Ooooookay. Why is the term "Mary Sue" being thrown around like paint?

[JimB]

At best it was muddying the waters by association.

I disagree. thaluikain was quite clear in establishing that there are limits to the number of people making sexist complaints, so if anyone can't perceive that he's not calling you personally (general you, not specific you) a sexist, then I put that at the feet of a failure of reading comprehension, not thaluikain being non-specific.

He has no rebuttal for the non-sexist criticisms, but makes sure to point out a lot of it is coming from MRA-types.

How the term "Mary Sue" gets used is what the conversation is about. The way MRAs use it is relevant to the discussion. Defending a character who frankly doesn't need defense isn't really part of it.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

It's never been just female, Mary Sue is a unisex title for any character who is basically perfect. Try thinking before you comment.

I actually can't think of a single character who got widespread accusations of being a mary sue who wasn't female. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are House and Batman, and those have only come up in "Look at these male Mary-Sue characters that don't get called out for it" discussions

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I've only really been seeing it used for Rey in the new Starwars film (And NEVER against any male protagonist for some reason), and a lot of it is a dumb bandwagon jumping. I'm seeing a lot try to implicate her as one for a lot of reasons most people ignore for the sake of being able to hate Rey.

I mean it's not like the Star Wars page doesn't describe her as a "gifted mechanic, pilot and warrior" by the time the movie starts?
Oh wait, it does.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/rey
And it's about as Spoiler free as it gets.
"Before the Awakening" explains some of this stuff in more detail, like how she's such a talented pilot. As if her Rebel Pilot fandom wasn't any sort of a clue, either.

Spoiler: as to her fight,

http://imgur.com/gallery/7EhqwbF
is a fun way of explaining a fair chunk. It's something almost no one brings up when looking at why Kylo lost, and honestly, I've seen more than a few people say "Oh, I forgot about that" after it's brought up.
Kylo basically gave her a tutorial on how to use the Force. It might have awakened something from her past as well.
The strong visions that included Obiwan, and Yoda that freaked her out so badly she fled, and got captured didn't kinda hint at anything? The fact it came from the Light Saber of Luke Skywalker who picked up the force extremely quickly either? Can't wait for the inevitable reveals in future movies as to why she's talented?

 

[elvor0]

A Mary Sue is an unbelievable perfect and successful (in universe) female character. This has been extended to any female character that's not utterly useless by certain types who have an odd idea on how successful women can/should be.

Don't do that. That's not having a discussion or adding to the debate, it's just you passively aggressively setting yourself up to paint anyone you disagree with as sexist.

No, it's not. The underlined text very clearly indicates that not everyone who makes this complaint does so for sexist motivations. Anyone who feels that thaluikain has called him a sexist in this post when thlauikain said no such thing is someone who needs to examine his own conscience, because he seems to have difficulty telling the difference between thaluikain's voice and Jiminy Cricket's.

You did read what he said yes? Just because he didnt use the exact word "sexist" doesn't mean he's not implying it. I'm also not under the impression that he's referring to me, I'm criticizing his stance, because of the nebulous nature of "some types" and it fustrates me when people utilize the sexist/racist/ist stance on subjects that are not so black and white, because unless the person flat out says something that is undeniably "ist", indicating that because they feel a character needs toning down, it implys they they have "odd ideas on how successful women can/should be", isn't fair.

 

[Spider RedNight]

As per everyone else, it's being thrown around because people think it can sum up why they don't like the character they're accusing. Sometimes it checks out, though [See. Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way]

That being said, I can see why Rey would get the "Mary Sue" name thrown but honestly, I didn't even think about it during the movie - I just thought it was badass to see a lead chick wielding a lightsaber and fighting (albeit poorly). And I do agree that Katniss fits better than Rey.

 

[Erttheking]

An interesting thing I realized about Mary sues is that they usually appear more often on continuation of shows, Avatar and Star Wars for example, I think that american writers tend to try to "oversell" female characters to be as good as the male heroes (if not more) but end up losing the "character" in the progress.

Why is it every time you talk about stuff like this you come back to America? And why is it you talk about America like Americans lean towards one type of female character when we tend to have a bit more variety than that? I mean you tend to get a lot of variety in a country where you can fit countries inside of states like Texas.

 

[Pseudonym]

If I ever need a painter, I won't ask you. Throwing paint around is a bad way to paint.

In any case, it's a popular insult nowadays. Not much to say about it, I think.

 

[wizzy555]

Luke makes a shot all of the other pilots were expected to be able to make and struggled to Force Pull his lightsaber when it was literally an arm's length away (in his second movie). All this after being jumped by a sandperson and shoved to the ground/bullied at Mos Eisley among other gaffes and talked down to by Han.

