Ooooookay. Why is the term "Mary Sue" being thrown around like paint?

[JimB]

Props for spelling Melllvar's name right!

I think I've done enough conventions to know how to spell "Melllvar."

 

[Zen Bard]

The term is thrown around so much because most people aren't really using it correctly.

While it's come to represent the perfect, infallible character, the initial intent was to satirize author wish fulfillment. The Mary Sue, Marty Stu or Gary Stu is usually perfect because he/she is an author avatar existing in his/her own universe.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

http://io9.gizmodo.com/please-stop-spreading-this-nonsense-that-rey-from-star-1749134275

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Hell, even the folks at Cracked.com weighed in on this:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-good-ideas-that-got-ruined-by-idiots_p2/

The current use of the term isn't necessarily wrong, but it's definitely strayed from the original definition and focuses on the symptom (the perfect character) and not the cause (author wish fulfillment).

I think people tend to use "Mary Sue" interchangeably with "Chosen One". The Chosen One is that amazing, overpowered character because s/he is the lynchpin on which the universe's destiny hangs.

I'd say Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker and Rey are "Chosen Ones", whereas Bella Swan, Wesley Crusher and perhaps even James Bond are "Mary Sues".

 

[K12]

I think people have started to use the term "Mary Sue" as a catch all criticism for when a character gets more attention, praise or skill than the audience feels they deserve. That's definitely worth criticising but there's no need to jump straight to the "Mary Sue" accusation. It's a much more serious criticism than people are treating it as, since a Mary Sue completely dominates every aspect of a work and renders it almost unenjoyable unless you happen to be the author (who's personal fantasy this comes from).

Any "chosen one" character will be treated as mega-important for flimsy "take our word for it" reasons.

Any gifted/ genius character is likely to be highly skilled with little training, maybe even besting experts on their first try.

Any highly charismatic or charming character will be liked or desired by most people with seemingly little effort.

Characters can be these things without being a Mary Sue. To me the most telling signs for a Mary Sue are that you instantly tell who the writer is expecting us to like or dislike by how they treat the character. The one member of team good guy who's a bit rude or dismissive invariably turns out to be the double-agen. The other main indicator is that the Mary Sue is always proven right, people who disagree with them (often implausibly aggressively) are bad and always get their come-uppance.

Really the whole Mary Sue thing is a fan-fiction phenomenon and its only started to feel more relevant now because of all the revivals of old universes with new or rebooted characters.

 

[elvor0]

A Mary Sue is an unbelievable perfect and successful (in universe) female character.
This has been extended to any female character that's not utterly useless by certain types who have an odd idea on how successful women can/should be.

Don't do that. That's not having a discussion or adding to the debate, it's just you passively aggressively setting yourself up to paint anyone you disagree with as sexist.

Perhaps, instead of indirectly calling people sexist because they believe a character to be a mary sue and you don't (whom doesn't necessarily need to be a female character), engage them in discussion, rather than just personally attacking them and stonewalling them with an ad hominem.

 

[JimB]

A Mary Sue is an unbelievable perfect and successful (in universe) female character. This has been extended to any female character that's not utterly useless by certain types who have an odd idea on how successful women can/should be.

Don't do that. That's not having a discussion or adding to the debate, it's just you passively aggressively setting yourself up to paint anyone you disagree with as sexist.

No, it's not. The underlined text very clearly indicates that not everyone who makes this complaint does so for sexist motivations. Anyone who feels that thaluikain has called him a sexist in this post when thlauikain said no such thing is someone who needs to examine his own conscience, because he seems to have difficulty telling the difference between thaluikain's voice and Jiminy Cricket's.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

A Mary Sue is an unbelievable perfect and successful (in universe) female character. This has been extended to any female character that's not utterly useless by certain types who have an odd idea on how successful women can/should be.

Don't do that. That's not having a discussion or adding to the debate, it's just you passively aggressively setting yourself up to paint anyone you disagree with as sexist.

No, it's not. The underlined text very clearly indicates that not everyone who makes this complaint does so for sexist motivations. Anyone who feels that thaluikain has called him a sexist in this post when thlauikain said no such thing is someone who needs to examine his own conscience, because he seems to have difficulty telling the difference between thaluikain's voice and Jiminy Cricket's.

