Ooooh dear, a black actress is playing Live Action Ariel in the Little Mermaid movie.

[TheMysteriousGX]

Well, as a cynical grown-up, it sometimes irks that the real life humans behind these works of fiction evidently give so much thought to depicting minority and indigenous cultures in a respectful and authentic way while attaching so little value to anything culturally European or ethnically white. I'm not just talking Disney here. I'm talking in general terms about every movie, series, drama, cartoon and animation that treats people who look like me living in a place that resembles my country, not as something to be preserved or celebrated, but as a dull, problematically white, blank canvas to be "improved" or even "corrected" with a political correct nip here and a progressive tuck there. It's unrelenting and it's tedious as hell. As tedious as always being the sidekick? I hear you reply. As tedious as being the first dude to die in every horror movie? Yeah, I'll grant you that. But we need progress - real progress, not just "progressive"-sounding decisions like race-swapping or gender-swapping white male characters.

So, we're in this weird liminal space where Belle and the villagers being British in 18th century France is bad, but if the village had two or three people from France's 18th century Caribbean colonies, that would be worse because it would change the bad thing.

 

[Dalisclock]

Well, as a cynical grown-up, it sometimes irks that the real life humans behind these works of fiction evidently give so much thought to depicting minority and indigenous cultures in a respectful and authentic way while attaching so little value to anything culturally European or ethnically white. I'm not just talking Disney here. I'm talking in general terms about every movie, series, drama, cartoon and animation that treats people who look like me living in a place that resembles my country, not as something to be preserved or celebrated, but as a dull, problematically white, blank canvas to be "improved" or even "corrected" with a political correct nip here and a progressive tuck there. It's unrelenting and it's tedious as hell. As tedious as always being the sidekick? I hear you reply. As tedious as being the first dude to die in every horror movie? Yeah, I'll grant you that. But we need progress - real progress, not just "progressive"-sounding decisions like race-swapping or gender-swapping white male characters.

So, we're in this weird liminal space where Belle and the villagers being British in 18th century France is bad, but if the village had two or three people from France's 18th century Caribbean colonies, that would be worse because it would change the bad thing.

I rewatched the opening song to the animated version the other day and kept thinking "Isn't it kinda weird for a rural french peasant girl to be literate?"

 

[Silvanus]

Well yes, but who do you think makes up the majority of the fanbase/stakeholders here; people who have only ever read the Hans Christian Andersen story, or kids (and adults) who grew up with the Disney depiction of Ariel that has been consistent across three movies, various videogame and cartoon appearances, and extensive merchandising? When I say "source material" I meant the existing Disney version.

You don't mean source material, then-- you just mean a popular previous adaptation.

It's a peculiar argument (and nothing to do with artistic integrity) to suggest adaptations must remain consistent with past adaptations of the same source material, but not the material itself.

OK, good, so you concede there are certain characteristics that if changed would alter the character to an unacceptable degree. Why isn't ethnicity one of them? Almost everyone here seems to have decided a priori that The Little Mermaid's race is so irrelevant it's beneath discussion. The other upcoming live action Disney release being discussed on this forum is Mulan. Nobody is suggesting Mulan be portrayed by a black actress. Why?

Because Mulan is set in historic China, and the Little Mermaid is set under the sea.

 

[Baffle]

Because Mulan is set in historic China, and the Little Mermaid is set under the sea.

Yeah, but which sea?

I quite like the idea of it being set off the coast of Great Yarmouth. The whole show would've been about whether it was better to live above or under the water, because they're equally shit and likely to give you tetanus.

(As you may be able to tell, I've never seen The Little Mermaid, but I have been to Great Yarmouth. More than once.)

 

[Agema]

Is pretty much iconic to culture at this point. Having a Black Actress be this Ariel is the equivalent of making Jesus an African man.

Jesus was from the Levant, and would have looked much like a modern-day Egyptian, Palestinian, Israeli or Syrian.

So I wouldn't put that much stock in the iconic Westernised blonde and fair-skinned Jesus. And bear in mind if you go to Ethiopia, Christian for ~1500 years, the Ethiopian Orthodox often portrays him as black. The point being, icons can easily be adapted to meet people's desires.

So why not a black Ariel?

 

[davidmc1158_v1legacy]

Because Mulan is set in historic China, and the Little Mermaid is set under the sea.

Yeah, but which sea?

I quite like the idea of it being set off the coast of Great Yarmouth. The whole show would've been about whether it was better to live above or under the water, because they're equally shit and likely to give you tetanus.

(As you may be able to tell, I've never seen The Little Mermaid, but I have been to Great Yarmouth. More than once.)

Set a new Little Mermaid off the coast of Innsmouth, Massachusetts. Make her and her entire family Deep Ones. I'm sure the musical numbers would be magnificent!