Rey Force pulls Luke's lightsaber from like 20 feet away while it's being Force pulled by an at least semi-trained Sith apprentice after using the Mind Trick Luke wouldn't use until his third film, resisting Force mind rape, and bo-staffing the fuck out of three sandpeople and piloting the fuck out of the Millennium Falcon and earning Han Solo's admiration from jump.

Luke was not unflappable and cool in A New Hope. Han had way more swagger and charisma plus a cool ship. Leia was braver and the Rebel leader. Obi-Wan was wiser. Luke doesn't even use his lightsaber in combat until the end of Empire Strikes Back and loses that fight.

That's the difference: ANH Luke's TFA analog isn't Rey; it's Finn. Rey is a mix of Han, Leia, and RotJ Luke.

I think there's three possible saves that can transpire:

1) Rey has had training she just can't remember/we haven't heard about
2) She is a super-powered force chosen one
3) Luke was never a particularly good jedi to begin with and that was just fan head-cannon.

or

we just accept this as it would be boring to see another jedi training arch.

 

[Asita]

It's never been just female, Mary Sue is a unisex title for any character who is basically perfect. Try thinking before you comment.

I actually can't think of a single character who got widespread accusations of being a mary sue who wasn't female. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are House and Batman, and those have only come up in "Look at these male Mary-Sue characters that don't get called out for it" discussions

Oh come on, you've never seen "The Room"? Or "Grown Ups"? Or "I now pronounce you Chuck and Larry?"


...okay I can see why you might have not wanted to watch those things <.<, but it greatly reduces your ability to think of these sorts of things if you don't expose yourself to horrible movies.

Oh wait, thought of another one; "Silent Night: Deadly Night 2" <.<

...And neither of you mention Wesley Crusher? He is one of the less ambiguous canonical examples in fiction, due in no small part from Eugene Wesley Roddenberry himself openly admitting that Wesley was an idealized version of his younger self.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

...And neither of you mention Wesley Crusher? He is one of the less ambiguous canonical examples in fiction, due in no small part from Eugene Wesley Roddenberry himself openly admitting that Wesley was an idealized version of his younger self.

I'll grant you he is a solid example, but TNG ended in 1994, some 21-22 years ago depending on how you wanna count. Some people posting here weren't even born, or were too young to realize what was going on.
A robot chicken joke later, and he's still not all that fresh in our minds.

 

[Thaluikhain]

A Mary Sue is an unbelievable perfect and successful (in universe) female character. This has been extended to any female character that's not utterly useless by certain types who have an odd idea on how successful women can/should be.

It's never been just female, Mary Sue is a unisex title for any character who is basically perfect. Try thinking before you comment.

Excepting, of course, that there exists seperate terms such as Gary Stu or Marty Stu for male versions.

Hell, TVtropes even had a long argument over whether it was even possible for a male character to be like that a few years back.

 

[Asita]

A Mary Sue is an unbelievable perfect and successful (in universe) female character. This has been extended to any female character that's not utterly useless by certain types who have an odd idea on how successful women can/should be.

It's never been just female, Mary Sue is a unisex title for any character who is basically perfect. Try thinking before you comment.

Excepting, of course, that there exists seperate terms such as Gary Stu or Marty Stu for male versions.

Hell, TVtropes even had a long argument over whether it was even possible for a male character to be like that a few years back.

There are, but Gary and Marty never really caught on to the extent that Mary did, and the distinction between Mary and Marty/Gary is a purely artificial divide between male and female examples of the exact same phenomena. Consequentially Mary Sue tends to be employed as a catch-all term for both sexes.

 

[RedDeadFred]

I think Mary/Gary has almost evolved to mean a character with no interesting flaws. They author might put something in like "they're clumsy" or some meaningless shit like that, but really, they're just the perfect snowflake. I almost never see people using the term as it was originally intended.

Hell, some people just use it against characters they didn't like as some weird justification for them to take the intellectual high ground when they, in reality, have no clue what they're talking about. You see the same thing when people regularly say a story was poorly written when they really just didn't like it. It's just another vague detractor people can throw around to make their opinions sound like they deserve more weight.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Oh come on, you've never seen "The Room"? Or "Grown Ups"? Or "I now pronounce you Chuck and Larry?"

Oh, I definitely think that there are plenty of male Mary-Sues, but what I was commenting on was how I've never seen one that was widely considered one.

...And neither of you mention Wesley Crusher? He is one of the less ambiguous canonical examples in fiction, due in no small part from Eugene Wesley Roddenberry himself openly admitting that Wesley was an idealized version of his younger self.