At best it was muddying the waters by association. He has no rebuttal for thr non-sexist criticisms, but makes sure to point out a lot of it is coming from MRA-types.

So let's be clear (if we're playing the game I think is being played):

Rey (and let's throw in Poe "best pilot in the galaxy" Damaran) in this film is the baseline for a "competent" minority character. Yet, black people shouldn't feel shafted by the fact Finn is a decoy protagonist who's comparatively bumbling and inept getting his ass handed to him every fight (including by a stormtrooper). Is that right?

If asking for Rey to be dialed back a bit and show vulnerability every now and again is asking for a "weak" and "useless" female character and inherently sexist, Finn is a fucking minstrel sideshow.

Finn was my favorite character, btw. I'm just pointing out that bit of inconsistency.

 

[astrav1]

Now are we all cleared up here? Would you kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth and making assumptions about what I'm saying now?

Just in case, even though you are responding to somebody else, I hope you didn't think I was putting words in your mouth with my reply. I was just agreeing with the point you made while proposing an additional caveat of the statement that you may or may not have agreed with or felt it went without saying.

Not at all, I agree with what you've said for the most part when you replied to my post, it's just that we were talking about two different, but related things.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I read your point to say that there are characters to whom the Mary Sue tag can easily be applied correctly. Like Alice from the Resident Evil movies, as you pointed out. Which is more the statement "I think that [insert character] is a Mary Sue, because they're too perfect/overpowered/skilled/whatever". Am I correct? Because if that's the case then it's a perfectly valid criticism of the character, even if others don't agree, it's still valid because such opinions are subjective and personal.

On the other hand what I was calling out is basically this: "Rey/Finn/Furiosa/etc is a Mary Sue character that is specifically designed to make white men look stupid and evil! [insert long winded nonsensical misogynistic and/or racist rant]." Which isn't a valid criticism, it's basically using a character that the "critic" has a problem with because they even exist, then using it to fly off into a hate filled political spiel about society.

The latter use of Mary Sue is the one I've been seeing a lot of, though a lot do say the same of Rey, but I find that dishonest because the description of Rey sounds like a word for word description of Luke in A New Hope. Partially I think it's dishonest because people are holding Luke and Rey to different standards, despite them filling basically the same role in the respect movie they're each introduced in. So it comes off sounding a bit sexist to me, because people take Luke on face value, but not Rey, which sounds a lot like this:Robot Hugs comic on how people get treated different based on gender, in relation to being trusted, or dismissed as professional. [http://www.robot-hugs.com/technigal/]

Have you even seen any of these movies? Or read the news? And then actually thought about them critically? I feel like you need to rethink a lot of what you're saying, not that some of your previous points don't have merit.

 

[Erttheking]

I've already learned the hard way that some of the people that preach acceptance the most on this forum are some of the most pig headed and close minded. "If you aren't 100% with us, you are 100% against us."

Simply for not accepting that some things, even some terms, are not always always garbage, is enough to insult them. Don't waste your time telling them that there is grey. The world is black and white. Those they disagree with are evil. Those that they agree with, but make them look bad, are fiction or parody. As you said, it's tribalism at it's worst.

Let's be honest, being open minded towards what other people think when they don't agree with you is something that's been stamped out of this website a long time ago. Just about everyone who gets involved in serious discussions seems unwilling to conceded even the most trivial of points because it's giving ground to "the enemy."

No one is really open minded anymore, it's just "I'm always right, fuck you if you disagree with me, you're wrong." With everyone. You don't "Win" arguments, you just see which poster gets sick of the argument first. As a result, arguing online become more of a competition of endurance more than anything else, because someone saying "I'm wrong, I'm going to change my mind," is good cause to look outside to make sure the world isn't ending.

 

[Karathos]

Because it's only 2016 and we're still not used to competent female characters.

I was waiting for the inevitable "HEY GUYS IT'S THE CURRENT YEAR OKAY. THE -CURRENT YEAR-" as if that means something in a world where people are still being crucified and sold as slaves.

There's a very important distinction that needs to be made between a character being competent and stepping into Mary Sue territory. When characters immediately learn how to use completely foreign weapons and equipment without any prior knowledge being clear it's not competence, it's the first red flag on the way to a Mary Sue character.