 

[Dalisclock]

OK, good, so you concede there are certain characteristics that if changed would alter the character to an unacceptable degree. Why isn't ethnicity one of them? Almost everyone here seems to have decided a priori that The Little Mermaid's race is so irrelevant it's beneath discussion. The other upcoming live action Disney release being discussed on this forum is Mulan. Nobody is suggesting Mulan be portrayed by a black actress. Why?

Because Mulan is set in historic China, and the Little Mermaid is set under the sea.

I would add to this and argue that Mulan being Chinese and female are kinda central to the entire plot and you can't change them without causing significant problems.

Changing Ariel's skin color affects nothing, especially since Mermaids are fictional and anything beyond "Mermaid and Human relationship" isn't relevant to the plot. That and the little Mermaid isn't particularly tied to reality anyway.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

The complainers are just the same mouth-breathers who said "Hollywood needs bankable stars" when Dragonball and Ghost in the Shell were whitewashed, but completely lost their pathetic little minds when Idris Elba was cast as Heimdall. Their fragile egos can't handle not having everything be about them.

 

[Zeras]

Is pretty much iconic to culture at this point. Having a Black Actress be this Ariel is the equivalent of making Jesus an African man.

Jesus was from the Levant, and would have looked much like a modern-day Egyptian, Palestinian, Israeli or Syrian.

So I wouldn't put that much stock in the iconic Westernised blonde and fair-skinned Jesus. And bear in mind if you go to Ethiopia, Christian for ~1500 years, the Ethiopian Orthodox often portrays him as black. The point being, icons can easily be adapted to meet people's desires.

So why not a black Ariel?

You must be very lucky, since I've never seen a picture of a blond blue-eyed Jesus/Joshua!

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Some of the oldest representations of Jesus have him look like a typical Mediterranean person with olive skin and brown eyes/hair. Talking about over a thousand years old paintings, have seen some of those in person in some Greek isle monasteries (remember, the new testament was originally written in Greek). So yeah he's neither sub-saharan African nor Norwegian. Though I did enjoy that black Jesus play episode of the Boondocks.

 

[Hawki]

https://au.ign.com/articles/2019/07/08/terry-crews-petitions-himself-to-be-king-triton-in-disneys-the-little-mermaid

Terry Crews as King Triton.

Guess that makes sense genetically.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

https://au.ign.com/articles/2019/07/08/terry-crews-petitions-himself-to-be-king-triton-in-disneys-the-little-mermaid

Terry Crews as King Triton.

Guess that makes sense genetically.

They said something that the story is gonna be in Jamaica.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Is pretty much iconic to culture at this point. Having a Black Actress be this Ariel is the equivalent of making Jesus an African man.

Jesus was from the Levant, and would have looked much like a modern-day Egyptian, Palestinian, Israeli or Syrian.

So I wouldn't put that much stock in the iconic Westernised blonde and fair-skinned Jesus. And bear in mind if you go to Ethiopia, Christian for ~1500 years, the Ethiopian Orthodox often portrays him as black. The point being, icons can easily be adapted to meet people's desires.

So why not a black Ariel?

Better comparison then. Making DISNEY'S Ariel black is the equivalent of making Bruce Wayne black.

But regardless the reason they casted Halle Bailey as Ariel is because she's a great singer and is gonna make Pop /Hip-Hop remixes of Part Of Your World and what not.

 

[Hawki]

Better comparison then. Making DISNEY'S Ariel black is the equivalent of making Bruce Wayne black.

No, it isn't.

I mean...okay, the best case one has for Ariel being white is that the original story is Danish in origin, and (extending this to Disney canon), that we know that the series takes place somewhere in the proximity of Europe in the 18th century. That, and Atlantica/King Triton are taken from Greek mythology. Still, at the end of the day, mermaids are fictional, and whatever the history of mermaids in its setting, they're ultimately free to operate as the writers want them. And if the argument's fidelity to the source material, Disney threw that out the window with the original film.

Bruce Wayne being black however is more difficult. However crazy the DC multiverse gets, it's still obstensibly our world to at least some extent. So if the Waynes are an old American family that accumulated wealth over the generations, it's not impossible for them to be black, but if we're assuming that the history of the US remains the same in the DC universe, it would be difficult. Not impossible, but difficult. So as outlandish as Batman is, him being white does admittedly stretch credulity slightly less than him being black.

That said, I'd argue that black!Batman is kind of redundant at this point since Batwing is a character that exists. Same reason why black!Peter Parker is kind of redundant as well since Miles Morales exists as well, and the MCU multiverse is all the richer for it.

Or it at least gave me the best Spider-Man movie made with Miles as the lead that is. Can't comment on the comics.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Better comparison then. Making DISNEY'S Ariel black is the equivalent of making Bruce Wayne black.

Bruce Wayne? Not really. Pretending to be a clueless rich guy wouldn't work quite the same if Bruce Wayne was black.

Now, Aquaman, maybe. Not because of the underwater thing, but because he's a not-quite human that spends most of his time in not-human society.