I recently watched TNG, and I cannot agree with this more. That character might not be as bad as someone like Anastasia Steel, but he's pretty damn bad. Still haven't heard general complaint about him being a Mary Sue, but I might just be too young to have seen it.

 

[DefunctTheory]

I recently watched TNG, and I cannot agree with this more. That character might not be as bad as someone like Anastasia Steel, but he's pretty damn bad. Still haven't heard general complaint about him being a Mary Sue, but I might just be too young to have seen it.

He's usually considered more of a Creator's Pet. Creator's Pet trumps Mary Sue, when it comes to things that are terrible about characters, so why bother bitching about the little stuff?

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

So what? So what if they're crying Mary Sue because it suits their narrative? They would shout that women are inherently evil if they thought it would fly. What you're doing here is just like saying "people are accusing Bill Cosby of being a rapist but some of those people are nasty and stupid tumblrinas so it must be bullshit."

So what? Well the what is that they're devaluing a term used for critique for their sectarian political agendas, causing it to loose it's value as a valid criticism of a fictional character.

The only person I've seen calling Rey a Mary Sue is Max Landis (a writer) on his youtube channel, and considering that youtube channel has a series called "Girl Stories" that focus' entirely on the experiences of women I'm fairly confident he's not an MRA or whatever.

Great, that's beside the point I've been making, which is that "Mary Sue" is being used as a buzzword for "character I hate for political reasons solely". Also I've already said numerous times, if someone believes a character is a Mary Sue as a critique of the character because they see the character presented as too perfect, or such, that's a valid use of the term. I didn't say "everyone using the term Mary Sue is an evil MRA!" I just pointed out that the ones I see misusing the term egregiously are parties who have issue with competent women. That doesn't make the actual term by the definition of what a Mary Sue character is an invalid critique and I never tried to frame it that way.

You need to let go of your tribalism, you'll see the world in a much more nuanced way if you do.

I've seen a lot of what you've posted in the past, plus you just finished putting a whole bunch of words in my mouth that are not mine, while at the same time attributing attitudes to me that also are not mine. So why don't you go ahead and take your own advice and avoid misrepresenting others.

I've already learned the hard way that some of the people that preach acceptance the most on this forum are some of the most pig headed and close minded. "If you aren't 100% with us, you are 100% against us."

Simply for not accepting that some things, even some terms, are not always always garbage, is enough to insult them. Don't waste your time telling them that there is grey. The world is black and white. Those they disagree with are evil. Those that they agree with, but make them look bad, are fiction or parody. As you said, it's tribalism at it's worst.

I'm not sure that applies to Kyuubi, out of hand, but I can't say I've seen too many interactions with him/her. Really just venting after a particularly bad and pissy interaction I had a while back.

As for Rey being a Mary Sue, I can kinda see it, but don't think she is. As I already said, the term is largely meaningless.

I get the tribalism thing, which is why I personally try to keep an open mind on the concept of gray areas in concepts. Still being trans I find a lot of situations where people say something is a gray area, but they're objectively wrong about what they're saying. Still that's neither here nor there. Although I will say some people who talk about tribalism, are very guilty of it themselves, like calling someone out for an observation about a group.

Have you even seen any of these movies? Or read the news? And then actually thought about them critically? I feel like you need to rethink a lot of what you're saying, not that some of your previous points don't have merit.

Well I've looked a lot in to Furiosa and similar characters, in Furiosa's case in particular, I'm just not a Mad Max fan so I dove head long into the spoilers. I read lots of news on a lot of characters who get accused of being Mary Sue characters, which I don't generally buy on word of mouth alone, unless there is a lot of really good supporting evidence for the claim. So I try to think critically about characters, especially ones that get called "Mary Sue", but two caveats there: The first is that I try to enjoy a character as they're portrayed before examining them deeply. The second is I can enjoy a Mary Sue character, provided that the character isn't an asshat that's treated perfect, like say Riddick in The Chronicles of Riddick. As for Rey and The Force Awakens in general, I can't say much, as a Star Wars fan who hasn't seen the movie yet, I'm avoiding news and discussion on the movie because I want to avoid the spoilers. I like to stay open minded and decide for my self in the long run when it comes to characters, especially when a character is getting a lot of hate from various "sides" sociological and political debates. Hope that clears things up.

 

[JimB]

You did read what he said yes?

Yes, and perhaps just as importantly, I didn't read what he didn't say.

Unless the person flat out says something that is undeniably "ist," indicating that because they feel a character needs toning down, implying they they have "odd ideas on how successful women can/should be" isn't fair.

For thaluikain to be implying such a thing, you need to demonstrate that he is applying that judgment unfairly to someone. So who specifically is he saying is motivated by sexism to criticize female characters but who is criticizing her for different reason, elvor0?