Rey is very far from being one, and I expect the next movie to probably answer some of the reasons why she was able to do all she did. But with the information we currently have, the character of Rey is on a slippery slope.

 

[Beliyal]

Plus, they could've taken the time to explain her expertise with ships (especially re: the Falcon) just a little more, and with two basic points - 1) 'I've been crawling all over ships and vehicles since I was a kid', and 2) 'Who's been looking after/around the Falcon for the last X years, you or me? (silence) Right; gimme that spanner'

What? Your number 1 is in the movie. Literally the first sequence when Rey appears and we are introduced to the character, we see her crawling all over ships and vehicles as a scavenger. That's her job and has been for many years, as we see her familiar with it, her having a routine and equipment necessary to work this job and her being familiarized with the whole ordeal (where to sell, cleaning the equipment because she knows it might fetch a higher price, clearly looking for a specific piece for which she knows is useful and will sell).

It's also strongly implied that she is familiar with the Falcon by her commenting that it's "garbage" (how would she know it's garbage if she never explored or at least listened to people talking about the ship?) and by her knowing which unnecessary parts Unkar Plutt had installed in it. Aside from this being heavily implied in the movie itself and I had no troubles catching it, it is further confirmed in the novelization of the movie where it states that she has been inside the Falcon, mostly at night, to look around. Now, I don't think a movie should need extra information coming from other media, but as I said, this was pretty apparent to me from the context of the stuff presented in the movie itself. When I read the novelization, I wasn't particularly surprised, nor did I see this as new information.

(i.e., how/why she's so good with the Force so quickly, not to mention her 'skill' with a sword)

She's not that good with the Force. She mildly resisted during literal torture (which makes sense as her Force power is innate and clearly would activate in times of great stress and pain), managed a mind-trick after three tries on an already mind-compromised individual (a Stormtrooper was the easiest possible target; it has been previously established in the movie that they are trained through brainwashing, indoctrination and conditioning. Not exactly the most strong-willed subject. And it still took her three tries). She managed to summon a lightsaber that was previously established as "calling out for her." These are traits of a protagonist and definitely not traits of someone who's incredibly good with the Force. It's not different from when Luke had the Force for half an hour and then used it to destroy a Death Star without targeting while flying a ship he has never flown before. He did it because he's the protagonist with innate Force power and flying skills; both come from his heritage. Both Luke and Rey are good with the Force for the same reasons. It's almost as if Rey is supposed to mirror Luke directly.

Her skill with the sword is terrible. She had a mild skill with a martial weapon because she was trained with the staff, but that's about it. She held the saber wrong, flailed aimlessly, did literally nothing useful in the first part of the duel and was constantly pushed back. She prevailed only because Kylo reminded her of the Force and she let it guide her (khmLukekhm). And even then, she continued to flail, only with more ferocity and determination. Then she downed (not even fainted) a physically and emotionally exhausted opponent who was bleeding out from a wound made by a weapon that was previously established to OHKO anyone hit by it.

These things have been explained in the movie. I don't find it necessary to hammer them down for the viewer by having them be reiterated in episodes VIII and IX through boring exposition dialogues where two people stand in a room and have a meaningless conversation for half an hour. TFA is not perfect, but it did visual storytelling very well for all characters.

 

[Karathos]

The thing that confused/annoyed me about the Force persuasion scene was the fact she knew how to do it to begin with. Just because you know how to hit keys on a piano doesn't mean you spontaneously play Mozart.

 

[Hoplon]

The thing that confused/annoyed me about the Force persuasion scene was the fact she knew how to do it to begin with. Just because you know how to hit keys on a piano doesn't mean you spontaneously play Mozart.

Because literally in the scene before Ren pushes at her mind to try to get her to tell him what she saw. she experiences it, then tries it and fails the first two times.

 

[the_dramatica]

Litscrubs like to say mary sue means self insert, a common problem with fanfic. However, the common use of it means an "infallable" (usually only slightly smarter than all the other completely retarded characters), linear character that isn't interesting.

Pretty much 80% of all characters in all writing across all types of media fit into this, and that is why the word is thrown around. If you feared for anybodies life by the end of the new star wars or fast and furious you clearly can't find trends.