 

[Batou667]

I'm honestly not sure if you're saying "Yeah, representation matters, not having it sucks" or "Audiences need to grow the hell up and learn to identify with protagonists who don't mirror them exactly"?

Both.

I feel bad borderline necro-ing a thread with no posts for a week but I also feel bad letting this go unanswered.

You realise those two statements I made before are kind of contradictory, right? Or at least, they can be used to argue AGAINST race-swapping just as easily as they can be used to argue the case for. To wit:

Representation is important for black and ethnic minority kids. It should logically follow that representation is important for white kids too.

It's not crucial for a character to exactly fit the same demographics of a white kid for them to be able to identify with them and enjoy the story. This should then apply to minority kids too, right?

I feel like the elephant in the room here is that everyone has decided that these considerations of principle, of what's good for the goose being good for the gander, of providing a level playing field - has all been discarded because "we" have decided that minority rights are more important. If it feels progressive or will please a historically marginalised group, then make the change, end of. Remarkably, I think Saelune gave one of the most honest contributions to this discussion: changing an established character is annoying, it messes with the canon, it upsets the fans, but it's gotta be done because White Man's Burden.

I'd rather nobody put hyperbolic words in my mouth about White Genocide or similar, but I will note the global population of people of European descent is a minority of about 20% of the planet. And the US is projected to be majority nonwhite by 2045. So, objections to erasing white characters from media may not be as ridiculous or unfounded as the detractors may suggest...

And just to reiterate one more time, I have no objection at all to increasing visible diversity through the creation of new IPs that focus on mixed or POC casts. That's both a predictable, and indeed desirable, outcome of living in a multicultural society that values its citizens of all backgrounds (for you, USA, for me, cosmopolitan Europe). But I'd like to see that achieved by increasing what's out there, not through blackwashing. I do hope people can see the distinction I'm making here, even if they may not agree with it.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Representation is important for black and ethnic minority kids. It should logically follow that representation is important for white kids too.

Sure. But I think that there already is a white Disney Princess. Possibly more than one.

And the US is projected to be majority nonwhite by 2045. So, objections to erasing white characters from media may not be as ridiculous or unfounded as the detractors may suggest...

Majority non-white in that "white" will still be the largest ethnicity, but will be outnumbered by everyone else if you lump "everyone else" (including mixed racial) in together. So, pretty ridiculous and unfounded.

Hell, they just re-did Cinderella and Beauty and the Beast a few years ago with white people, I don't think we need to worry about Disney abandoning white people just yet. Or, you know, ever.

If Disney decided to re-do every movie with black princesses, ok, that'd be weird, but I don't see this becoming a trend.

And just to reiterate one more time, I have no objection at all to increasing visible diversity through the creation of new IPs that focus on mixed or POC casts. That's both a predictable, and indeed desirable, outcome of living in a multicultural society that values its citizens of all backgrounds (for you, USA, for me, cosmopolitan Europe). But I'd like to see that achieved by increasing what's out there, not through blackwashing. I do hope people can see the distinction I'm making here, even if they may not agree with it.

Extend that to "no more lie action remakes of old Disney films at all" and you won't hear much disagreement.

Actually, if you've decided you've got to do the same exact story again, changing the ethnicity of the main character when it doesn't matter is probably the easiest way to not be exactly the same when you are being exactly the same.

 

[Hawki]

Hell, they just re-did Cinderella and Beauty and the Beast a few years ago with white people, I don't think we need to worry about Disney abandoning white people just yet. Or, you know, ever.

Those aren't really comparable to Little Mermaid. BatB is explicitly set in France, and in the context of the live-action film, likely in the early 19th century. I don't know if Cinderella takes explicit inspiration from any one European country, but Europe is still the inspiration.

BatB and Cinderella have to factor in real-world considerations to at least some extent, far more than Little Mermaid. It doesn't technically rule out blackwashing the leads, but it's a more noticable deviation than a fictional species from a fictional kingdom.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Hell, they just re-did Cinderella and Beauty and the Beast a few years ago with white people, I don't think we need to worry about Disney abandoning white people just yet. Or, you know, ever.

Those aren't really comparable to Little Mermaid. BatB is explicitly set in France, and in the context of the live-action film, likely in the early 19th century. I don't know if Cinderella takes explicit inspiration from any one European country, but Europe is still the inspiration.

BatB and Cinderella have to factor in real-world considerations to at least some extent, far more than Little Mermaid. It doesn't technically rule out blackwashing the leads, but it's a more noticable deviation than a fictional species from a fictional kingdom.

Well, I mean that if you want a Disney live action remake starring a white girl, you've got two from not long ago, not that I think it's significant that those two weren't cast with black girls. Though, they didn't have to do those films when they did, they could have picked others.

 

[Terminal Blue]

My absolutely favourite thing about this is the people claiming mermaids couldn't be black because they live deep under the sea and don't get very much sunlight..

I think that's very revealing.