoided through appropriate training. I'm just trying to assure you here that this has happened before, and the same questions and concerns were raised. And as it turns out, it's not such a big deal at all.

 

[Riobux]

So President Obama finally signed off on the ending of DADT, heres the link.
http://news.yahoo.com/obama-ends-gays-us-military-ban-205550221.html
so what r your opinions on ending the ban?

Why is this a bad thing, ever? I just hope that any future homophobia in the army is treated severely.