 

[jklinders]

Caveat, I'm a little guilty of throwing it around myself.

Basically a Mary Sue is any character written specifically as a self insert character for the author in the story. The term came out as a direct result of an especially shittily written fan fic featuring a character of that name who was a flawless self insert type trope in that story.

There is frequently no basis for the existence of this characters apparently inexhaustible abilities. There are frequently very few flaws either. Any flaws that they do have are frequently of the type that could be called endearing or cute. Also, a Sue character usually is immune from criticism in universe for actions that other characters stoned to death.

Basically any character that defies the internal logic of a story to give themselves teh spotlight can be called a sue, but it should not just be tossed around lightly.

http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm

The litmus test above can be useful in helping understand the concept better.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

The problem with the term "Mary Sue" is that it's subjective. Often times it's put on a character someone doesn't like (for example: Xion from the Kingdom Hearts seres, who, admittedly, might actually be an deconstruction of the concept.)

In fanfiction terms, it's the author's pet creation who takes all the glory and ruins canon. I admit I've been guilty of this in the past when I was young and inexperienced. It's also what keeps me from making stories now, as I'm paranoid my characters will be labeled as Sues... though would it be "better" if it was more subjective than obvious?

I mean, look at Bella Swan, she's so much a Mary Sue it's not even funny...

 

[maninahat]

The thing that confused/annoyed me about the Force persuasion scene was the fact she knew how to do it to begin with. Just because you know how to hit keys on a piano doesn't mean you spontaneously play Mozart.

Because literally in the scene before Ren pushes at her mind to try to get her to tell him what she saw. she experiences it, then tries it and fails the first two times.

And apparently no one finds it weird when we see Luke Skywalker intuiting and learning to do completely new force tricks on the fly (knowing exactly when to make a million to one shot, pulling a lightsaber across a cave, Leia being able to feel her stuck, wounded brother etc). The fact that characters can do magic as long as they plug in to the space mana is well a established yet deliberately vague concept, repeated across the movies. Why are people finding that odd now?

 

[Dazzle Novak]

The thing that confused/annoyed me about the Force persuasion scene was the fact she knew how to do it to begin with. Just because you know how to hit keys on a piano doesn't mean you spontaneously play Mozart.

Because literally in the scene before Ren pushes at her mind to try to get her to tell him what she saw. she experiences it, then tries it and fails the first two times.

And apparently no one finds it weird when we see Luke Skywalker intuiting and learning to do completely new force tricks on the fly (knowing exactly when to make a million to one shot, pulling a lightsaber across a cave, Leia being able to feel her stuck, wounded brother etc). The fact that characters can do magic as long as they plug in to the space mana is well a established yet deliberately vague concept, repeated across the movies. Why are people finding that odd now?

Luke makes a shot all of the other pilots were expected to be able to make and struggled to Force Pull his lightsaber when it was literally an arm's length away (in his second movie). All this after being jumped by a sandperson and shoved to the ground/bullied at Mos Eisley among other gaffes and talked down to by Han.

Rey Force pulls Luke's lightsaber from like 20 feet away while it's being Force pulled by an at least semi-trained Sith apprentice after using the Mind Trick Luke wouldn't use until his third film, resisting Force mind rape, and bo-staffing the fuck out of three sandpeople and piloting the fuck out of the Millennium Falcon and earning Han Solo's admiration from jump.

Luke was not unflappable and cool in A New Hope. Han had way more swagger and charisma plus a cool ship. Leia was braver and the Rebel leader. Obi-Wan was wiser. Luke doesn't even use his lightsaber in combat until the end of Empire Strikes Back and loses that fight.

That's the difference: ANH Luke's TFA analog isn't Rey; it's Finn. Rey is a mix of Han, Leia, and RotJ Luke.

 

[Parasondox]

Now we have "Mary Sue". I tried looking up the meaning towards this term and I haven't really found a straightforward answer.

You are either a liar or downright incompetent.
Because the very first link google gives you is the Wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

The third option. A lying, incompetent pill popper, high on meds at the time. Yes, I plead guilty. Point I was making was when looking further, many people have their own personal meaning towards the term. It inks to the same true meaning but often over stretched. I just wanted some light fun with a side of winter, Fawkes.